The Mens Rights /Issues "debate"?

[DallasApple]

[QUOTEOurs seem to hibernate during the day and only come out at night to prey on drunk drivers. That's pretty much OK with me. I don't want to be sharing the road with any drunk drivers. I don't really want to see them any other time unless I ask for them.][/QUOTE]

Yes we have drunk driving crack down too.

I will say on your comment about not seeing them unless you ask for them? That's the advantage here . The response time if you call is like 45 seconds.

And TOO funny on the hippie islands response to police presence! Did they get away with it???????

 

[Me Myself]

In fairness, Warren Farrell did write "We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting." You just can't say stuff like that without eliciting a certain amount of rage from date rape victims and their sympathizers.

And it is somewhat understandable to have such rage when you hear that out pf context.

He is saying that the word "no" while having inviting body language doesnt necessarily mean no.

At a time I was iny house with a woman we were warching game of thrones. I was sitting at my bed and she was sitting on a chair immidiately at the side of the bed. I slowly took out a thing from her hair she said "stop it" with a smile when I was playing with a part of her cloth and puting it kind of out.

She put the sutff in her hair back and put back the stuff of her cloth. After a while I did the same and she said the same. This happened three times, she was always simling and with a playful tone. The third time before she put the stuff back e phone rang and I got up and attended the call.

When I hang the phone and looked back at her, she was now sitting in the bed instead of the chair and had again put the thing in her hair and the stuff of her cloth and was trying to bite out her smile but failing to do so while forcefully looking at the other side.

Now, not even I am as naive to think "stop it" means "stop it" in such scenario and I can tell you she did look excited and I was certainly excited too.

Tone body language and similar factors are an extreme message changer.

Sarcasm is a good example of that.

 

[DallasApple]

He is saying that the word "no" while having inviting body language doesnt necessarily mean no.

This is just WRONG.Totally wrong.It does mean NO no matter what body language unless you have a discussion beforehand that she likes some sort of rape fantasy game which in that case you need a "safe word" .

Why would you ignore someones words coming out of there brain and decide you really know what they want based on body language instead?

People can experience sexual arousal even during rape.Men and women both.

 

[Revoltingest]

Even when "no" doesn't mean "no", tis always best to act as though "no" always means "no".
I'll go one better. Sometimes "yes" means "no", & drunk/drugged always means "no".

 

[Me Myself]

Why would you ignore someones words coming out of there brain and decide you really know what they want based on body language instead?

.

Are this two statements the same? :

You are right. i dont know what I was thinking

You are right, I dont know what I was thinking

Cme on. Saying the words are the absolute message is just ignorant.

Do you feel threatened when a friend tells you that if you do something she will kill you? Do you feel worried when a friend tells you if you do x I would die?

Wake up. Words have a context, and tone and body language are vital on the interpretation of such context. It is just reality.

If you think people dont do that in flirting then I... Well, I have no idea what to tell you, honestly.

 

[Alceste]

And it is somewhat understandable to have such rage when you hear that out pf context.

He is saying that the word "no" while having inviting body language doesnt necessarily mean no.

At a time I was iny house with a woman we were warching game of thrones. I was sitting at my bed and she was sitting on a chair immidiately at the side of the bed. I slowly took out a thing from her hair she said "stop it" with a smile when I was playing with a part of her cloth and puting it kind of out.

She put the sutff in her hair back and put back the stuff of her cloth. After a while I did the same and she said the same. This happened three times, she was always simling and with a playful tone. The third time before she put the stuff back e phone rang and I got up and attended the call.

When I hang the phone and looked back at her, she was now sitting in the bed instead of the chair and had again put the thing in her hair and the stuff of her cloth and was trying to bite out her smile but failing to do so while forcefully looking at the other side.

Now, not even I am as naive to think "stop it" means "stop it" in such scenario and I can tell you she did look excited and I was certainly excited too.

Tone body language and similar factors are an extreme message changer.

Sarcasm is a good example of that.

It's even worse in context. Not only does he say that a woman saying "no" when she actually does want sex is fraud, he says that men should never be prosecuted for ignoring the verbal objection and paying attention to what they believe to be "inviting body language" (keep in mind that most sex offenders persistently blame the victim for their crime and dramatically misjudge sexually inviting body language and behavior). He also claims that the only reason women say "no" when they actually want sex is to extort money and commitment from men and avoid sexual responsibility. He also says that the popularity of rape fantasy - for example in romance novels and films -is evidence that further evidence that women don't actually mean "no" when they say "no".

