The Me Generation

[The Sum of Awe]

Right... so you want me to treat people differently, based on their status as being different. I dislike that, honestly, since the autistic people I know in real life do not want to be seen as different from regular people. I treat them like anyone else. Sometimes I have to repeat myself or speak a bit slower but that's not the same thing as walking on eggshells because they are autistic. Should I begin treating black people differently than white people, since black people on the internet feel the need to impress on me the fact they are black and somehow, that should mean something to me?

Having been diagnosed with autism myself, I have to say this summarizes how I feel. I would like to be treated like a regular person. And why should I have to tell people that I'm autistic for that to happen? Everyone is different and we change our behavior to fit with those people -- if someone is hard of hearing it's something you should pick up on through constant interaction with them, instead of getting mad that they ask "what did you say?" a lot until they tell you they have poor hearing. Or maybe you interpreted it as them not paying attention? Well in that case, still don't get mad because that is another quirk that could be unique to them. All you need to know is that this person asks "what did you say?" a lot and you may need to repeat yourself more often. Don't like it? Don't interact with them.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Well, I am 36, and I know what you mean: in our generation there was a lot of absent analysis perhaps, on the mainstream level. And we millennials probably represent one of the last generations where that was the case, I guess. As for me, I was merely shunted in spec ed. departments for about 8 years. The elementary school psychologist thought I had autism. I was developing in a way that was socially abnormal. I didn't make a lot of friends in the k-12 years, except abusive ones, and often wandered the playground alone, for example

I was not ever officially diagnosed with that, but in middle school, I think it was adhd that they wanted to label me with. But by the end of high school, they really wanted to phase me out of all this. Largely, I felt like I was simply 'observed' during those years, more than I was the subject of any kind of more active management. (well in elementary school, there was the trampoline I sometimes was sent to go on)

I have made a few extensive posts on my experience here, but don't really dwell on it. I have read a few books on it though, because the brain is obviously complicated, and puzzle-like, and one probably should read a few books about brain/mind stuff in any case

So you might be able to see from this, why I might want to think about, or read about neurology or psychology stuff at least a little bit. It does bother me if people don't believe that various variations in psychology exist - something like autism can seem invisible to a lot of people, for example. It can even sometimes be quite a puzzle, I think, for the person experiencing it, to get a clear objective view of it

Just a question, not trying to start a debate, but is it possible that you didn't make a lot of friends and your social development was "abnormal" because you were treated differently? (labeled autistic, labeled with ADHD, put into special ed for 8 years)?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

You know that emotional control is regulated by lots of things occuring at the level of neurobiology? Telling autistic people to just be better at emotional control is likely to be as useful as telling a clinically depressed person to just cheer up or someone with a hyperactive disorder to just chill.

I don't see the comparison. Autism isn't the inability to control your emotions, the biggest factor as I understood it is the lack of understanding social "rules" or "norms". I think treating autism as something to just accept instead of 'treat' is the wrong way to go about it. You wouldn't tell a schizoid to "just accept that you don't want to socialize and live a life of solitude", you'd likely encourage them to push themselves to bond in small ways and keep increasing that boundary pushing. You wouldn't tell someone with antisocial personality disorder to "accept that you have no empathy for others", you'd try to improve their behavioral health.

Same with autism, it is a behavioral disability that needs to be worked with. It's not impossible for an autistic person to learn social rules, it simply takes longer and more practice. Isolating autistic people, teaching them "it's okay that you had a mental breakdown in public" is counterproductive. Such a person would never be able to become independent.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I don't see the comparison. Autism isn't the inability to control your emotions, the biggest factor as I understood it is the lack of understanding social "rules" or "norms". I think treating autism as something to just accept instead of 'treat' is the wrong way to go about it. You wouldn't tell a schizoid to "just accept that you don't want to socialize and live a life of solitude", you'd likely encourage them to push themselves to bond in small ways and keep increasing that boundary pushing. You wouldn't tell someone with antisocial personality disorder to "accept that you have no empathy for others", you'd try to improve their behavioral health.

Same with autism, it is a behavioral disability that needs to be worked with. It's not impossible for an autistic person to learn social rules, it simply takes longer and more practice. Isolating autistic people, teaching them "it's okay that you had a mental breakdown in public" is counterproductive. Such a person would never be able to become independent.

