The Messiah. Has he come? When will he come? Was it Jesus?

[roger1440]

The relevancy of that is zero my friend. The words at 2 Timothy is STILL inspired by God, the same one who inspired the Hebrew scriptures. I don't recall anywhere in the scriptures that God instructed one set of people to regard one part of His inspired word, and another set of people to regard another part. In thinking that is so is not very rational, and places little confidence in our Creator and Sovereign. Where would that thinking put us? According to God, not in a very good position.

The way you write, you go into many directions at once. In doing so you end up nowhere. Please stay focused.

 

[truthofscripture]

The way you write, you go into many directions at once. In doing so you end up nowhere. Please stay focused.

Many directions at once? Please explain.

 

[truthofscripture]

Yes, but I'm kinda busy now and don't really want to look it up. It's there in the Christian Greek scriptures. The covenant ended and Jesus, the night before he died, instituted the New Covenant, and created the Christian Congregation. Spiritual Israel. That congregation continues to this day.

Roger;
You asked for a quote from "Jewish" scripture. Since ALL scripture is inspired of God, and NOT JUST THE HEBREW SCRIPTURE, then I will give you this to ponder:
(Heb 7:11-14; 8:6, 7, 13)

 

[metis]

I noticed that it also has very specific tribes. Do you think that it would translate into that there would be an innumerable for each tribe? Or how you saw what the tribes meant if other than Jewish people?

Well, the irony is that by the the of Jesus, the individual tribes became mostly indistinguishable because they began to intermarry and blend, especially after the Babylonian exile several hundred years earlier. It's probably the reason why you really don't see specific references to them individually in the "N.T." with the exception of the priestly class that ran the Temple.

 

[metis]

I’ll rephrase it. When the Jews collectively are holy as God is holy then they will be a light unto the world and the rest just falls into place. That’s pretty much the Gospels in a nut shell. The rest is just commentary.

Please remember that the word "holy" actually means being special, not necessarily being without sin.

According to the Tanakh, sin can be forgiven in different ways, with Temple sacrifices actually only being for sins we're not aware of that we have committed and also for the communal sins of our people. Personal sins can only forgiven if we try to amend the damage we may have done, and then to ask God for forgiveness. If you have a concordance, you can rather easily check that out by looking up "forgive" and it's variations.

 

[truthofscripture]

Well, the irony is that by the the of Jesus, the individual tribes became mostly indistinguishable because they began to intermarry and blend, especially after the Babylonian exile several hundred years earlier. It's probably the reason why you really don't see specific references to them individually in the "N.T." with the exception of the priestly class that ran the Temple.

The reason you don't see Jews specifically mentioned in the Christian Greek scriptures, is because "Israel's house has been abandoned", and was replaced by "spiritual Israel" which includes ALL nations, tongues, and peoples. The Law Covenant WAS TERMINATED and replaced by the "new Covenant" with the formation of the Christian Congregation by Jesus who WAS the messiah, even though Jews throughout the world choose to disbelieve God and to reject over half of His inspired word, much to their destruction.

 

[metis]

The reason you don't see Jews specifically mentioned in the Christian Greek scriptures, is because "Israel's house has been abandoned", and was replaced by "spiritual Israel" which includes ALL nations, tongues, and peoples. The Law Covenant WAS TERMINATED and replaced by the "new Covenant" with the formation of the Christian Congregation by Jesus who WAS the messiah, even though Jews throughout the world choose to disbelieve God and to reject over half of His inspired word, much to their destruction.

Except both the Torah and Tanakh state that the Covenant and the Law are "forever" and "perpetual". To believe that both are terminated makes God into a liar.

 

[DawudTalut]

The Christians believe Jesus was the messiah, The Jews do not. Has the Messiah already come, or yet to come?

