The message of Jesus conveyed..

[Ignotus]

If we take away the old testament, heaven, hell, god, last supper, death for sins, golden rule and the beatitudes. What else does those who wrote about Jesus in the bible teach us about Jesus values in the new testament? I was thinking of this today. I have no answer for that myself. If I could get any constructive input on this subject with citation from the new testament that would be wonderful.

Thank You

 

[Pegg]

If we take away the old testament, heaven, hell, god, last supper, death for sins, golden rule and the beatitudes. What else does those who wrote about Jesus in the bible teach us about Jesus values in the new testament? I was thinking of this today. I have no answer for that myself. If I could get any constructive input on this subject with citation from the new testament that would be wonderful.

Thank You

I would say that all of what Jesus was teaching is summed up by the two commandments which he hightlighted at Matthew 22...

Matthew 22:37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

He felt that all of what was written in the OT hinged on love for God and neighbour...and if a person lives by these two laws alone, they will be fulfilling all that God requires of them because love is an 'active' force. It is expressed in action and when a person puts love into action those actions benefit others. Love does not harm any person or any creature, it only does good toward them.

 

[Ignotus]

I would say that all of what Jesus was teaching is summed up by the two commandments which he hightlighted at Matthew 22...

Matthew 22:37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

He felt that all of what was written in the OT hinged on love for God and neighbour...and if a person lives by these two laws alone, they will be fulfilling all that God requires of them because love is an 'active' force. It is expressed in action and when a person puts love into action those actions benefit others. Love does not harm any person or any creature, it only does good toward them.

That would bring is back to God and the Ten Commandments from the Old Testament. Which are core values in subject of what is taught to Christians no doubt. I guess where my mind is at how he lead by example and other lessons through actions conveyed in the new testament only. All those lessons sans anything about god or the other main foundations of Christianity most commonly of worship. Digging in my memory these two come to mind for example. I guess I could look all this up but I would like to hear from the others. Thank you for posting on this.

38 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

—Matthew 5:38–5:42 KJV
​

John 8

New International Version (NIV)

1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.
3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group
4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”
6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”
8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

 

[Shermana]

No OT = No Jesus.

Also, you are bringing up a frequent myth that Jesus "changed" the OT. He didn't. He was changing wrongful interpretations of them and explaining what He was saying was the original meaning of the law to begin with.

The New Testament teaches nothing New


Also, you bring up the Pericope Adulterae in John 7:53-8:11 which is spurious and was a later addition that doesn't exist in any of the earliest known manuscripts. You should see a little asterisk in most translations at 7:53.

and if a person lives by these two laws alone, they will be fulfilling all that God requires of them

This is also a common and totally erroneous interpretation of which Jesus said, which is nothing close to the right context. Otherwise, one can interpret "love of God" and "Love of neighbor" to mean anything they want, picking and choosing as they please. ALL of the commandments are about Love of God and neighbor, that is what he was obviously saying. The word "hangs on" indicates that each of the commandments is somehow based on/about love of God or love of neighbor. Thus those are not just TWO commandments, they are HUNDREDS of them, wrapped up into 2 basic categories. He wasn't saying that if you obey those two that you didn't have to obey the rest by any means. If he did, he'd be a stonable false prophet. You might as well say "All the laws of traffic hang on not hitting anyone else". That doesn't give you permission to run red lights or drive on the left side of the road even if its momentarily safe to do so. (Unless you're in England of course.)

Those who use that blatantly wrong interpretation usually have some funny ways of interpreting (or generally, outright ignoring) what he said in Matthew 5:17-20.

"Anyone who teaches to break the least of the commandments shall be called the least in the Kingdom".

Obviously not too many people are concerned about being called "The least" in the Kingdom.

 

[Ignotus]

Luke 7:36-50

36 When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table.
37 A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume.
38 As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.
39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.”
40 Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.” “Tell me, teacher,” he said.
41 “Two people owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.
42 Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”
43 Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.” “You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.
44 Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
45 You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet.
47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”
48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”


Mathew 17:24-26

24 After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax ?"
25 "Yes, he does," he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes--from their own sons or from others?"
26 "From others," Peter answered. "Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him.
27 "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."

