• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Military Fights to Defend our Freedom, or absurdist things the news tells me.

christallen

Cynical Optimist
These days I see a lot of talk in the news media about military action being vital to personal freedoms. The phrase typically used is some variation of ‘The military fights to defend our freedom’ and is coupled with some kind of sentimental talk about supporting the troops and their mission. I find this position to be absolutely absurd and can see no evidence of any of our current conflicts having any direct effect on civil liberties, except in cases where the civilian government restricts those freedoms in the sake of ‘security.’ Through most of the history of this country, the military has been used to suppress individual liberty and support oppressive policies.

We are currently fighting two wars that can be understood in the traditional sense and one war that seems to be using the term in an abstract fashion. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have effectively proven themselves to be unnecessary conflicts whose only purpose seems to be some kind of protection of corporate interests or worldwide police action. While the Iraq war was sold to the American public as necessary to prevent worldwide catastrophe, the Afghanistan war banked on this country’s citizens' want for revenge after the World Trade Center tragedy. Both of these tangible conflicts have absolutely no effect on civil liberties within this country. They are completely self-contained within their conflict zones. While they take a toll on the economy, morale, and life expectancies of the countries involved, stateside freedom is simply not an issue.

The one war that is a bit more abstract is the War on Terror. This is a conflict that has no specific location, and takes place in a worldwide arena. The policies that have spurred from this conflict have definitely affected civil liberties in this country but in a negative sense. The War on Terror has resulted in the passing of The Patriot Act which does more to strip away the rights guaranteed in the constitution than any other government policy since the Second World War. In recent months, our president has even authorized the assassination of American citizens who are identified as ‘enemy combatants’. The wide scope of this war, and the vague definition of the enemy allows for further intrusions into personal liberties on the pretense of protecting our citizens. This is certainly not the first time that the government has pushed these policies, but perhaps we should take heed of the words of Benjamin Franklin, “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Many times in the history of this country, the military has been used in the service of the elite to suppress the disadvantaged. In the 19th century, the military was used on multiple occasions to break strikes and ensure continued productivity from a work force that had to deal with absolutely horrible working conditions. Subsequently, in the 20th century, the military has been called in to intimidate and sometimes violently disrupt peaceful protests. You can still see a strong National Guard presence at most any large protest, and they still carry automatic weapons as if they’ve learned nothing since the Kent State massacre. One of the most glaring misuses of the military in recent years was in the New Orleans area in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. While there were definitely soldiers working to save people from the flooded city, there are reports of soldiers firing on looters and guarding the property of affluent members of the city.

Typically when I express my views on this issue, I am told that the only reason I can say such things is that young men have died for the freedom I so cherish. I simply respond that no government can give me freedom, and no war can be fought in the name of liberty. I was born free, and the only power the feds have is to take my freedom away.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I agree the notion the military is always deployed to defend our freedom is more often wrong than right.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
How many fanatical Muslims have to attempt to kill Americans to make you believe that we are at war with them? Just off the top of my head there is Major Nasan, who murdered 13 Americans. The Christmas-day bomber and the Times Square bomber.

Why are some people so blind to that fact that they want us dead?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There is a very convincing argument to be made that waging war is the best way of making it necessary, Joe. It is not like the American Military hasn't killed Muslim foreigners either, you know. Nor are all of them military at all.

To a significant extent (as Gen. Petraeus seems to realize, since he created the COIN strategy) it is the very readiness of America's forces that encourages the fanatical Muslims that you talk about. Losing one's dear people to foreign soldiers has a a way of making one more fanatical and desperate. War breeds war.

Of course some of them will want "them" dead. How would you feel in their place?
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friends,

I agree the notion the military is always deployed to defend our freedom is more often wrong than right.
__________________

It is understood that every act is an act to set right a wrong and what is right and wrong are all human perceptions which is always there on both sides of the act which in itself is neither right nor wrong.

Love & rgds
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Luis,

There is a very convincing argument to be made that waging war is the best way of making it necessary, Joe. It is not like the American Military hasn't killed Muslim foreigners either, you know. Nor are all of them military at all.

Are you calling the actions of Major Nasan, the Christmas bomber and the Times Square bomber justified?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Hi Luis,



Are you calling the actions of Major Nasan, the Christmas bomber and the Times Square bomber justified?

