The Messiah. Has he come? When will he come? Was it Jesus?

[truthofscripture]

In the Hebrew it means "one who has been anointed" and in reference to a king or priest (the Messiah will be a human king) it means anointed by by a particular oil (shemen hamishchah).

MESSIAH
From the Hebrew root verb ma·shachʹ, meaning “smear,” and so “anoint.” (Ex 29:2, 7) Messiah (ma·shiʹach) means “anointed” or “anointed one.” The Greek equivalent is Khri·stosʹ, or Christ.—Mt 2:4
In the Hebrew Scriptures the verbal adjective form ma·shiʹach is applied to many men. David was officially appointed to be king by being anointed with oil and so is spoken of as “anointed one” or, literally, “messiah.” (2Sa 19:21; 22:51; 23:1; Ps 18:50) Other kings, including Saul and Solomon, are termed “anointed one” or “the anointed of Jehovah.” (1Sa 2:10, 35; 12:3, 5; 24:6, 10; 2Sa 1:14, 16; 2Ch 6:42; La 4:20) The term is also applied to the high priest. (Le 4:3, 5, 16; 6:22) The patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are called Jehovah’s “anointed ones.” (1Ch 16:16, 22, ftn) Persian King Cyrus is termed “anointed one,” in that he was appointed by God for a certain assignment.—Isa 45:1;

 

[Kolibri]

Except that the scripture you are mentioning is speaking about the Father and not Jesus. The King of king and the Lord of lords, speaking about Jesus is found in Rev 19:16

This passage very well could be Jesus himself. Note, please, how all the descriptions fit.

"Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen." 1 Timothy 6:13-16

• First you noted Re 19:16, and you could add Re 17:14 to Jesus being "the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those that rule as lords"

• Hebrews 7:15,16 describes the resurrected Jesus Christ as having an "indestructible life". As none of his brothers would receive their heavenly reward till Christ presence and would not begin ruling as kings anyways till after the marriage of the Lamb, Jesus is currently the only king "having immortality."

• Re 1:16 describes Jesus as now having "his countenance...like the sun when it shines at its brightest", so "unapproachable light" does fit.

• No man has seen Jesus as king, before he became king the first part Jesus' words at John 14:19 came true. "In a little while the world will see me no more, but you will see me, because I live and you will live." When his disciples would see him again, they would no longer be humans but have spirit bodies. Thus a king "whom no man has seen or can see" also fits.

 

[roger1440]

Not all of us Jews are on the same page when it comes to the issue of the Messiah. I for one really don't much have an opinion one way or the other. If there is to be a Messiah, it should be obvious after a while whom that is, but until then...

If Paul knew anything about the historical Jesus, he never mentions it. You would think it would be important.

Yeah, there isn’t an agreement among the Jews who or what the Messiah is. Some believe he will be some sort of super-duper Jew coming out of the clouds with some Challah under his arm with hit songs of Fiddler on the Roof being played in the background who will save the world. Others believe the Messiah will be the Jews collectively. I think the latter is the message of the Gospels. But what do I know, I ain’t Jewish.

 

[metis]

Yeah, there isn’t an agreement among the Jews who or what the Messiah is. Some believe he will be some sort of super-duper Jew coming out of the clouds with some Challah under his arm with hit songs of Fiddler on the Roof being played in the background who will save the world. Others believe the Messiah will be the Jews collectively. I think the latter is the message of the Gospels. But what do I know, I ain’t Jewish.

And some of us really don't get much into this, and for different reasons. My feeling is that if there's going one, we'll know about it when it happens, and then our questions will be answered-- which will only lead to new questions. Which other people answer questions with more questions? Seems to be some sort of genetic defect.

 

[roger1440]

And some of us really don't get much into this, and for different reasons. My feeling is that if there's going one, we'll know about it when it happens, and then our questions will be answered-- which will only lead to new questions. Which other people answer questions with more questions? Seems to be some sort of genetic defect.

Sometimes what we look for is much closer then we think. One time I couldn't find my hat, turned out I was wearing it at the time.

 

[Kenny]

This passage very well could be Jesus himself. Note, please, how all the descriptions fit.

"Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen." 1 Timothy 6:13-16

• First you noted Re 19:16, and you could add Re 17:14 to Jesus being "the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those that rule as lords"

• Hebrews 7:15,16 describes the resurrected Jesus Christ as having an "indestructible life". As none of his brothers would receive their heavenly reward till Christ presence and would not begin ruling as kings anyways till after the marriage of the Lamb, Jesus is currently the only king "having immortality."

