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The Merits of Oral Tradition

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Modern society tends to portray oral traditions as inherently inferior to written records in pretty much all cases. It's frequently compared to the Telephone Game, since we can never trust that the version we're hearing now is the same as the "original."

In terms of transmitting knowledge about the world, historical events, diplomacy, or other matters of worldly pragmatism, that's pretty much right. Unless we're dealing with one that utilizes strict mnemonic techniques to make sure the original statements are preserved wholly intact orally across centuries(as we see in the Vedas), oral traditions are simply inferior to writing if being close to the "original" is at all important.

However, that doesn't make it inherently a bad thing. In fact, I'd argue that oral traditions are superior in areas where keeping to some nebulous "original" is not important at all, or even not desirable, such as at keeping cultural elements alive and relevant through several generations.

For example, take one of the most common places where oral tradition is still pretty strong today: fairy tales. The European story of the Frog Prince (for those not familiar, the short version is that a frog becomes a prince due to the actions of the princess and they get married) is quite different in its modern American form than it was when the Brothers Grimm collected it. In that version, the princess throws the frog against a wall in disgust, and that's what changes him. In the modern version (no, I'm not talking about Disney's recent adaptation), the princess kisses the frog, and that's what does it.

Now, for those like me who grew up with the American version, what the bloody flip is up with throwing him against a wall?! What's that supposed to mean, or teach kids? (EDIT: The answer to that second question is nothing; these stories weren't "for kids".) I honestly don't know. However, I do know exactly what kissing the frog is supposed to teach: love a person despite their ugly appearance, and they're true beauty will come forth. (But for any kids who might be reading this, kissing frogs is a REALLY bad idea.) That's pretty meaningful in American culture, where we're taught (unsuccessfully, I'll grant) to not judge people by external appearances. Thus, the story, through oral tradition, has relevance and meaning here and now, that it might not otherwise have had had it fully retained its original form; it would have been forgotten by our wider culture, much like about 90% of the other fairy tales the Grimms collected.

What does this have to do with religion? Mine, Heathenry, is not based on any book. Oh, there are historical books that most Heathens are at least aware of, even if they've not read them (the Edda, the Lays, the Sagas, etc.). However, most of our exposure to the older stories comes from people just ... telling them. Either over the internet, or in person. The stories are just told and retold, as they've always been. This is how our new religion came to be half a century ago, it's how our religion is growing now, and it's our religion's only hope for survival in the future.

"In each retelling, these our myths are told. In each retelling, we make new of old."
-Kyle "Oancitizen" Kallgren, speaking of Shakespeare adaptations
 
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Flankerl

Well-Known Member
The Fairy Tales collected by the Brothers Grimm were never intended to teach kids anything. They are just a collection of folk stories and myths.

Its this weird idea that Fairy Tales are something for kids that has to stop.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Modern society tends to portray oral traditions as inherently inferior to written records in pretty much all cases. It's frequently compared to the Telephone Game, since we can never trust that the version we're hearing now is the same as the "original."
And that always struck me as somewhat naive and counter-intuitive, personally.

After all, oral tradition is validated and re-validated at every step of the transmission, and will therefore have at least a fighting chance of being cared and remaining relevant, clear and valid all the way.

Written records, by contrast, have no means of adjusting for language, cultural and technological changes.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
The Fairy Tales collected by the Brothers Grimm were never intended to teach kids anything. They are just a collection of folk stories and myths.

Its this weird idea that Fairy Tales are something for kids that has to stop.

Right. Thanks for bringing that up. Post edited to reflect this.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
However, most of our exposure to the older stories comes from people just ... telling them. Either over the internet, or in person. The stories are just told and retold, as they've always been. This is how our new religion came to be half a century ago, it's how our religion is growing now, and it's our religion's only hope for survival in the future.
"In each retelling, these our myths are told. In each retelling, we make new of old."
-Kyle "Oancitizen" Kallgren, speaking of Shakespeare adaptations

So presumably the detail of stories will change over time? How much attention is given to preserving the moral / message / truth of the story?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
The Fairy Tales collected by the Brothers Grimm were never intended to teach kids anything. They are just a collection of folk stories and myths.

Its this weird idea that Fairy Tales are something for kids that has to stop.
That is a good point. The original Grimms stories were very violent and sexual. The American versions are highly censored and changed. In fact, an English translation of the entire original 1st Edition was only published a couple of years ago. o_O

However, the collection was originally titled Children's and Household Tales, so obviously people back then knew that their kids could handle it. Children in the modern world are very sheltered and coddled from reality. A German peasant kid from centuries ago? Not so much.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
That is a good point. The original Grimms stories were very violent and sexual. The American versions are highly censored and changed. In fact, an English translation of the entire original 1st Edition was only published a couple of years ago. o_O

However, the collection was originally titled Children's and Household Tales, so obviously people back then knew that their kids could handle it. Children in the modern world are very sheltered and coddled from reality. A German peasant kid from centuries ago? Not so much.