No. I AM however saying that sending soldiers after them will only make them feel more justified, not less.

And sending soldiers after other people to discourage them is in fact MUCH worse even. A disaster, frankly.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Luis,

No. I AM however saying that sending soldiers after them will only make them feel more justified, not less.

Of course a couple of points need to be made here. In the case of Major Nasan, the Christmas Day bomber, and the Times Square bomber, the terrorists specifically targeted civilians (in the Nasan case the members of the US military weren't in combat). Second, them feeling justified in their cause means nothing and it tells us nothing about the rightness of their cause. And third, when we send our soldiers into the fray as in Iraq, we leave it a better place. Iraq is the only functioning democracy in the Arab world thanks to the US military.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Iraq is the only functioning democracy in the Arab world thanks to the US military.
It may be a democracy, sort of, but it's quite a stretch to say it's functioning.

Jordan is a constitutional monarchy with a democratically elected parliament, and functioning much better than Iraq.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Of course a couple of points need to be made here. In the case of Major Nasan, the Christmas Day bomber, and the Times Square bomber, the terrorists specifically targeted civilians (in the Nasan case the members of the US military weren't in combat).

Of course. They are terrorists, not suicidal fools. They are not about to march into some US military base to play strongarm directly with the biggest and most expensive military in the world.

Second, them feeling justified in their cause means nothing and it tells us nothing about the rightness of their cause.

Of course it doesn't. That is how wars work, after all.

But I thought we were discussing safety and motivation, not righteousness?

And third, when we send our soldiers into the fray as in Iraq, we leave it a better place.

That is arguable at best.

I personally think it may be marginally true, but not to any degree that justifies the terrible price that was and will still be paid in its wake.

Quite frankly, invading Iraq was a case of the USA chewing out its own foot. Raw, at that. It accomplished little more than reinforcing some dangerous American delusions and ruining its foreign policy and public image.

Iraq is the only functioning democracy in the Arab world thanks to the US military.

That is a direct contradiction of words. Democracy, by definition, relies on the civil population, never the military.

Much less a foreign military that unavoidably brings with itself the taint of humiliation and fear.

I can't help but wonder how popular such a mentality would be in 1776.
 
Last edited:

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It quite possibly is. To the extent that Obama even has a pick to choose. Then again, neither Biden nor Obama chose to invade Iraq; they inherited the situation in a very much irreversible state.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
The US military's purpose is to protect and defend US INTERESTS - which include, but are not limited to, freedom.

Some of our interests are selfish, but I want our leaders to put US interests first. It's their job. If they don't like it, they should go work for the UN.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Luis,

Of course. They are terrorists, not suicidal fools. They are not about to march into some US military base to play strongarm directly with the biggest and most expensive military in the world.

Just seeing how sympathetic you were going go get with these thugs.

But I thought we were discussing safety and motivation, not righteousness?

Right, lets get back on topic ...

That is arguable at best.

I personally think it may be marginally true, but not to any degree that justifies the terrible price that was and will still be paid in its wake.

Quite frankly, invading Iraq was a case of the USA chewing out its own foot. Raw, at that. It accomplished little more than reinforcing some dangerous American delusions and ruining its foreign policy and public image.

This is hilarious. I wonder what the image of the US is of Iraqis that get to argue politics without fear of the execution and the torture chamber. This was a strategic decision. The families in Iraq that have much more control over their lives was the point because democracies rarely breed large scale terrorist networks. The decision to invade Iraq obviously wasn't made to pander to lefties in London, Paris, Brussels or Brazil. They didn't like the US before the invasion and will most likely never change their mind.

That is a direct contradiction of words. Democracy, by definition, relies on the civil population, never the military.

The yoke of Saddam's dictatorship was removed by the US military and the institutions of democracy were nurtured by the US. The Iraqis chose democracy when the elections came around defying the liberal claim that you can't 'create democracy by the barrel of the gun.'
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Just seeing how sympathetic you were going go get with these thugs.

Never mind me. Compared to much of the world at large, I'm practically a foolish americanophile.