• Re 1:16 describes Jesus as now having "his countenance...like the sun when it shines at its brightest", so "unapproachable light" does fit.

• No man has seen Jesus as king, before he became king the first part Jesus' words at John 14:19 came true. "In a little while the world will see me no more, but you will see me, because I live and you will live." When his disciples would see him again, they would no longer be humans but have spirit bodies. Thus a king "whom no man has seen or can see" also fits.

Certainly Rev 17:14, Hebrews, Rev 1 is correct.

The context is "when every eye will see"--which is later.

Going back to Timothy:

16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. NAS (

Speaks of Jesus "who dwell in unapproachable light" - not that he is the unapproachable light but that he dwell in it (The Father)

IMV, when he resurrected and the disciples saw him, he has already received the position of King and the time will come when all will confess him as Lord.

 

[metis]

Sometimes what we look for is much closer then we think. One time I couldn't find my hat, turned out I was wearing it at the time.

Sorta like maybe we're all messiahs?

 

[roger1440]

Sorta like maybe we're all messiahs?

Exactly. I think that is the message of the canonical Gospels. The Jews as a whole is the Messiah. What they seek they always had. They just have to find it in there own scripture. Long story short, once the Jews get there act together, the rest just falls into place. As I said in previous, the virgin birth of Jesus is the union between God and Israel. It was never about some magical dead Jew.

 

[Domenic]

Kolibri,

Do the JW’s still follow man made rules? One is: “Only the 144,000 can partake.” Jesus said, “Do this in remembrance of me.” He was not pointing to just one class of people…it has to be assumed he was talking to all who followed him. I have done much research, and have gone to Jehovah to guide me. I’m never sure if my reasoning is in line with his, or if my understanding of scripture is correct…I do the best I can. It seems to me the JW’s are under many man made rules as the Jews were in Jesus day…I guess it’s just a human thing to do. Dress code, hair code, smoking, etc. I recall they were kicking people out for smoking. Telling people they were not of the 144,000, or even baptized unless a group of men approved it. These, and many other man made rules had to be followed, or their members were told to leave.

I once asked: “You can’t take blood in any form, but you drink tap water that has blood in it?” Mortuaries empty the blood of dead people into the drain, which goes to a water treatment plant, and back into your tap. All they do at the water treatment plant is remove hard stuff, add more water, and some chemicals…they can’t take the blood out. See where I’m going here? You can rule yourself with manmade rules out of even waking up in the morning. God gives man 1,000 years to be perfect…without Satan there, and Jesus helping. You can’t tell people they have to be like this, or that, and if they don’t to take a hike.
This 144,000 thing. I believe only Jesus can say who he want to be a part of that, not a body of men, or any single man making himself one because he feels he is.
I would like to hear your views using scripture on these things...please.

 

[Scott C.]

Yes, there would be some similarities. But the Christian idea has developed into something that is far different than the Jewish one. (And, just for the record, the "Old Testament" is a Christian book, translated by Christians, with Christian ideas. Our canon is the Tanakh, and is neither "old" nor replaceable.)

And then there's the problem is with the idea that fulfilling only some of the requirements means anything.
There have been many people, both before and after Jesus, who have fulfilled some of the requirements. The messiah will must fulfill all of the requirements in his lifetime, if he fails to do so he is a false messiah. It's all or nothing when it comes to the messianic prophecies.

Thanks for the response. I'm not sure if this is the place to ask for an education in Judaism, as I could study it elsewhere. I'm aware that you don't use the "OT" nor do you call it that. It's not clear to me however, on which books are shared by the OT and the Tanakh, and how they differ in translation.

Another question, can you describe briefly how you view the coming of the Messiah? Will it be dramatic, a world event that all know at once? What will be his mission? How will the world be impacted? How will Jews, Christians, and others be impacted?

Regards

 

[Tarheeler]

Another question, can you describe briefly how you view the coming of the Messiah? Will it be dramatic, a world event that all know at once? What will be his mission? How will the world be impacted? How will Jews, Christians, and others be impacted?

Regards

I can't describe it, because I really don't know. As others have mentioned, there are a lot of differing ideas in Judaism about the messiah and the messianic age.

About all I can tell you is that I do believe in both in it, and I believe that humanity has a direct role in making it happen.