I hear what you're saying, but man, just play safe. Assume no actually means no, even if you think you're still picking up on a flirty kind of vibe. Even if you think its going to be a downer and ruin the mood, ASK HER if she genuinely wants you to stop, and tell her how freaking retarded it is for her to say "no" if she actually intends to have sex with you. That's not a fun and sexy game, it's a confusing and idiotic failure to communicate.

 

[DallasApple]

Even when "no" doesn't mean "no", tis always best to act as though "no" always means "no".
I'll go one better. Sometimes "yes" means "no", & drunk/drugged always means "no".

This is the advice I have given all three of my sons.For there protection and hers.Sometimes our minds(our true wishes) can be in conflict with our bodies.

If she is into some sort of game? Talk about it before hand.Like specifically when I say no or stop I don't "necessarily " mean that so if I really mean no or want you to stop it I will say 'pickle".If I say pickle and you don't stop you are at that point violating my true wishes.

 

[DallasApple]

That's not a fun and sexy game, it's a confusing and idiotic failure to communicate.

Not for me either.But there are some who get into "rape fantasy" . But they have it all worked out in advance. SAFE words.

 

[Alceste]

Even when "no" doesn't mean "no", tis always best to act as though "no" always means "no".
I'll go one better. Sometimes "yes" means "no", & drunk/drugged always means "no".

Exactly. It's not our job to decipher whether or not our partners want sex and make sure they get some if we suspect they might. Deciding whether they want it is their job, and we might as well take their word for it if they tell us they don't, even if they're doing this...

 

[Me Myself]

It's even worse in context. Not only does he say that a woman saying "no" when she actually does want sex is fraud, he says that men should never be prosecuted for ignoring the verbal objection and paying attention to what they believe to be "inviting body language" (keep in mind that most sex offenders persistently blame the victim for their crime and dramatically misjudge sexually inviting body language and behavior). He also claims that the only reason women say "no" when they actually want sex is to extort money and commitment from men and avoid sexual responsibility. He also says that the popularity of rape fantasy - for example in romance novels and films -is evidence that further evidence that women don't actually mean "no" when they say "no".

I hear what you're saying, but man, just play safe. Assume no actually means no, even if you think you're still picking up on a flirty kind of vibe. Even if you think its going to be a downer and ruin the mood, ASK HER if she genuinely wants you to stop, and tell her how freaking retarded it is for her to say "no" if she actually intends to have sex with you. That's not a fun and sexy game, it's a confusing and idiotic failure to communicate.

Oh trust me, to me the world would be an extremely awesome and simple place if it was that easy.

In the more sexual relationship I ve have I am continually asked to be e "man" and to not "ask so much" and to simply "take what I want" but the rituals of flirting are weird and hipocritical like most of the popular social rites and interactions (yes, I am very nerdy, thanks for noticing)

About the context, here it is:

http://i.imgur.com/cwSoc.png

I dont think he is talking about legal terms there. He is saying that saying no but acting sexually (acting sexually can be misrepresented to mean mysoginous stupidity or the actual purposeful attempt to seduce the man and flirt so they end up having sex) is a non straightfoward message.

It is easy to give a serious no. Anyone can do it. i know I have done it to sexual advances. I also know if I have used a less clear tone and body language she would have kept at it.

When you are giving a mesage you need to be clear. Saying "no" or flirting can very well just mean "I want you to keep playing"

Mst women I ve asked have said no more than once when they actually just wanted the man to keep trying because they want to feel "wanted" . Its part of the flirting game. You are supposed to know the rules.

I dont even like em. I would love it to be clear and contractual "by that you mean you want me to keep trying? I am just asking once, like which are the specific triggers?" Trust me, most men cant say that and not ruin the mood and most women here feel offended because you are making them feel like "sluts". The woman assumes he is an idiot who doesnt know how to flirt and go find someone else. No, not necessarily a "jerk" or someone that disrespects her, but someone that does read the full message instead of getting confused by the mere wording and playing on technicallities.

If we are going to expect humans to act like robots and follow technical commands on their normal regular life, flirting is the last place where it is reasonable to expect this to happen. It just wont. Sure, some women may think no means no, and sure,y that might be true for themselves but in my experience, most want you to be able to read between the lines.

 

[DallasApple]

Do you feel threatened when a friend tells you that if you do something she will kill you? Do you feel worried when a friend tells you if you do x I would die?

Yes I would if she was holding a knife and she had murderous tendencies.

Yes I would if she told me she was deathly allergic to onions and I was making her an onion salad.