What you may be failing to realize is that to many foreigners the most fearsome thugs are those that come from other countries, speak other languages, invade and kill under false pretense and pack obscenely expensive weapons to boot. That is simply not a workable way of building trust and democracy.

This is hilarious.

I find it tragic myself, but if you say so.

I wonder what the image of the US is of Iraqis that get to argue politics without fear of the execution and the torture chamber.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here.

This was a strategic decision. The families in Iraq that have much more control over their lives was the point because democracies rarely breed large scale terrorist networks.

Then again, military invasions don't breed democracies either, so what is the point?

The decision to invade Iraq obviously wasn't made to pander to lefties in London, Paris, Brussels or Brazil.

Obviously. No one expected it, either. Why are you even mentioning it?

They didn't like the US before the invasion and will most likely never change their mind.

Not as long as the US keeps using heavy weapons as a substitute for foreign policy, certainly. Nor should they. Thug behavior is not to be rewarded, after all.

The yoke of Saddam's dictatorship was removed by the US military and the institutions of democracy were nurtured by the US.

So goes the claim, anyway. I personally wonder how many people believe it, for sincerely, it is self-contradictory by construction.

The Iraqis chose democracy when the elections came around defying the liberal claim that you can't 'create democracy by the barrel of the gun.'

Electing a government is not proof of democracy. As a south american, I know full well how often dictators are freely elected. It proves nothing about democracy.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
How many fanatical Muslims have to attempt to kill Americans to make you believe that we are at war with them? Just off the top of my head there is Major Nasan, who murdered 13 Americans.

More people die annually from peanut allergies than terrorism. We should put 500 billion into bombing peanut farms and dismantling Planter's. Damn you, George Washington Carver!
 

dust1n

Zindīq
More people die annually from peanut allergies than terrorism. We should put 500 billion into bombing peanut farms and dismantling Planter's. Damn you, George Washington Carver!

Okay, I'm just being late night silly. But, way more teens die from automobile accidents a year, way, way more, but it gets but the tiniest cut of public funding.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Luis,

Quote:
I wonder what the image of the US is of Iraqis that get to argue politics without fear of the execution and the torture chamber.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here.

The dictatorship of Saddam has been removed. While there are still problems, there is little fear that speaking out politicaly will land you six feet under or in jail indefinately as had happened under Saddam. Is this an improvement?

Obviously. No one expected it, either. Why are you even mentioning it?

You talked about the US 'image' being harmed by the Iraq war, I was merely pointing out how pointless it is to talk about US 'image' being hurt when the only people who bring up America's troublesome image are the ones that don't like it much anyway.

Not as long as the US keeps using heavy weapons as a substitute for foreign policy, certainly. Nor should they. Thug behavior is not to be rewarded, after all.

I believe those heavy weapons did a magnificent job for our foreign policy in Iraq.

Electing a government is not proof of democracy. As a south american, I know full well how often dictators are freely elected. It proves nothing about democracy.

So you should know that Iraq has satisfied the three F's of a stable democracy: free, frequent and fair elections. It has not been a one and done like many South American countries.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
More people die annually from peanut allergies than terrorism. We should put 500 billion into bombing peanut farms and dismantling Planter's. Damn you, George Washington Carver!

This is a cute way to put it, and I have to admit I chuckled when I read this post - but it's, well, not true.

All food allergies combined cause about 150 to 200 deaths per year. All of those are not peanut allergies, so that number is even less than 200 per year.

I found numerous sources to support that figure - here's one:

Peanut allergy can be deadly - CNN.com


The global number of deaths from terrorist attacks in 2008 was 15,775. In 2007 the figure was 22,508.

Terrorist Attacks Fell 18 Percent in 2008, Report Says
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Okay, I'm just being late night silly. But, way more teens die from automobile accidents a year, way, way more, but it gets but the tiniest cut of public funding.

In the US, 2,739 drivers between the ages of 15 and 20 died in motor vehicle crashes in 2008.

http://www.rmiia.org/auto/teens/Teen_Driving_Statistics.asp

And most of them pretty much did this to themselves (or their friends) - due to being inexperienced drivers. The vast majority of these people were not MURDERED by people who hate them and their way of life.

Sorry - no comparison to deaths caused by terrorism.
 
Top