Peace be on you.
1=
According to Ahmadiyya-Muslims, the first Messiah came 1400 years after Moses, preached, put to cross, survived, migrated to Kashmir , through Iran, Afghanistan, Punjab where he met tribes, died at age 120 with success in conveying message of One God, tomb is at Srinagar. [Jesus in India @ alislamDOTorg]

2=
Then a devotee of Islam has been sent with title Jesus Messiah Mahdi, within Islam in 1889 in India, the movement has fifth Khilafat now with no political aims, and taking the message of true Islam worldwide, they are present in all worlds. [wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/topics/messiah/index.php]

 

[truthofscripture]

Except both the Torah and Tanakh state that the Covenant and the Law are "forever" and "perpetual". To believe that both are terminated makes God into a liar.

No it does not. It makes you someone who needs to study the scriptures a whole lot more intensely than you have, so that you might better understand them. God does not, and can not lie, ever. If you read a scripture that seems contradictory, then you have not gotten the correct sense of it. All scriptures must harmonize with all other scriptures, else we haven't gotten the true meaning of it.

 

[truthofscripture]

Except both the Torah and Tanakh state that the Covenant and the Law are "forever" and "perpetual". To believe that both are terminated makes God into a liar.

So tell me, why are animals not sacrificed today? Why aren't people stoned for violating the Mosaic Law today? Why are only some parts of the Mosaic Law adhered to by Jews today? Don't B.S. me with regard to the law being forever and perpetual. They are today viewed, as the scriptures admonish us, as principles and knowledge and ways of determining the personality and thinking of God, but they are not "in force" today. Those laws, all 600 of them, are terminated as enforceable laws. In ignoring God's position on this, do you think you are honoring God, and doing His will, and obeying Him? Certainly not. In mistakenly thinking those laws are in effect, and by not obeying but a portion of them, are you honoring God, obeying Him, and doing His will? Either way you're not pleasing God, and you're not doing His will.

 

[metis]

No it does not. It makes you someone who needs to study the scriptures a whole lot more intensely than you have, so that you might better understand them.

OK, I'm going to use two posts for this, and the first deals with the Covenant and the second with the Law:

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of His covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.

 

[metis]

[continued from previous post, in this case dealing with the Law:

Deuteronomy 42): "your G-d…shall not add to what I have commanded you or subtract."

Dt. 13(1): "You shall be careful to observe, neither adding to it or subtracting."

Dt. 13(5): "His commandment you shall observe, holding fast to Him alone."

Dt. 29(28): "Concerns us and our descendents forever, that we may carry out all the words of this Law."

Joshua 1(5): "I will not leave or forsake you…(7) observe the entire Law … do not swerve from it."

Psalms 19(8): "The Law of the Lord is perfect… (10) the ordinances of the Lord are true; all of them are just."

Ps. 119(160): "permanence is Your words chief trait, each of Your just ordinances is everlasting."

Isaiah 42(21): "pleased the Lord in His justice to make His Law great and glorious."

Is. 66(17): "they who eat swine’s flesh … shall all perish."

Baruch 4(1): "the Law endures forever."

Since you have acted unethically by throwing an insult whereas none was warranted, this will not only be my last post to you, but I'm going to put you on ignore where you shall remain.

Goodbye.

 

[truthofscripture]

OK, I'm going to use two posts for this, and the first deals with the Covenant and the second with the Law:

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of His covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.