The important part is the "Children and Household Tales".
Sure there are stories for children inside. But also Household Tales. There are even anti-Semitic Tales. We read one back in 5th grade at school, good times.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
Eastern Orthodox Christianity has some very interesting mystic theology precisely because oral tradition is not denigrated in favor of reliance on Biblical text. The idea of reifying the text comes from Protestantism.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The Fairy Tales collected by the Brothers Grimm were never intended to teach kids anything. They are just a collection of folk stories and myths.

Its this weird idea that Fairy Tales are something for kids that has to stop.
Light version for kids, dark versions for teens and adults. "0)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Modern society tends to portray oral traditions as inherently inferior to written records in pretty much all cases. It's frequently compared to the Telephone Game, since we can never trust that the version we're hearing now is the same as the "original."

In terms of transmitting knowledge about the world, historical events, diplomacy, or other matters of worldly pragmatism, that's pretty much right. Unless we're dealing with one that utilizes strict mnemonic techniques to make sure the original statements are preserved wholly intact orally across centuries(as we see in the Vedas), oral traditions are simply inferior to writing if being close to the "original" is at all important.

However, that doesn't make it inherently a bad thing. In fact, I'd argue that oral traditions are superior in areas where keeping to some nebulous "original" is not important at all, or even not desirable, such as at keeping cultural elements alive and relevant through several generations.

For example, take one of the most common places where oral tradition is still pretty strong today: fairy tales. The European story of the Frog Prince (for those not familiar, the short version is that a frog becomes a prince due to the actions of the princess and they get married) is quite different in its modern American form than it was when the Brothers Grimm collected it. In that version, the princess throws the frog against a wall in disgust, and that's what changes him. In the modern version (no, I'm not talking about Disney's recent adaptation), the princess kisses the frog, and that's what does it.

Now, for those like me who grew up with the American version, what the bloody flip is up with throwing him against a wall?! What's that supposed to mean, or teach kids? (EDIT: The answer to that second question is nothing; these stories weren't "for kids".) I honestly don't know. However, I do know exactly what kissing the frog is supposed to teach: love a person despite their ugly appearance, and they're true beauty will come forth. (But for any kids who might be reading this, kissing frogs is a REALLY bad idea.) That's pretty meaningful in American culture, where we're taught (unsuccessfully, I'll grant) to not judge people by external appearances. Thus, the story, through oral tradition, has relevance and meaning here and now, that it might not otherwise have had had it fully retained its original form; it would have been forgotten by our wider culture, much like about 90% of the other fairy tales the Grimms collected.

What does this have to do with religion? Mine, Heathenry, is not based on any book. Oh, there are historical books that most Heathens are at least aware of, even if they've not read them (the Edda, the Lays, the Sagas, etc.). However, most of our exposure to the older stories comes from people just ... telling them. Either over the internet, or in person. The stories are just told and retold, as they've always been. This is how our new religion came to be half a century ago, it's how our religion is growing now, and it's our religion's only hope for survival in the future.

"In each retelling, these our myths are told. In each retelling, we make new of old."
-Kyle "Oancitizen" Kallgren, speaking of Shakespeare adaptations
Something else occurs to me: in the days before widespread literacy, written works would have been generally produced and controlled by the establishment, while oral stories could be created and told by anyone.

I'd expect ancient writings to express mainstream views (for their time and culture), while populist or counter-culture views - to the extent that they survive - would be more likely to be represented in oral tradition, or at least in stories that weren't written down until later.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
So presumably the detail of stories will change over time? How much attention is given to preserving the moral / message / truth of the story?

It depends on the degree to which those things are important to the culture that's telling and retelling the story. If they stop being relevant, they can either change, or fade away into obscurity.

This happens organically. Trying to control it is a fool's errand, especially these days.

That is a good point. The original Grimms stories were very violent and sexual. The American versions are highly censored and changed. In fact, an English translation of the entire original 1st Edition was only published a couple of years ago. o_O

Yup, and I picked it up as soon as I could. :D

Though I also have the version that was originally translated into English (which I think is, like, the 7th edition?) and while definitely toned down a bit, it's still pretty darn violent compared to the versions transmitted orally in modern America.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
The Fairy Tales collected by the Brothers Grimm were never intended to teach kids anything. They are just a collection of folk stories and myths.

Its this weird idea that Fairy Tales are something for kids that has to stop.
At one point or another Aesop's Fables and Fairy Tales got conflated.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
It depends on the degree to which those things are important to the culture that's telling and retelling the story. If they stop being relevant, they can either change, or fade away into obscurity.
This happens organically. Trying to control it is a fool's errand, especially these days.

So are there new stories too, perhaps with more contemporary themes?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Many religious traditions, even those with written sacred scriptures, have retained an "oral tradition" that is considered to have equal status to the written one (the Oral Torah in Rabbinic Judaism springs to mind).