There's a lot more to autism than learning social queues. In many cases it comes with neurotransmitter differences or completely differently formed amygdala which often means emotional regulation issues and sensory overload. And while there are treatment options you can't learn your way or willpower your way out of a differently configured brain. And trying to conceal autistic symptoms (known as masking) is extremely tiring if you can even do it at all. So expecting some patience and acceptance of non-neurotypical behavior is a must. And total independence or not needing disability care is sometimes just not possible.

There's a spectrum. Sometimes autistic people can blend with neurotypicals more or less seamlessly but sometimes that isn't the case.

 

[JustGeorge]

Having two kids on the spectrum, sometimes its helpful for people in the area to know what's going on, too.

My oldest used to absolutely meltdown if a train tooted, anywhere. A train would whistle a mile away, and he'd get antsy. Much closer, and we were looking at a screeching ball of fury. Sometimes he'd become violent and start hitting me.

Sometimes people would want to yell at him for his behavior, but that usually wasn't helpful. De-escalate first. Then address the behavior. No, its not okay to haul off and pop someone because you're upset over a train. But if I can explain to someone quickly "this is an autistic meltdown" it often prevents interference(unless I ask for something specific to help). Getting in the face of someone who's on sensory overload isn't usually productive. Once he was calmer, we could discuss a more productive way to deal with that anxiousness.

He did progress from that, thankfully. First with noise canceling headphones. Then, he decided he didn't want to deal with those, so he started trying to ease his way into train sounds. It finally stopped stressing him to a point where it was unmanageable, and to celebrate he decided he wanted to have his 12th birthday party at a park, right next to the city's trainyard. He's 16 now and scarcely thinks about trains. But he still struggles with the perfume and cologne from all the kids at school(it gives him a nauseous headache).

My second son has much more pronounced special needs. In some cases, its vital to know what's going on with him for his own safety. Most of the time an 8 year old walking down the block is not a problem. If someone sees him wandering, it is a problem. He is not always aware enough of his environment to be safe. He also has significant speech impairment and may not be able to communicate with strangers well enough to say where he's going or what he's doing. Its been helpful to be able to say to neighbors "we have an autistic son, and here is some things that are normal/not normal from him". Without this information, folks might just think we're placating a child with a discipline problem and be unwilling to help.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

There's a lot more to autism than learning social queues. In many cases it comes with neurotransmitter differences or completely differently formed amyglia which often means emotional regulation issues and sensory overload. And while there are treatment options you can't learn your way or willpower your way out of a differently configured brain. And trying to conceal autistic symptoms (known as masking) is extremely tiring if you can even do it at all. So expecting some patience and acceptance of non-neurotypical behavior is a must. And total independence or not needing disability care is sometimes just not possible.

There's a spectrum. Sometimes autistic people can blend with neurotypicals more or less seamlessly but sometimes that isn't the case.

That's true, there is a spectrum. But I also believe that society has been using these labels to 'excuse' these behaviors rather than trying to help overcome them. If someone leans more on the high-functioning side of autism and they are constantly told "it's okay because you're autistic" that is counterproductive, they're not learning anything. And I think there is a distinguishable difference between high-functioning and low-functioning autism and that's simply by looking at the level of comprehension this autistic person has. I'd say there are a lot of autistic people, capable of at least moderate comprehension and rationality, that are not being tutored or guided to try to control their behavior.

I wouldn't consider learning to control your emotional outbursts to be masking, I'd call it a skill you're strengthening yourself in the more you do it.

 

[idea]

As a teacher - had a situation with one student who was... getting on the nerves of other students... I was afraid a fight was going to break out. I had a private convo with one angry student - carefully hinted/divulged what *condition* was happening - and once the word got out, it was all rainbows and inclusion in there. From anger, to helpful.

It helps to know.

 

[Secret Chief]

As a teacher - had a situation with one student who was... getting on the nerves of other students... I was afraid a fight was going to break out. I had a private convo with one angry student - carefully hinted/divulged what *condition* was happening - and once the word got out, it was all rainbows and inclusion in there. From anger, to helpful.

It helps to know.