 

[Kolibri]

Speaks of Jesus "who dwell in unapproachable light" - not that he is the unapproachable light but that he dwell in it (The Father)

IMV, when he resurrected and the disciples saw him, he has already received the position of King and the time will come when all will confess him as Lord.

Yes, his close proximity to his Father has much to do with it. Before Jesus was enthroned as King of God's Kingdom, Paul was forcefully converted by a visitation by Jesus. The experience blinded him, but that could have been simply because Jesus was still radiating from having had been so close to his Father prior to this - much as Moses' face radiated, only much more so.

Jehovah's Witnesses recognize that the resurrected Jesus was always Lord and King over the congregation. (Col 1:13,18 - "kingdom of his beloved Son") But he was not crowned as King of the Kingdom of God until end of the "Gentile times" - and that wasn't until 1914. (Mt 6:9; Lu 21:24)

 

[Kenny]

Yes, his close proximity to his Father has much to do with it. Before Jesus was enthroned as King of God's Kingdom, Paul was forcefully converted by a visitation by Jesus. The experience blinded him, but that could have been simply because Jesus was still radiating from having had been so close to his Father prior to this - much as Moses' face radiated, only much more so.

OK. LOL... I wouldn't say "forcefully" converted but rather spectacularly confronted.

Jehovah's Witnesses recognize that the resurrected Jesus was always Lord and King over the congregation. (Col 1:13,18 - "kingdom of his beloved Son") But he was not crowned as King of the Kingdom of God until end of the "Gentile times" - and that wasn't until 1914. (Mt 6:9; Lu 21:24)

Just remembering that differences in certain doctrine is not faith issue but rather an interpretation issue but I wouldn't support your 1914 statement since there is nothing to support it.

Stephen clearly said that Jesus was seated at the right hand of the Father... in a position of Kingship and Lordship. I would hold to the position that Stephen had it right as well as others.

 

[Godobeyer]

Okay I understand this, what then is or was the purpose of the Messiah according to Islam in your view?

the purpose of God show us that He could created without male , as He created Adam without male and female , and created Eve without female .

Messiah (pbuh) was the last messanger of God to Jews ,God sent many Prophets before him ,so there was many updates, because God message edited by humans (corrupted) .

 

[Kolibri]

Kolibri,

Do the JW’s still follow man made rules? One is: “Only the 144,000 can partake.” Jesus said, “Do this in remembrance of me.” He was not pointing to just one class of people…it has to be assumed he was talking to all who followed him. I have done much research, and have gone to Jehovah to guide me. I’m never sure if my reasoning is in line with his, or if my understanding of scripture is correct…I do the best I can. It seems to me the JW’s are under many man made rules as the Jews were in Jesus day…I guess it’s just a human thing to do. Dress code, hair code, smoking, etc. I recall they were kicking people out for smoking. Telling people they were not of the 144,000, or even baptized unless a group of men approved it. These, and many other man made rules had to be followed, or their members were told to leave.

I once asked: “You can’t take blood in any form, but you drink tap water that has blood in it?” Mortuaries empty the blood of dead people into the drain, which goes to a water treatment plant, and back into your tap. All they do at the water treatment plant is remove hard stuff, add more water, and some chemicals…they can’t take the blood out. See where I’m going here? You can rule yourself with manmade rules out of even waking up in the morning. God gives man 1,000 years to be perfect…without Satan there, and Jesus helping. You can’t tell people they have to be like this, or that, and if they don’t to take a hike.
This 144,000 thing. I believe only Jesus can say who he want to be a part of that, not a body of men, or any single man making himself one because he feels he is.
I would like to hear your views using scripture on these things...please.

What you see as traditions of men that are given the weight of doctrine, we do not. Even our organizational procedures change as we notice a variation between how the Christian congregation was organized in the 1st Century and now.

Regarding these specific topics you brought up in brief:

• Only Jesus' "little flock" partake of the emblems still. The "other sheep" observe but do not partake because they are not parties of the "new covenant" between God and these "sons", nor the "kingdom covenant" between Jesus and his "brothers". (Lu 22:20,29) Strictly speaking the emblems are not associated with membership of the "kingdom covenant" but only the "new covenant". As these are the ones that get "born again" with a heavenly hope, they rightly partake. However, no one tells us what hope we have, 'cept God himself. No man has that authority, not even ourselves. But to those that this "new birth" happens to, it doesn't take very long before they stop feeling like they've gone crazy and settle into their new reality. Typically others that have already gone through this recognize when it is happening to someone else before that person realizes it themselves. The vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses do not partake because we still long for the earthly reward, indicating that God has not operated on our hearts to shift the hope to a heavenly one.
  