 

[Ignotus]

No OT = No Jesus.

Also, you are bringing up a frequent myth that Jesus "changed" the OT. He didn't. He was changing wrongful interpretations of them and explaining what He was saying was the original meaning of the law to begin with.



Also, you bring up the Pericope Adulterae in John 7:53-8:11 which is spurious and was a later addition that doesn't exist in any of the earliest known manuscripts. You should see a little asterisk in most translations at 7:53.


This is also a common and totally erroneous interpretation of which Jesus said, which is nothing close to the right context. Otherwise, one can interpret "love of God" and "Love of neighbor" to mean anything they want, picking and choosing as they please. ALL of the commandments are about Love of God and neighbor, that is what he was obviously saying. The word "hangs on" indicates that each of the commandments is somehow based on/about love of God or love of neighbor. Thus those are not just TWO commandments, they are HUNDREDS of them, wrapped up into 2 basic categories. He wasn't saying that if you obey those two that you didn't have to obey the rest by any means. If he did, he'd be a stonable false prophet. You might as well say "All the laws of traffic hang on not hitting anyone else". That doesn't give you permission to run red lights or drive on the left side of the road even if its momentarily safe to do so. (Unless you're in England of course.)

Those who use that blatantly wrong interpretation usually have some funny ways of interpreting (or generally, outright ignoring) what he said in Matthew 5:17-20.

"Anyone who teaches to break the least of the commandments shall be called the least in the Kingdom".

Obviously not too many people are concerned about being called "The least" in the Kingdom.

It isn't easy finding things in the new testament in which I have requested. I am not sure if you were referring to me about bringing up Jesus changing the OT? . To clear up to everyone where I am coming from, the passages I posted was to get the ball rolling. This thread wasn't about theories just citations of the new testament within the means I stated. Thanks.

 

[Ignotus]

I noticed on the passages I can think back to sin is mentioned. Aside from the amusing passage about the tax and the suggestion on where to collect.

 

[John Martin]

If we take away the old testament, heaven, hell, god, last supper, death for sins, golden rule and the beatitudes. What else does those who wrote about Jesus in the bible teach us about Jesus values in the new testament? I was thinking of this today. I have no answer for that myself. If I could get any constructive input on this subject with citation from the new testament that would be wonderful.

Thank You

The message of Jesus or the good news of Jesus is very simple and direct:When John was arrested Jesus came into Galilee,preaching the good news from God and saying, the time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand,repent and believe in the good news'.(gospel of Mark). Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.(gospel of Mathew). The central message of Jesus is : the kingdom of God is at hand, repent. The Kingdom of God is at hand: tells us two where God is where we are; who God is who we are. It means God is everywhere. Everyone and everything is in God(panentheism). It also means ultimately we are all one with God. Only God is. We all come from God and return to God as a piece of ice comes from the water and returns to water. The Kingdom of God means to transform our life into life of God and our actions into actions of God and our children into children of God. Jesus said, the works which I do are not my own but the Father who dwells in me does his works`.This is the experience of the kingdom of God.
Repent is to realize, to discover or to become aware of the universal presence of God, to realize our oneness with God, to transform our life into life of God and our actions into actions of God. This is the essential message that Jesus conveyed, rest of his teachings are only a commentary of that.

 

[oldbadger]

If we take away the old testament, heaven, hell, god, last supper, death for sins, golden rule and the beatitudes. What else does those who wrote about Jesus in the bible teach us about Jesus values in the new testament? I was thinking of this today. I have no answer for that myself. If I could get any constructive input on this subject with citation from the new testament that would be wonderful.

Thank You

Hi....!

You have asked for citations, which would take me hours to prepare, so for my citation I just want to name GMark and Matthew. I hope that this is ok.

