The Messiah/Moshiac

[Rakhel]

It is said in modern Rabbinic Judaism that "there is a potential Messiah born into every generation." And there have been many. Oh, so many. Most, if not all, have failed to fulfill all of the requirement that would satisfy every religion.

So my question is: who is your favorite failed Messiah/Moshiac?

 

[Rakhel]

Moses of Crete is my favorite.
I mean how many men can say they can walk on water and manage to convince others they can too?
Problem he ran into is he didn't experiment first. When his followers started drowning, he said, "OOPS!" and ran. They then tossed him in, then said, "Hey if you say you can walk on water, we wanna see."

 

[Flankerl]

I guess none since not one of them was the moshiach.


I'd rather believe that a real nobody had the potential to become moshiach than some self proclaimed wannabe.

 

[Caladan]

It is said in modern Rabbinic Judaism that "there is a potential Messiah born into every generation." And there have been many. Oh, so many. Most, if not all, have failed to fulfill all of the requirement that would satisfy every religion.

So my question is: who is your favorite failed Messiah/Moshiac?

Once the Chief Rabbinate in Israel will be pushed out of the domestic politics bit by bit, and with each day. eventually those Jews who actually wait for a messiah will grow out of the tradition. once religious zealots come to terms more and more with the fact that most Jews in Israel do not wait for a messiah, or a single man to redeem them, they will grow out of the tradition, out of sheer reality.

 

[Rakhel]

Spoil sports.

 

[xkatz]

The only one I have ever heard of is Simon bar Kokhba.

 

[Rakhel]

There are a whole lists of them. Some I left off out of respect and others sounded like repeats of the ones I put in the poll.

 

[Levite]

Well, I put Bar Kokhba, since he actually kicked some a**, and seems pretty cool.

But all seriousness aside, I actually always liked Yakov Frank. He claimed he was not only the reincarnation of Shabtai Tzvi, but King David as well. He rejected the Talmud, and claimed the only post-Biblical book that was sacred was the Zohar (though how you could accept the Kabbalah of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, but not the halakhah of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai and his teachers, students, and friends, I was never clear on). He claimed that he respected Christian scripture, and believed that moshiach was actually an embodiment of part of the trinity, although he was said to favor the practice of Sabbatean Kabbalah mixed with a little black magic to spice things up.

He was also a hell of a hedonist. He proclaimed polygamy, and then did his best to follow his proclamation. He appears to have enjoyed mass quantities of rich food, wine, liquor, and possibly more mind-altering substances, as well as hot and cold running chicks.

He got chased around Eastern Europe a bit by different Jewish communities, got different Christians to protect him, occasionally got tossed into the Christian clink for a long stretch despite that, but succeeded in dying rich, ennobled, and apparently contented, at a relatively ripe old age.

 

[Rakhel]

Well, I put Bar Kokhba, since he actually kicked some a**, and seems pretty cool.

Bar Kokhbar was very cool and probably closer to achieving Mosiach than that of Shneerson

But all seriousness aside, I actually always liked Yakov Frank. He claimed he was not only the reincarnation of Shabtai Tzvi, but King David as well. He rejected the Talmud, and claimed the only post-Biblical book that was sacred was the Zohar (though how you could accept the Kabbalah of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, but not the halakhah of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai and his teachers, students, and friends, I was never clear on). He claimed that he respected Christian scripture, and believed that moshiach was actually an embodiment of part of the trinity, although he was said to favor the practice of Sabbatean Kabbalah mixed with a little black magic to spice things up.

He was also a hell of a hedonist. He proclaimed polygamy, and then did his best to follow his proclamation. He appears to have enjoyed mass quantities of rich food, wine, liquor, and possibly more mind-altering substances, as well as hot and cold running chicks.

He got chased around Eastern Europe a bit by different Jewish communities, got different Christians to protect him, occasionally got tossed into the Christian clink for a long stretch despite that, but succeeded in dying rich, ennobled, and apparently contented, at a relatively ripe old age.

That is definitely more than I was aware of of Frank. Though admittedly, I only did a cursory scan of the list I had.
I am not too sure I want to ask but I feel I must..."Hot and cold running chicks?" Is that saying what I think it's saying? That not all of them had a pulse?