Again, you fail to consider the scriptures that were written after the Hebrew scriptures. You indicate that you believe God up to a point, and after that you disregard His words. They very clearly say that the covenant (Law Covenant) WAS abandoned as a result of the actions of Israel. The scriptures also clearly state that the Law covenant itself was a precursor to the path God laid out for man to cease sacrificing in atonement of sin. The Law Covenant was to bring us up to the point of the Messiah's coming, and his actions upon coming. Whether you choose to believe God or not, the Messiah DID come and he FULFILLED the Law covenant and replaced it with the New Covenant. The covenant that created the CHRISTIAN Congregation. The one that says if we believe in God's existence, and Jesus coming as the messiah, that we no longer need to sacrifice blood for sin. Jesus made one last sacrifice so that we don't need to make any more ourselves of blood. Animal blood doesn't cover the sin, but the Law covenant was a provision in place until the Messiah did his thing. He did that thing. Reject it or not, those are the facts. Refusal to accept it is antichrist. Creating a new religion out of the old and terminated Law covenant is nothing more than creating another false religion. Those engaging in ANY false religion are engaging in "works of the flesh". Those false religions are called "Babylon the Great" in Revelation to John, while he was imprisoned on Patmos. As the LAST inspired words of God, don't you think it's a good idea to know what those words are and mean? Do you not think it a good idea to consider ALL of the inspired words of our creator and sovereign? Me, for one, I certainly think it is a good idea to heed each and every word uttered by God. Man does not live on bread alone, but on EVERY utterance of Jehovah God as the scripture does say. It was ISRAEL who broke the covenants with God, constantly. It was ISRAEL that continued to ignore God's pleas over and over and over again, throughout their history. To think that God MUST continue an extinct covenant (contract) when the other side of the contract constantly broke it, is nothing short of absurd.

 

[truthofscripture]

[continued from previous post, in this case dealing with the Law:

Deuteronomy 42): "your G-d…shall not add to what I have commanded you or subtract."

Dt. 13(1): "You shall be careful to observe, neither adding to it or subtracting."

Dt. 13(5): "His commandment you shall observe, holding fast to Him alone."

Dt. 29(28): "Concerns us and our descendents forever, that we may carry out all the words of this Law."

Joshua 1(5): "I will not leave or forsake you…(7) observe the entire Law … do not swerve from it."

Psalms 19(8): "The Law of the Lord is perfect… (10) the ordinances of the Lord are true; all of them are just."

Ps. 119(160): "permanence is Your words chief trait, each of Your just ordinances is everlasting."

Isaiah 42(21): "pleased the Lord in His justice to make His Law great and glorious."

Is. 66(17): "they who eat swine’s flesh … shall all perish."

Baruch 4(1): "the Law endures forever."

Since you have acted unethically by throwing an insult whereas none was warranted, this will not only be my last post to you, but I'm going to put you on ignore where you shall remain.

Goodbye.

JEREMIAH 31:31 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.”

AND THIS FROM THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES AS YOU ASKED FOR.

 

[Domenic]

Again, you fail to consider the scriptures that were written after the Hebrew scriptures. You indicate that you believe God up to a point, and after that you disregard His words. They very clearly say that the covenant (Law Covenant) WAS abandoned as a result of the actions of Israel. The scriptures also clearly state that the Law covenant itself was a precursor to the path God laid out for man to cease sacrificing in atonement of sin. The Law Covenant was to bring us up to the point of the Messiah's coming, and his actions upon coming. Whether you choose to believe God or not, the Messiah DID come and he FULFILLED the Law covenant and replaced it with the New Covenant. The covenant that created the CHRISTIAN Congregation. The one that says if we believe in God's existence, and Jesus coming as the messiah, that we no longer need to sacrifice blood for sin. Jesus made one last sacrifice so that we don't need to make any more ourselves of blood. Animal blood doesn't cover the sin, but the Law covenant was a provision in place until the Messiah did his thing. He did that thing. Reject it or not, those are the facts. Refusal to accept it is antichrist. Creating a new religion out of the old and terminated Law covenant is nothing more than creating another false religion. Those engaging in ANY false religion are engaging in "works of the flesh". Those false religions are called "Babylon the Great" in Revelation to John, while he was imprisoned on Patmos. As the LAST inspired words of God, don't you think it's a good idea to know what those words are and mean? Do you not think it a good idea to consider ALL of the inspired words of our creator and sovereign? Me, for one, I certainly think it is a good idea to heed each and every word uttered by God. Man does not live on bread alone, but on EVERY utterance of Jehovah God as the scripture does say. It was ISRAEL who broke the covenants with God, constantly. It was ISRAEL that continued to ignore God's pleas over and over and over again, throughout their history. To think that God MUST continue an extinct covenant (contract) when the other side of the contract constantly broke it, is nothing short of absurd.