I'm just putting this out there. As a teaching assistant - I spend my working day being with students with varying conditions. Those with the most pronounced behavioural issues (constant talking, shouting out, going walkabout etc etc) take up a lot of the teacher's time, disrupt others (particularly those they are sitting by) so generally the value of that lesson is reduced. If I was a child sitting next to such a person I would be unimpressed; if I was a parent I'd also be well unimpressed. The school does all it can to support pupils with various issues, but it seems to be ineffective in a not insignificant number of cases.

 

[idea]

For that situation, it was hearing impairment - the student talked loudly / asked lots of questions due to hearing difficulties. I record class, have transcripts made for everyone who is ESOL too -

School isn't just learning math or whatever, it's learning social skills.

Nikola Tesla had *conditions* - it pays to connect with people who have *conditions*

Alexander Bell wasn't trying to invent a phone - he was trying to help his deaf mother hear. ... our greatest advancements come from helping and understanding one another.

 

[JustGeorge]

I'm just putting this out there. As a teaching assistant - I spend my working day being with students with varying conditions. Those with the most pronounced behavioural issues (constant talking, shouting out, going walkabout etc etc) take up a lot of the teacher's time, disrupt others (particularly those they are sitting by) so generally the value of that lesson is reduced. If I was a child sitting next to such a person I would be unimpressed; if I was a parent I'd also be well unimpressed. The school does all it can to support pupils with various issues, but it seems to be ineffective in a not insignificant number of cases.

As a parent with two kids who have required such teacher assistants, I have to say you guys do an excellent service. In my neck of the woods, the staff don't always get the recognition they deserve.

 

[Secret Chief]

As a parent with two kids who have required such teacher assistants, I have to say you guys do an excellent service. In my neck of the woods, the staff don't always get the recognition they deserve.

I'm open to remunerative appreciation! What is your take on the effect on other pupils and lesson quality? I don't have an "answer", it seems like squaring the circle.

 

[JustGeorge]

I'm open to remunerative appreciation! What is your take on the effect on other pupils and lesson quality? I don't have an "answer", it seems like squaring the circle.

I give you a compliment, you make me get a dictionary... I assure you, that won't happen again.

I'll be honest, what you're talking about is part of the reason we chose to continue homeschooling even after the schools opened. I agree with you here, and I am the parent of those 'disrupting'.

Having my middle son in the classroom setting was impossible for the teachers and other students. When I say he threw stuff, I mean large boxes of classroom supplies and furniture, not pencils and spit wads. School was simply a place to smear glue into the carpet for the giggles of it all. The more attention he would get, the more hyped he would get(he genuinely loves negative reactions). He was in a self contained classroom for kids with special needs for this reason, but the problem was he was intellectually too advanced to get much from being in there. His programs were written to make him appear profoundly handicapped so he could remain in there for the benefit of those working with him(I didn't know this until I'd pulled him out).

I understand why it was done; to benefit the greater good. However, I cringe to think what would have happened if we'd have left him in school. It wasn't their fault. Most were excellent teachers and staff. But they just didn't have the means to deal with him in a way in which he could reach his best potential. He was actually non verbal until we took him out of school. Within a month, he'd started talking. His teachers were in shock when they saw the change, and couldn't deny he was doing better at home.

What he needed, the schools weren't equipped to provide. I'm not trashing schools. They're vital for many. Its just they can't meet the needs of everyone. I don't have any answers to how to amend that, though, and I know not everyone has the ability(time or patience wise) to homeschool their kids that might benefit from it. Its a problem.

 

[Secret Chief]

I give you a compliment, you make me get a dictionary... I assure you, that won't happen again.

I'll be honest, what you're talking about is part of the reason we chose to continue homeschooling even after the schools opened. I agree with you here, and I am the parent of those 'disrupting'.

Having my middle son in the classroom setting was impossible for the teachers and other students. When I say he threw stuff, I mean large boxes of classroom supplies and furniture, not pencils and spit wads. School was simply a place to smear glue into the carpet for the giggles of it all. The more attention he would get, the more hyped he would get(he genuinely loves negative reactions). He was in a self contained classroom for kids with special needs for this reason, but the problem was he was intellectually too advanced to get much from being in there. His programs were written to make him appear profoundly handicapped so he could remain in there for the benefit of those working with him(I didn't know this until I'd pulled him out).