Here are just some of the additional 'teachings' from GMark:-

The removal of prejudice. The story of the good Samaritan supports this. Some would argue that Jesus was not interested in other people apart from his own, but he just wanted to spread his ideas, healing and teaching at home first.

To manage and find contentment with little, without the need to surround oneself with material possessions. That masses of wealth can bring masses of stress and worry.

To think about what we're doing, and not to slide mindlessly into traditional habits without giving thought to the 'whys' and 'hows'.

Not to criticise other people before we ourselves have sorted out our own sillinesses.

Not to turn a beautiful religion, faith and way of life into a materialistic circus.

To get rid of archaic and non-productive ways, traditions and rules.

A new view on feminism. The start of feminism!

Beware of hypocrisy!

There's nothing wrong in enjoying good food and wine.

True friends come before bad family!

Oh........ that's just off the top of my head, without opening the books. Jesus has a lot to offer anybody who cares to read about him....

 

[Ignotus]

Hi....!

You have asked for citations, which would take me hours to prepare, so for my citation I just want to name GMark and Matthew. I hope that this is ok.

Here are just some of the additional 'teachings' from GMark:-

The removal of prejudice. The story of the good Samaritan supports this. Some would argue that Jesus was not interested in other people apart from his own, but he just wanted to spread his ideas, healing and teaching at home first.

To manage and find contentment with little, without the need to surround oneself with material possessions. That masses of wealth can bring masses of stress and worry.

To think about what we're doing, and not to slide mindlessly into traditional habits without giving thought to the 'whys' and 'hows'.

Not to criticise other people before we ourselves have sorted out our own sillinesses.

Not to turn a beautiful religion, faith and way of life into a materialistic circus.

To get rid of archaic and non-productive ways, traditions and rules.

A new view on feminism. The start of feminism!

Beware of hypocrisy!

There's nothing wrong in enjoying good food and wine.

True friends come before bad family!

Oh........ that's just off the top of my head, without opening the books. Jesus has a lot to offer anybody who cares to read about him....

THANK YOU!!! YES! This is exactly what I mean. I would love to hear more about things like this. GREAT POST!!! :danana: This has made a good morning for me.

 

[Ignotus]

The message of Jesus or the good news of Jesus is very simple and direct:When John was arrested Jesus came into Galilee,preaching the good news from God and saying, the time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand,repent and believe in the good news'.(gospel of Mark). Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.(gospel of Mathew). The central message of Jesus is : the kingdom of God is at hand, repent. The Kingdom of God is at hand: tells us two where God is where we are; who God is who we are. It means God is everywhere. Everyone and everything is in God(panentheism). It also means ultimately we are all one with God. Only God is. We all come from God and return to God as a piece of ice comes from the water and returns to water. The Kingdom of God means to transform our life into life of God and our actions into actions of God and our children into children of God. Jesus said, the works which I do are not my own but the Father who dwells in me does his works`.This is the experience of the kingdom of God.
Repent is to realize, to discover or to become aware of the universal presence of God, to realize our oneness with God, to transform our life into life of God and our actions into actions of God. This is the essential message that Jesus conveyed, rest of his teachings are only a commentary of that.

Sorry, I just don't see it like you do. Regardless of your beliefs I feel the "commentary" is just as important separately as what you hold up in most high regards. Regardless if it connects to a core teaching somewhere else. Thank you for sharing though.

 

[oldbadger]

THANK YOU!!! YES! This is exactly what I mean. I would love to hear more about things like this. GREAT POST!!! :danana: This has made a good morning for me.

Thankyou for your kind post and message.

Jesus's life does interest me more than the evangelical tradition that emerged after his death. I left big 'C' Christianity a long time ago, but having been introduced to 'historic Jesus' by an RF member's posts, I like him more than ever before.

I don't see 'forgiveness of sins' like Christians tend to. Galilean Jews were very superstitious and believed that illness was caused by sin, so when Jesus healed a person he often said words to the effect of,'Your sins are removed', and would often suggest, 'Sin no more', which was a way of saying 'Stay well!'.