 

[kylixguru]

I answered 'other' because my favorite 'failed' Messiah was someone who didn't claim to be the Messiah but was actually here in that capacity as an advent of Messiah from Ephraim. His name is Joseph Smith Jr. I put quotes around 'failed' because the failure was actually supposed to happen. Therefore, he succeeded at the kind of failure that had to happen, if that makes any sense.

 

[Rakhel]

I answered 'other' because my favorite 'failed' Messiah was someone who didn't claim to be the Messiah but was actually here in that capacity as an advent of Messiah from Ephraim. His name is Joseph Smith Jr. I put quotes around 'failed' because the failure was actually supposed to happen. Therefore, he succeeded at the kind of failure that had to happen, if that makes any sense.

I admit I am having trouble wrapping my head around how a failure can be a success. I can see how it would work in science...no I think I made it around the corner. Your reasoning kind of makes sense

 

[kylixguru]

I admit I am having trouble wrapping my head around how a failure can be a success. I can see how it would work in science...no I think I made it around the corner. Your reasoning kind of makes sense

Jesus was in the same boat. His 'success' was to get 'crucified'.

 

[Starsoul]

Moses of Crete is my favorite.
I mean how many men can say they can walk on water and manage to convince others they can too?
Problem he ran into is he didn't experiment first. When his followers started drowning, he said, "OOPS!" and ran. They then tossed him in, then said, "Hey if you say you can walk on water, we wanna see."

Do jews believe that Moses drowned in the water that separated for him, making 12 separate pathways for him and his people to walk them across the lake /ocean ( which ever vast amount of water that was) when the pharoah was chasing him with his army and there came a sea which had to be crossed ?

I would actually like to know how that story is recollected or presented as in Torah/Tanakh or any jewish literature, thanks. If you can link me up to a source, i'll help myself around it

And also, if the Moses of Crete is the same or someone else that you talk about.

 

[Rakhel]

Do jews believe that Moses drowned in the water that separated for him, making 12 separate pathways for him and his people to walk them across the lake /ocean ( which ever vast amount of water that was) when the pharoah was chasing him with his army and there came a sea which had to be crossed ?

I would actually like to know how that story is recollected or presented as in Torah/Tanakh or any jewish literature, thanks. If you can link me up to a source, i'll help myself around it

And also, if the Moses of Crete is the same or someone else that you talk about.

Different Moses. This Moses was from Crete. An island in the Mediterranean.

 

[Starsoul]

Since my explanation of Messiah isnt there in the OP,I'll write it here. I believe, that A Messiah will definitely come( ALL religions, even hinduism and some karma faiths) indicate and include the glad tidings of his arrival. But ofcorse, Only one of these explanations can be true if he is to arrive.( if one is to arrive at the conclusion logically)

And when he comes, It will be a world wide phenomenon, it just cannot be a jewish christian or a hindu Messiah, A messiah is to be for all humanity if there is truth to his existence. And hence, all other insignificant episodes of self acclaimed Messiahs confined to small areas don't seem to go well with the concept of a Messiah.

And In Islam, it is believed that hazrat Eesa( Jesus Christ) will be the last messiah who will re-arrive with all glory and serve to dissolve all major disputes/confusions of religious divide among the major Abrahamic faiths Judaism, Islam , and Christianity.

Apart from that , there is said to be a Jewish Messiah to come right BEFORE Jesus Christ, who is going to be VERY powerful and will claim to be the Only Messiah and it is said in the texts that about 70,000 jews will be his ardent supporters. He will rule the world, will claim divinity, will claim to be invincible, infallible, untill the Real Messiah will come to expose his strong deception.

 

[Rakhel]

The only reason I put (some)Jewish and Christian failed Messiahs is because those are the only ones I am familiar with. There were Islamic and even Buddhist Messiahs in my list but I know nothing of what those religions are looking for, and quite basically, assumed that their Messiah(s) had come and gone.(though I am aware of the Buddhist reincarnation thoughts) AND I didn't want to insult those religions due to my ignorance.
To note: there were members of LDS and certain Jewish and Christian names that I intentionally left of the list because while I may not see them as Messianic, I know many others do.
I tried to include only the ones I knew wouldn't offend. But the list was long and, I know, not complete.That is why "other" was an option.

 

[Starsoul]

I completely understand what you're saying and ofcorse i did not meant to say that you did not intentionally include other messiahs, i myself am aware somewhat of the Messiah Concepts of mainstream Judaism, Christianity and Islam, with whatever little I know. That is why this topic is in the comparative religion where other people could contribute their thoughts on it : )