DATE rape and RAPE exist.In large #'s.Your comparisons are extremes as to it might be "litterally" the case.Most likely not the case in most context.I wouldn't take it litterally without more evidence .Unlike someone saying "no" to sex is enough "evidence" for me they don't want to have sex with me.

A woman saying "no" to sex can not be compared to an off the cuff remark of "I feel like shooting someone" when they don't even own a gun.

 

[Alceste]

Not for me either.But there are some who get into "rape fantasy" . But they have it all worked out in advance. SAFE words.

Exactly.

The fact is that the significantly higher social and physical risks of sex for women make resistance a very rational act, even when we actually do want sex. Especially when I was younger, I was always conscious of a HUGE risk of being ****-shamed and ostracized if I had sex too soon, or with too many people, or with the wrong sort of people, etc. Hell, sometimes even one sexual escapade is enough to get you a "reputation". For example, that poor girl on the mainland who was bullied to death for sending a boy a picture of her with her top off. The bullies pursued her to a new school and were absolutely relentless. Also, if a young woman's social group (god forbid) concludes that she's "easy", she gets all kinds of really ugly attention from the creepiest guys around.

And even if a woman is tough enough not to be worried about the social consequences, there is always a possibility of not only disease but also pregnancy. So the flirting, kissing, making out, fondling, etc. might very reasonably be all she is interested in, so as not to have to deal with worries about pregnancy and disease.

Farrell's position is offensive because it completely side-steps these very rational and completely understandable concerns, and boils the whole issue of a verbal no from a woman who still wants to fool around down to fraud and extortion. She's not just concerned about her reputation or her health, she's lying, and she's only doing it so you'll pay for "the five Ds" - can't remember what they are but they start with drinks and end with a diamond.

His attitude is overtly hostile toward women and infused with a sense of sexual entitlement that just turns my stomach.

EVEN IF she actually wants to have sex, you don't have to flipping screw her, do you? Theoretically, couldn't you just go "OK, let's just make out then if you're OK with that"? It's FUN knowing you're making out with someone who wants to sex you up, then going home frustrated. Do that two or three times and she's gonna jump your bones herself and there will be no ambiguity. You don't HAVE TO make sure that your penis goes into a woman's vagina every single time you think she looks horny.

Jeez.

</rant>

 

[Me Myself]

Yes I would if she was holding a knife and she had murderous tendencies.

Yes I would if she told me she was deathly allergic to onions and I was making her an onion salad.

DATE rape and RAPE exist.In large #'s.Your comparisons are extremes as to it might be "litterally" the case.Most likely not the case in most context.I wouldn't take it litterally without more evidence .Unlike someone saying "no" to sex is enough "evidence" for me they don't want to have sex with me.

A woman saying "no" to sex can not be compared to an off the cuff remark of "I feel like shooting someone" when they don't even own a gun.

I never said date rape doesnt exist. If that is enough evidence for you, then fine. I know for a fact that many women want the man to persist after one or several no and that it IS part of the flirting.

The difference is the kind of no. It is not something that can be written, but it can be seen and percieved.

Many women say "no" so ey dont "appear to be sluts". Is it reasonable? Of course not, its stupid and part of idiocy of **** shaming culture. But its real, and all of my female friend with whom I talked about this have told me about this in one or several instances.

If they were "convinced" then they werent "sluts" . The problem is when the other physically impedes her from any other action by true force. A gentle and slow caress after a woman laughing and saying "no" while she is giving you a flirtyy look is not date rape, is flirting.

 

[Alceste]

Oh trust me, to me the world would be an extremely awesome and simple place if it was that easy.

In the more sexual relationship I ve have I am continually asked to be e "man" and to not "ask so much" and to simply "take what I want" but the rituals of flirting are weird and hipocritical like most of the popular social rites and interactions (yes, I am very nerdy, thanks for noticing)

About the context, here it is:

http://i.imgur.com/cwSoc.png

I dont think he is talking about legal terms there. He is saying that saying no but acting sexually (acting sexually can be misrepresented to mean mysoginous stupidity or the actual purposeful attempt to seduce the man and flirt so they end up having sex) is a non straightfoward message.

It is easy to give a serious no. Anyone can do it. i know I have done it to sexual advances. I also know if I have used a less clear tone and body language she would have kept at it.

When you are giving a mesage you need to be clear. Saying "no" or flirting can very well just mean "I want you to keep playing"

Mst women I ve asked have said no more than once when they actually just wanted the man to keep trying because they want to feel "wanted" . Its part of the flirting game. You are supposed to know the rules.