• Dress code, hair code. Any code regarding this is based off of 1 Timothy 2:9. "Modesty and soundness of mind." That is a pretty broad boundary. In the interest of not giving "any cause for stumbling", (2 Cor 6:3) it is understandable if we might receive counsel from time to time to nudge a little farther away from something that reflects "the spirit of this world" (1 Cor 2:12). Caution has to be made not to provide counsel based on personal preference.
  
• Smoking - still based off of 2 Cor 7:1; "cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." It is a little hard to smoke and not defile your own health or the health of those around you. It is rather hard to rationalize that smoking is a clean habit, no? If one wants to become or remain known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, this habit needs to be kicked to the curb. We tightened up on this in the 1970's and it has not budged since.
• Blood. Noah was told after the Deluge that he could now eat meat but not the blood, or life that was in the meat. (Ge 9:3,4) The Law Covenant clarified how that could be followed by stipulating that the blood need merely be 'poured out'.(Le 17:13) The Israelites were not expected to hard press the meat or soak out every last drop, but to simply show respect for God's view of equating blood with life by 'pouring it out.' Act 15:28-29 shows that the directive given to Noah was is still binding. When it comes to blood, we see no difference between consuming it via the mouth and consuming it by injection. However, once it breaks down beyond the 4 major components, it becomes a conscience matter and no Christian can judge another over his personal decision in that matter. Same goes for medical instruments that cleanse the blood as long as they are not primed with blood. Some Christians will reason that the machine is an extension of their own circulatory system and others will not. This is a personal matter between them, their conscience, and Jehovah.

 

[metis]

Exactly. I think that is the message of the canonical Gospels. The Jews as a whole is the Messiah. What they seek they always had. They just have to find it in there own scripture. Long story short, once the Jews get there act together, the rest just falls into place. As I said in previous, the virgin birth of Jesus is the union between God and Israel. It was never about some magical dead Jew.

Who says we don't have our act together? After all, look at all of us in Hollywood.

 

[metis]

This 144,000 thing. I believe only Jesus can say who he want to be a part of that, not a body of men, or any single man making himself one because he feels he is.

Let me just comment on the "144,000" thing.

The Hebrew numerical system at that time only went to 1000, so in order to go beyond that one would have to write it differently, such as twelve twelves times a thousand time over, or to put it in numbers, 12 X 12 X 1000. These numbers were symbolic whereas 12 was one of the numbers representing completion (others were 3, 7, and 40), and 1000 stood for numbers too many to count.

So, 144,000 can be read symbolically as "completion upon completion in numbers too great to count". I would suggest that this may be more logical than viewing 144,000 as being literal.[/QUOTE]

 

[Kolibri]

Just remembering that differences in certain doctrine is not faith issue but rather an interpretation issue but I wouldn't support your 1914 statement since there is nothing to support it.

Stephen clearly said that Jesus was seated at the right hand of the Father... in a position of Kingship and Lordship. I would hold to the position that Stephen had it right as well as others.

Stephen saw Psalm 110:1. Verse 2 and Psalm 2:8 did not happen till 1914. We are still awaiting Psalm 2:9.

As far as support for 1914 goes, the ground work has been laid in this thread by the linking of the banded tree dream of Daniel 4 to the Davidic Kingdom. In King Nebuchadnezzar's case, it seems his "seven times" were likely 7 literal years. But not so for the Davidic kingship. I do not know what the Jews might use to calculate the 7 times, if they attempt to at all, but Revelation does give Christians a formula when it equates 3 1/2 times to 1,260 days. (Re 12:6,14). Seven times thus would be 2520 days. Using the Bible rule "a day for a year" (Nu 14:34, Eze 4:6), that becomes 2520 years. 2520 years after the banding of God's Kingdom about Oct 1, 607 B.C.E brings us to about Oct, 1914 C.E.

(Edit: I was thinking of another thread: How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah? | Page 33 | ReligiousForums.com)

 

[Domenic]

What you see as traditions of men that are given the weight of doctrine, we do not. However, even our organizational procedures change as we notice a variation between how the Christian congregation was organized in the 1st Century and now.