Imo this became the 'forgiveness of sins' belief in the Christian faith.

Jesus, standing alone as a Jewish healer, teacher and social guide must be one of the most beautiful people who ever lived. This is the Jesus that you could talk to agnostics or atheists about. Some Christians listen as well, of course, but some feel that this viewpoint is not good.

I'm not supposed to name other members, but look for posts by outhouse if you want to learn more.

 

[BSM1]

I feel that the hidden teaching of Yeshua is that this life is not that important. This, in my belief, is why He never tried to metaphysically heal or feed everyone in the world when obviously He could. Jesus talked extensively of another plane of existence-the "kingdom of Heaven". The undercurrent of all his teachings is that we should "prepare" for this kingdom and not be concerned about our fate here on earth. Also, IMO, I think Yeshua was showing man how illusional life is by causally breaking the irrefutable laws of physics that we must obey. Walking across water, changing and creating food and drink at will, raising the dead-- these are just a few examples that shake our reality. The existence of a Jesus also provided a bridge between the physical world which we can touch and the spiritual world which we can only imagine. This is what I think Jesus meant when he said "I am the Way, the Truth....etc. To me I see Yeshua as a promise that there is a spiritual realm that we can aspire to even though we can't prove it exists. Now I know my ideas, like everyone else's take on the subject, is truly speculation. But I have come to believe that everyone has to find their own truth and this is a large chunk of mine.

 

[oldbadger]

I feel that the hidden teaching of Yeshua is that this life is not that important. This, in my belief, is why He never tried to metaphysically heal or feed everyone in the world when obviously He could. Jesus talked extensively of another plane of existence-the "kingdom of Heaven". The undercurrent of all his teachings is that we should "prepare" for this kingdom and not be concerned about our fate here on earth. Also, IMO, I think Yeshua was showing man how illusional life is by causally breaking the irrefutable laws of physics that we must obey. Walking across water, changing and creating food and drink at will, raising the dead-- these are just a few examples that shake our reality. The existence of a Jesus also provided a bridge between the physical world which we can touch and the spiritual world which we can only imagine. This is what I think Jesus meant when he said "I am the Way, the Truth....etc. To me I see Yeshua as a promise that there is a spiritual realm that we can aspire to even though we can't prove it exists. Now I know my ideas, like everyone else's take on the subject, is truly speculation. But I have come to believe that everyone has to find their own truth and this is a large chunk of mine.

A good post imo. Thankyou for explaining your faith. It just shows that both Christians and others (like me!) can find massive interest in Jesus, even if we focus upon him and his life differently.

I usually post within historic Jesus threads, but the OP wanted 'other views' outside of Christianity, so I posted. By the way, I believe that Jesus did go out to the ship during the storm, in fact, I believe in most of the reports in GMark, but in a different way to most Christians. GJohn, which you quoted from, seems more spiritual and heavenly by comparison with Matthew and Mark.

 

[Ignotus]

Thank you for your posts oldbadger and BSM1.

OLDBADGER
I see it very much like yourself oldbadger. I appreciate you coming back for some more input. I will look up Outhouse per your suggestion. How long have you had this view?

BSM1
I never heard of that view on this subject, is there a place I can read more on this?


* Thank you both for keeping an open mind and not correcting or condemning another way to Jesus.

 

[Pastek]

If we take away the old testament, heaven, hell, god, last supper, death for sins, golden rule and the beatitudes. What else does those who wrote about Jesus in the bible teach us about Jesus values in the new testament? I was thinking of this today. I have no answer for that myself. If I could get any constructive input on this subject with citation from the new testament that would be wonderful.

Thank You

All the things he taught about was to make people closer to God : "if you help/love this person, it was for me that you did it".
Or "i will prepare a place for you" if you believe/do this and that.

Everything is connected to God.

 

[BSM1]

A good post imo. Thankyou for explaining your faith. It just shows that both Christians and others (like me!) can find massive interest in Jesus, even if we focus upon him and his life differently.