I dont even like em. I would love it to be clear and contractual "by that you mean you want me to keep trying? I am just asking once, like which are the specific triggers?" Trust me, most men cant say that and not ruin the mood and most women here feel offended because you are making them feel like "sluts". The woman assumes he is an idiot who doesnt know how to flirt and go find someone else. No, not necessarily a "jerk" or someone that disrespects her, but someone that does read the full message instead of getting confused by the mere wording and playing on technicallities.

If we are going to expect humans to act like robots and follow technical commands on their normal regular life, flirting is the last place where it is reasonable to expect this to happen. It just wont. Sure, some women may think no means no, and sure,y that might be true for themselves but in my experience, most want you to be able to read between the lines.

I know, I read that excerpt. It's here too: Why is Warren Farrell called a rape apologist? : MensRights

I think we're just perceiving it differently.

Look, I'm not saying you shouldn't "keep trying", as in continue to see her, flirt with her, make out with her, whatever, but why not just stop when she says no? Does that sound so complicated? If you stop when she says no and she actually wants to have sex with you, she'll be trained pretty quickly to stop saying no. It just takes a little time, that's all.

Keep in mind I'm not talking about tickle fights here, but open communication between people engaging in a highly sexually charged situation.

 

[DallasApple]

[QUOTEMst women I ve asked have said no more than once when they actually just wanted the man to keep trying because they want to feel "wanted" . Its part of the flirting game. You are supposed to know the rules.][/QUOTE]

Well keep asking.Because "most women I have asked" say no means I don't want to.And after no ,no ,no he "keeps trying" they give in to get him off her back.Its not "flirting" its coersion and harrasment to get sex.

You have met one woman now that is telling you when I say NO that is not an invitation to keep trying because I really want to but I need to be asked 14 times to feel "wanted".

 

[DallasApple]

but why not just stop when she says no? Does that sound so complicated?

Its a mystery.Men are from Mars women are from Venus.

 

[Alceste]

I never said date rape doesnt exist. If that is enough evidence for you, then fine. I know for a fact that many women want the man to persist after one or several no and that it IS part of the flirting.

The difference is the kind of no. It is not something that can be written, but it can be seen and percieved.

Many women say "no" so ey dont "appear to be sluts". Is it reasonable? Of course not, its stupid and part of idiocy of **** shaming culture. But its real, and all of my female friend with whom I talked about this have told me about this in one or several instances.

If they were "convinced" then they werent "sluts" . The problem is when the other physically impedes her from any other action by true force. A gentle and slow caress after a woman laughing and saying "no" while she is giving you a flirtyy look is not date rape, is flirting.

We're not talking about bum pats and tickle fights, we're talking about foreplay and sex.

Why aren't YOU worried that she will be ****-shamed? You know it's likely to happen. OK, you think it's stupid that we live in such a culture, but you also seem to think concern about that is her problem, and that she should get over it and just have the sex. It's your problem too. It's everybody's problem. Not just because it's preventing you from getting a clear yes and more sexy fun times, but also because (I hope) you actually care about the woman in question and don't want her to be hurt by a tarnished reputation in a misogynistic culture.

 

[Me Myself]

[QUOTEMst women I ve asked have said no more than once when they actually just wanted the man to keep trying because they want to feel "wanted" . Its part of the flirting game. You are supposed to know the rules.]

Well keep asking.Because "most women I have asked" say no means I don't want to.And after no ,no ,no he "keeps trying" they give in to get him off her back.Its not "flirting" its coersion and harrasment to get sex.

You have met one woman now that is telling you when I say NO that is not an invitation to keep trying because I really want to but I need to be asked 14 times to feel "wanted".[/QUOTE]

One? No, every woman I have talked to about the subject. Sure, that aint many, but more than three and none has ever said "no always means no" that is just ignorant.

The word "no" in itself doesnt have an exact meaning but one at will vary with the context.

Take notice:

No

No

No:yes:

No :angel2:

No :sorry1:

No :no:

No )(

Believing that the word in itself is the only message is plain ignorance.

 

[DallasApple]

If you stop when she says no and she actually wants to have sex with you, she'll be trained pretty quickly to stop saying no. It just takes a little time, that's all.

TRUE/If she is playing a "game" ? Quickly she will learn to stop playing it.She will start saying YES! But I thought that took all the "excitement" for the guy out of it?

 

[DallasApple]

YES!!! You can help her! If she is "**** shamed" because she REALLY wants sex with you so she hinds behind her mask of "no" ???Don't tolerate it.If you really care about her get her out of the closet.