I understand why it was done; to benefit the greater good. However, I cringe to think what would have happened if we'd have left him in school. It wasn't their fault. Most were excellent teachers and staff. But they just didn't have the means to deal with him in a way in which he could reach his best potential. He was actually non verbal until we took him out of school. Within a month, he'd started talking. His teachers were in shock when they saw the change, and couldn't deny he was doing better at home.

What he needed, the schools weren't equipped to provide. I'm not trashing schools. They're vital for many. Its just they can't meet the needs of everyone. I don't have any answers to how to amend that, though, and I know not everyone has the ability(time or patience wise) to homeschool their kids that might benefit from it. Its a problem.

Sorry for the unintentional learning experience. I'll modify my language to suit.

In the UK there used to be (I think they are no more) "special schools" as distinct from the mainstream ones. What's your take on that idea?

 

[JustGeorge]

Sorry for the unintentional learning experience. I'll modify my language to suit.

In the UK there used to be (I think they are no more) "special schools" as distinct from the mainstream ones. What's your take on that idea?

My last name is a alternative spelling of 'sailor'. We speak as such.

We still have them. Originally, the psychiatrist wanted to send my son there. I fired her. The public system, even with the disadvantages afore mentioned, would offer far more than a 'special school' ever would for him. (I worked with clients at my old job that went to that school, so have some familiarity how it worked.) We also used to have schools here for kids with behavioral problems(educational disciplinary center was what they used to call it). I think they stopped those because throwing all those aggressive kids together made them....surprise, surprise, more aggressive.

They do serve a need for some. I can't say they're all bad. If it is almost certain the person will never likely gain independence and will be in an institutional setting indefinitely, then I would say its probably a good educational system for them. It will help them adjust into that lifestyle. But as people(young and old alike) often greatly mimic the people in their environment, trying to integrate them into the setting you want them in is vital, in my opinion. My oldest is now 16, and having spent so many years in the school system, I see clearly the influence where a person is educated can have(this can be positive, negative, or both).

On a side note, one thing I can say helped my oldest regulate his behavior was the kindness of others. It wasn't fail proof, but telling him to "stop jumping up and down" wasn't as effective as "how do you think it makes 'Emily' feel when you're jumping in her space?" Oh, we didn't want to upset her. We'll stop. (Of course, it wasn't under his control 100% at that time, but it gave him the care to start working on it.) Finding students and staff that they genuinely don't want to cause problems for, or are happy to please sometimes helps.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You draw the line, as in you refuse to use they/them pronouns for nonbinary people even though you've no better reason to disrespect them in such a way as people who refuse to use he/him for you based on the misinformed view that gender = sex?

No, I'll use "they/them". But I'm also not going to be continously snapped at people. No one "refuses" my pronouns because no one knows I'm trans irl unless I tell them, and the ones I tell obviously dgaf if I'm trans. I'm not in the same boat as them.

 

[JustGeorge]

No, I'll use "they/them". But I'm also not gokjg to be continously snapped at people who No one "refuses" my pronouns because no one knows I'm trans irl unless I tell them, and the ones I tell obviously dgaf if I'm trans. I'm not in the same boat as them.

I think sometimes people get a little too hot and bothered over honest mistakes. Sometimes you can't tell. I know some call everyone 'they/them', but that can be hard to get into that habit(and then some don't want to be a they/them, either). Gentle corrections, please.

Sometimes I stumble on words, and if I use 'he' and 'she' (or her and him) in the same sentence, my tongue ties, and I almost always mess it up. I don't know why; its not intentional. Its more of a physical mess up than a mental one. Sometimes I cringe if I fear someone in the sentence might take offense...

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think sometimes people get a little too hot and bothered over honest mistakes. Sometimes you can't tell. I know some call everyone 'they/them', but that can be hard to get into that habit(and then some don't want to be a they/them, either). Gentle corrections, please.

Sometimes I stumble on words, and if I use 'he' and 'she' (or her and him) in the same sentence, my tongue ties, and I almost always mess it up. I don't know why; its not intentional. Its more of a physical mess up than a mental one. Sometimes I cringe if I fear someone in the sentence might take offense...