I usually post within historic Jesus threads, but the OP wanted 'other views' outside of Christianity, so I posted. By the way, I believe that Jesus did go out to the ship during the storm, in fact, I believe in most of the reports in GMark, but in a different way to most Christians. GJohn, which you quoted from, seems more spiritual and heavenly by comparison with Matthew and Mark.

Thank you. Just as a clarification I only list myself as christian because I adhere to and follow the teachings of Yeshua. I would never be affiliated with any denomination; nor after I stared asking some rather pointed questions concerning their faith, would any allow me to be so.

 

[oldbadger]

Thank you. Just as a clarification I only list myself as christian because I adhere to and follow the teachings of Yeshua. I would never be affiliated with any denomination; nor after I stared asking some rather pointed questions concerning their faith, would any allow me to be so.

That's fine. I used to travel a lot with my work, and have nights away. To spend an evening in a strange town or city I would often walk the streets and see if any churches were open. I would sit in on all kinds of services. I preferred being free of any particular name, because it did give me freedom. To embrace a 'name' meant a kind of imprisonment.

Churches react so differently to each other. Many years ago a Pastor greeted me as I left a local service. He wanted to come to my home. I invited him in. I asked him a question about Jesus and he was so upset that he ran out of my home's side door, and, turning the wrong way, he fled deep into my back garden. I had to find him in the darkness and lead him back to the street..... to the light!

 

[BSM1]

That's fine. I used to travel a lot with my work, and have nights away. To spend an evening in a strange town or city I would often walk the streets and see if any churches were open. I would sit in on all kinds of services. I preferred being free of any particular name, because it did give me freedom. To embrace a 'name' meant a kind of imprisonment.

Churches react so differently to each other. Many years ago a Pastor greeted me as I left a local service. He wanted to come to my home. I invited him in. I asked him a question about Jesus and he was so upset that he ran out of my home's side door, and, turning the wrong way, he fled deep into my back garden. I had to find him in the darkness and lead him back to the street..... to the light!

LOL. I use to love for the Jehovah Witness people to show up at my door. A few have left sputtering. But they haven't come around for a couple of years. They must have marked my house.

But I agree with your "imprisonment" assessment. Also denominations are getting (IMO) more competitive in their religious stances. I watch these electronic marques that becoming so prominent in front of churches nowadays. I'm expecting one to say "My Jesus can kick your Jesus' ***".

 

[oldbadger]

LOL. I use to love for the Jehovah Witness people to show up at my door. A few have left sputtering. But they haven't come around for a couple of years. They must have marked my house.

We have been receiving a Jehovah Witness couple to our home for nearly twenty years. Street parking is not possible here, and one day I told them that they could always park on our driveway anytime they wanted. They have become friends, and, not ever wanting to lose their visits, I never push anything too hard. They've taught me a lot, really..... in fact, before I came to RF and discovered the Jesus historians, they were the best reference I had. I could not ever be a JW, because if the world had a majority of JWs, then I think that it would be a theocracy, and biblical law might be enforced. !! Imagine what could happen to a prostitute or adulterer.

But I agree with your "imprisonment" assessment. Also denominations are getting (IMO) more competitive in their religious stances. I watch these electronic marques that becoming so prominent in front of churches nowadays. I'm expecting one to say "My Jesus can kick your Jesus' ***".

Yes....... Electronic Margues? I've never seen one! I have heard one Christian exclaim about another denomination 'They haven't got anything on us!' What Jesus would say about the many 'denomination wars' over the centuries...... well.

So.... yes..... keeping your spiritual freedom is best, I think; I have read several christians on RF who have been so upset within various groups. I'm trying to compile as many historical possibilities, probabilities and certainties about Jesus as I can. I want to write an article introducing Jesus to Agnostics and Atheists, possibly for a magazine or something like that. That's my goal. Something like, 'Meet the Jesus that everybody can believe in'. That's going to take me some considerable time, because the info just keeps jumping off the pages at me.