Regarding these specific topics you brought up in brief:

• Only Jesus' "little flock" partake of the emblems still. The "other sheep" observe but do not partake because they are not parties of the "new covenant" between God and these "sons", nor the "kingdom covenant" between Jesus and his "brothers". (Lu 22:20,29) Strictly speaking the emblems are not associated with membership of the "kingdom covenant" but only the "new covenant". As these are the ones that get "born again" with a heavenly hope, they rightly partake. However, no one tells us what hope we have, 'cept God himself. No man has that authority, not even ourselves. But to those that this "new birth" happens to, it don't take very long before they stop feeling like they've gone crazy and settle into their new reality. Typically others that have already gone through this recognize when it is happening to someone else before that person realizes it themselves. The vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses do not partake because we still long for the earthly reward, indicating that God has not operated on our hearts to shift the hope to a heavenly one.
  
• Dress code, hair code. Any code regarding this is based off of 1 Timothy 2:9. "Modesty and soundness of mind." That is a pretty broad boundary. In the interest of not giving "any cause for stumbling", (2 Cor 6:3) it is understandable if we might receive counsel from time to time to nudge a little farther away from something that reflects "the spirit of this world" (1 Cor 2:12). Caution has to be made not to counsel based on personal preference.
  
• Smoking - still based off of 2 Cor 7:1; "cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." It is a little hard to smoke and not defile your own health or the health of those around you. It is rather hard to rationalize that smoking is a clean habit, no? If one wants to become or remain known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, this habit needs to be kicked to the curb. We tightened up on this in the 1970's and it has not budged since.
• Blood. Noah was told after the Deluge that he could now eat meat but not the blood, or life that was in the meat. (Ge 9:3,4) The Law Covenant clarified how that could be followed by stipulating that the blood need merely be 'poured out'.(Le 17:13) The Israelites were not expected to hard press the meat or soak out every last drop, but to simply show respect for God's view of equating blood with life by 'pouring it out.' Act 15:28-29 shows that the directive given to Noah was is still binding. When it comes to blood, we see no difference between consuming it via the mouth and consuming it by injection. However, once it breaks down beyond the 4 major components, it becomes a conscience matter and no Christian can judge another over his personal decision in that matter. Same goes for medical instruments that clean the blood as long as they are not primed with blood. Some Christians will reason that the machine is an extension of their own circulatory system and others will not. This is a personal matter between them, their conscience, and Jehovah.

I went to Jehovah on what you posted #95. He knows I'm not smart enough to figure out which way to turn. He has given me an answer in you post #95.
I have stood for Jehovah all my life, and will always do so. I will not follow men if I do not agree with how they understand the scriptures. One thing I did learn from JW's..".How to identify a false religion." I was baptized as a JW in 1968. Most of my family, and congregation had been JW’s for 60+ years. The stories go way back. I have read printed material of the WT dating back to their start. Their history is not what they say it is. They claim they started as Bible Students…not true. They broke off from them. The Bible Students are still around, and as crazy as ever.
I left the WT 19 years ago. I was told about the changes they made because what they were doing was not in line with what the scriptures said. And yes, they always have a scape goat on the top who is removed…with bonus, and retirement money. It’s the same old story again.
They don’t have the right to make someone pass 60 questions before being baptized, nor do they have the right to tell anyone they are no longer a servant of Jehovah. I will never follow men. There is only one between humans and God, his name is Jesus. The WT has put men between man, and Jesus.
The big hook of the WT is they tell 99% truth. I still stand that all religions are false…I wish it was not so. Being alone serving God is not easy.
When I was a JW, I would have wrote what you wrote in post #95. I have learned more in the past 19 years than I did in the first 30. Ask yourself this question: "All the trees in the Bible are symbolic. Why is the tree in the Garden treated as a real tree?"

 

[Domenic]

Let me just comment on the "144,000" thing.

The Hebrew numerical system at that time only went to 1000, so in order to go beyond that one would have to write it differently, such as twelve twelves times a thousand time over, or to put it in numbers, 12 X 12 X 1000. These numbers were symbolic whereas 12 was one of the numbers representing completion (others were 3, 7, and 40), and 1000 stood for numbers too many to count.

So, 144,000 can be read symbolically as "completion upon completion in numbers too great to count". I would suggest that this may be more logical than viewing 144,000 as being literal.

[/QUOTE]

Thank you for posting that...it is a veyr good point. It would have to be figured as the Hebrews did to get a clear understanding.