Well said, and 100% in line with Jehovah's word.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Good points, Metis. If you go through the gospel of Matthew and look at each fulfillment as Matthew calls it, and you look at the text Matthew quoted you will find that none of them predict anything. They aren't predictions. In addition the passage quoted concerning John the Baptist is Isaiah 40. Therefore the basis of Christianity is metaphorical not literal. There is no basis for saying that Christianity can supplant Judaism. Now its one thing for somebody to believe in Jesus being the messiah and another for them to start talking down to Jews. That is just arrogance and really embarrassing.

 

[truthofscripture]

Good points, Metis. If you go through the gospel of Matthew and look at each fulfillment as Matthew calls it, and you look at the text Matthew quoted you will find that none of them predict anything. They aren't predictions. In addition the passage quoted concerning John the Baptist is Isaiah 40. Therefore the basis of Christianity is metaphorical not literal. There is no basis for saying that Christianity can supplant Judaism. Now its one thing for somebody to believe in Jesus being the messiah and another for them to start talking down to Jews. That is just arrogance and really embarrassing.

Talking down to Jews? Sheesh! First of all, no prophecy is a "prediction". ALL prophecies yet not future, have ALL happened exactly as written. Supplant Judaism??? Now I've heard everything. Judaism is an INVENTED religion by Israel AFTER Jesus came and died. Since the law was ended, they took parts of the law covenant and assembled a religon that was mostly Pharasiacal. Another false religion. Jeremiah 31:31-32 say that the Law covenant would be ended and replaced by a new covenant. It was ended and replaced and "spiritual Israel" was created, replacing "physical Israel". Denying what the word of God says is so rediculous as to not having an adjective strong enough to describe it. Israel and Judah BROKE the Law Covenant (contract) with God so it was replaced. Israel MURDERED the messiah. God said Israel was "stiff necked" and they still are, denying a huge portion of God's inspired word. No matter, they were called antichrist then, and they haven't changed up till now. They're still antichrist, and it appears anti-God. It's quite rediculous, pretending to uphold the old Law covenant, but only incorporating parts of it and rejecting the sacrificing of blood to atone for their sins. It would take an ocean of blood to atone for what they are doing, and have been doing since they murdered Jesus. And God said that animal blood wasn't even good enough to be called a poor substitute for forgiveness of sin. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

 

[rosends]

JEREMIAH 31:31 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.”

AND THIS FROM THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES AS YOU ASKED FOR.

You should probably read the next couple of verses...the covenant is "new" in the placement and lack of need to be formally taught, but the content is the same Torah as it was before (verse 32 says that explicitly).

 

[rosends]

No it does not. It makes you someone who needs to study the scriptures a whole lot more intensely than you have, so that you might better understand them. God does not, and can not lie, ever. If you read a scripture that seems contradictory, then you have not gotten the correct sense of it. All scriptures must harmonize with all other scriptures, else we haven't gotten the true meaning of it.

And because your statement goes against the clear statements that the covenant is eternal, your understanding must be incorrect. You should study more intensely than you have. God does not lie -- if he says it is eternal, and you say it isn't, then you have said he is a liar and you must be wrong.

 

[rosends]

So tell me, why are animals not sacrificed today? Why aren't people stoned for violating the Mosaic Law today? Why are only some parts of the Mosaic Law adhered to by Jews today? Don't B.S. me with regard to the law being forever and perpetual. They are today viewed, as the scriptures admonish us, as principles and knowledge and ways of determining the personality and thinking of God, but they are not "in force" today. Those laws, all 600 of them, are terminated as enforceable laws. In ignoring God's position on this, do you think you are honoring God, and doing His will, and obeying Him? Certainly not. In mistakenly thinking those laws are in effect, and by not obeying but a portion of them, are you honoring God, obeying Him, and doing His will? Either way you're not pleasing God, and you're not doing His will.

Because the requirements for animal sacrifice cannot be fulfilled and we are commanded only to sacrifice in a certain place, when we have a certain status. You didn't read that part?