As a Catholic, I recognise the efficacy of a "living, breathing" tradition that can "make progress" with time and adapt to the needs of different eras, over a 'dead letter' that brooks no flexibility.

Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman's point regarding the continuum of the 'basic idea' should be borne in mind:

"It was said, then, that a true development retains the essential idea of the subject from which it has proceeded" (241)

With "oral tradition," the 'basic idea' always holds but the understanding develops.

Tradition is organic, it grows from the same and eternal source which is it's seed. If I may quote St.Vincent of Lérins who wrote concerning doctrinal development in the fifth century,: “Therefore, let there be growth and abundant progress in understanding, knowledge, and wisdom, in each and all, in individuals and in the whole Church, at all times and in the progress of ages, but only with the proper limits".


http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm


77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

79 The Father's self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."
...
Growth in understanding the faith

94 Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church:

- "through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts";57 it is in particular "theological research [which] deepens knowledge of revealed truth".58

- "from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which [believers] experience",59 the sacred Scriptures "grow with the one who reads them."60

- "from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth".61

95 "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others
. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls."62​
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
And that always struck me as somewhat naive and counter-intuitive, personally.

After all, oral tradition is validated and re-validated at every step of the transmission, and will therefore have at least a fighting chance of being cared and remaining relevant, clear and valid all the way.
"Mnemonic Devices:
Prodigious energy was expended by ancient Indian culture in ensuring that these texts were transmitted from generation to generation with inordinate fidelity. Towards this end, eight complex forms of recitation or pathas were designed to aid memorization and verification of the sacred Vedas. The texts were subsequently "proof-read" by comparing the different recited versions.

Some of the forms of recitation are —

The jaṭā-pāṭha (literally "mesh recitation") in which every two adjacent words in the text were first recited in their original order, then repeated in the reverse order, and finally repeated again in the original order. The recitation thus proceeded as:
word1word2, word2word1, word1word2; word2word3, word3word2, word2word3; ...

In another form of recitation, dhvaja-pāṭha (literally "flag recitation") a sequence of N words were recited (and memorized) by pairing the first two and last two words and then proceeding as:
word1word2, word(N-1)wordN; word2word3, word(N-3)word(N-2); ...; word(N-1)wordN, word1word2

The most complex form of recitation, ghana-pāṭha (literally "dense recitation"), according to (Filliozat 2004, p. 139), took the form:
word1word2, word2word1, word1word2word3, word3word2word1, word1word2word3; word2word3, word3word2, word2word3word4, word4word3word2, word2word3word4; ...

These extraordinary retention techniques guaranteed the most perfect canon not just in terms of unaltered word order but also in terms of sound. That these methods have been effective, is testified to by the preservation of the most ancient Indian religious text, the RigVeda (ca. 1500 BCE*). Similar methods were used for memorizing mathematical texts, whose transmission remained exclusively oral until the end of the Vedic period (ca. 500 BCE)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_chant#Mnemonic_Devices
* My date is not less than 4,000 BC, perhaps even 6,000 BC.

images
Students learning Vedas.

 
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beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Some portion of the population has, either innately or through practice, very good memory. In a non-literate society that valued maintenance of such skill, there would be methods in place to identify and develop those individuals with the best ability to memorize the sacred stories and other valuable records, and once institutionalized in the society, the method of identifying talented individuals and transmitting the stories would be likely to survive and maintain these stories for long periods of time, especially in a society where hundreds of individuals could be dedicated to such activities and regularly interact with each other to maintain the knowledge base. A society of 100,000 might be able to maintain and bring together several hundred dedicated to the task of this remembering.

In smaller cultures, such as most indigenous tribal societies, it would be much more difficult to create such an institution and maintain it over long periods of time. A society with 1,000 members might only have a few dozen who are truly talented at memory, and likely they could not be fully dedicated to the task. Such societies would be at greater risk for their stories being lost or changed over time.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
I have been reading some book by Erhman about memory and Christianity and he noted that there was a study where anthropologists would go to oral cultures in "modern" times and you could go one year and hear Story A, which was about 1000 lines long, come back the next year to hear Story A, and now it's 500 or 2000 or whatever lines long. They will all say they have preserved the original story despite the obvious fact they didn't. Oral cultures care more about preserving the "gist" or whatever. Changing details, even themes, was not considered bad at all. He also told of studies where a scripted event happened in a class and barely anyone in the class could remember the event accurately even a few weeks later. So much for the infallibility of memory.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
But that's part of my point: changing over time is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, it can actually be a good thing.
Oh, I definitely agree! And as @Kelly of the Phoenix points out, there is pretty good evidence that at least in some traditions there have been considerable changes over fairly short periods of time. I'm all for being adaptable, and any good storyteller knows, you should have long and short versions, as well as variations, to account for differing needs and audiences...

Edit: However, in some traditions, changes and differing versions are viewed as wrong, and so have an emphasis on being accurate and unchanged since the beginning of time, or even before...:p
 
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