Part of the problem is that many or most of the non-binary people don't transition beyond wanting to be called certain pronouns, and don't do anything to change their appearance. So you'll have pepple who obviously read as a man or a woman but want to be called a neopronoun. I've had some of them get attitudes with me and others, like one who got mad at a server at a restaurant for calling them a "she" when that's what they looked like, as if the server was supposed to automatically know. I felt bad for the server and honestly should've said something on her behalf. It's not my fault you just look like a female, and that's what the mind defaults to in a split second. Take it up with science or, you know, actually do something to look non-binary. Androgyny is something I can respect.

Personally, I'm not going to bother speaking to such people who are being that pushy and unreasonable.

 

[Yerda]

I don't see the comparison. Autism isn't the inability to control your emotions, the biggest factor as I understood it is the lack of understanding social "rules" or "norms". I think treating autism as something to just accept instead of 'treat' is the wrong way to go about it.

That's great. I'm making no recommendations about how to treat anything.

You wouldn't tell a schizoid to "just accept that you don't want to socialize and live a life of solitude", you'd likely encourage them to push themselves to bond in small ways and keep increasing that boundary pushing. You wouldn't tell someone with antisocial personality disorder to "accept that you have no empathy for others", you'd try to improve their behavioral health.

You're right, I wouldn't.

Same with autism, it is a behavioral disability that needs to be worked with. It's not impossible for an autistic person to learn social rules, it simply takes longer and more practice. Isolating autistic people, teaching them "it's okay that you had a mental breakdown in public" is counterproductive. Such a person would never be able to become independent.

I'm not making any judgement about people who "had a mental breakdown in public".

 

[Secret Chief]

My last name is a alternative spelling of 'sailor'. We speak as such.

We still have them. Originally, the psychiatrist wanted to send my son there. I fired her. The public system, even with the disadvantages afore mentioned, would offer far more than a 'special school' ever would for him. (I worked with clients at my old job that went to that school, so have some familiarity how it worked.) We also used to have schools here for kids with behavioral problems(educational disciplinary center was what they used to call it). I think they stopped those because throwing all those aggressive kids together made them....surprise, surprise, more aggressive.

They do serve a need for some. I can't say they're all bad. If it is almost certain the person will never likely gain independence and will be in an institutional setting indefinitely, then I would say its probably a good educational system for them. It will help them adjust into that lifestyle. But as people(young and old alike) often greatly mimic the people in their environment, trying to integrate them into the setting you want them in is vital, in my opinion. My oldest is now 16, and having spent so many years in the school system, I see clearly the influence where a person is educated can have(this can be positive, negative, or both).

On a side note, one thing I can say helped my oldest regulate his behavior was the kindness of others. It wasn't fail proof, but telling him to "stop jumping up and down" wasn't as effective as "how do you think it makes 'Emily' feel when you're jumping in her space?" Oh, we didn't want to upset her. We'll stop. (Of course, it wasn't under his control 100% at that time, but it gave him the care to start working on it.) Finding students and staff that they genuinely don't want to cause problems for, or are happy to please sometimes helps.

If I'd wanted a thoughtful and nuanced answer I'd have asked for it.
You surname is raisol?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Just a question, not trying to start a debate, but is it possible that you didn't make a lot of friends and your social development was "abnormal" because you were treated differently? (labeled autistic, labeled with ADHD, put into special ed for 8 years)?

Well, I see that you are 10 years younger than I am. I think it's important that I point something out about that - people from my generation, I suspect, were a lot less label-heavy than they would be for yours, I think. So that factors in, because it was more like a situation where maybe there weren't really so many ideas and labels, to sort of partition out difference, as much. But anyway, I was still treated differently, but I also treated others differently. I assume it was often my latter behavior which would spur the former

As well, there was a multi-variate thing going on with my life, which could have went to influence how I connected with others. My dad was a bad alcoholic, and not the social kind, and the kind of parenting that can from that, probably often does not foster sociability in kids, in and of itself.

But there is also a different way to answer your question - if by it, you mean that a person, having some internal difference, might benefit by being treated optimally, and gain a better hold on social development, then yes, I do believe that better results would probably occur