The Military Fights to Defend our Freedom, or absurdist things the news tells me.

[LuisDantas]

This is a straw man of my position.

Is it? I honestly see no other way of making sense of your previous statements.

Nowhere did I claim that democracy miraculously rises up after a dictatorship is toppled. You speculated that GWB believed such a thing (with no proof mind you) and then transferred this absurd belief to my worldview (again with no proof of me actually believing it).

I said as much. I honestly don't know why you're upset. If that is not what you believe, then in which other way do you justify the US intervention in Iraq?

You seriously believe the UN would have removed Saddam from power? Do you actually believe that?

Not necessarily, but then again that is hardly the matter. Saddam has been dead for years and Iraq is not all that better for it. Saddam Hussein was not the devil.

More to the point, UN has legitimacy that would make much difference in the political situation of the Middle East. Much of the motivation of terrorists in the current day could be removed if more diplomatic means had been pursued. GWB is a war criminal, morally if not formally, for deliberately choosing to wage war when none was called for.

In your utopian worldview military weaponry is considered a bad thing.

When they become one of the main employers and economic influences of a country - particularly the major nation of the whole world?

You bet that is a bad thing. A tragic thing, at the very least. It doesn't take any utopic leanings to realize that.

I am asking you how would the Nazis have been stopped in your world. If military weaponry could not have been used, what would have stopped the Nazis? Your reality-defying belief system cannot account for actually stopping evil in this world (I'm sure you don't believe evil exists, except maybe to label Israel as evil).

You realize that the Nazis were invading countries and running an arms race in a world that lacked the current resources for avoiding military escalation, right?

Then you certainly realize how ill fitting this comparison is. There is way too much wishful thinking on your ideas.

BTW, please don't accuse me of anti-semitism or even anti-zionism so casually. That is just gross and speaks ill of you.

 

[Aquitaine]

Iraq is the only functioning democracy in the Arab world thanks to the US military.

You've got to be kidding me right? Iraq is a total freaking disaster now. Go visit Basra, the people there don't even have enough water that they line up for hours to enter COB Basra just to get bottled Water, especially now that the Iranians are tryign to blockade thier access to the sea water. They have no reliable source of electricity either - imagine trying to live in Basra with no air conditioning?

Oh and with regards to this glorious Democratic election that they had, about 450 candidates ended up being bared from the candidacy.

It still utterly shocks me that so many people in both our countries still think the Iraq war and occupation was justified, and that Iraq is now a better place. Not only were the allegations against Iraq nothing but dirty lies, but we even admitted that we had no freaking after-plan for the country!

Good job! :sarcastic

 

[Aquitaine]

Hi Sunstone,

Read The Al-Qeada Reader by Raymond Ibrahim and then get back to us. You obviously don't even know what they believe. Do your homework.

Amazon.com: The Al Qaeda Reader (9780767922623): Raymond Ibrahim: Books

Out of curiosity, you are aware that the Muhajideen and Bin Laden were funded and trained by the CIA? Hell Bin Laden was an asset to the CIA, what was his asset name again, Tim Osman? Tim Osmand?

Meh.....

 

[Sunstone]

Hi Sunstone,



Read The Al-Qeada Reader by Raymond Ibrahim and then get back to us. You obviously don't even know what they believe. Do your homework.

Amazon.com: The Al Qaeda Reader (9780767922623): Raymond Ibrahim: Books

Joe, did your reader tell you that the number one reason given our interrogators for why they are fighting us is that we are killing them? If it didn't, then I would question your reader's usefulness.

 

[Rio Sabinas]

christallen,
Back to your original thread....
If you have an enemy you think you'll have to go to war with, arrange the war to take place at his
house and not your own. (I think that's from Sun Szu - The Art of War)

 

[dust1n]

Hey don't blame the Military if the politicians don't spend enough on something you want them to spend on. after all they don't control the purse strings. and dont blame the Military if the politicians send them to do the job their trained for if you don't agree with it. take it up with the politicians at polling day.

I don't know if war crimes is a matter of voting. However, I don't see anyone in military complaining about what they are doing (assuming they have any high-paying rank).

 

[kai]

I don't know if war crimes is a matter of voting. However, I don't see anyone in military complaining about what they are doing (assuming they have any high-paying rank).

what war crimes? Soldiers do their job, why would they be complaining about anything other than politicians hindering their job?

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn, do you seriously believe the main reason the US is attacked by terrorists is because the terrorists hate our way of life? If so, who told you that?

I believe that one of the main reasons terrorists target the US and other areas all over the world is because so many of them are radical religious extremists who despise secular, Western society.

And nobody has to tell me that. It seems quite obvious to me.

In fact, I think that anyone denying this fact is missing an integral part of the equation.

It's not the whole reason - I think there are different reasons for different terrorists. But I think the tendency to self detonate in areas crowded by civilians is fueled largely by religious extremism.

 

[Badran]

what war crimes? Soldiers do their job, why would they be complaining about anything other than politicians hindering their job?

You don't find what is happening in Iraq as war crimes?

 

[Badran]

I believe that one of the main reasons terrorists target the US and other areas all over the world is because so many of them are radical religious extremists who despise secular, Western society.

And nobody has to tell me that. It seems quite obvious to me.

In fact, I think that anyone denying this fact is missing an integral part of the equation.

It's not the whole reason - I think there are different reasons for different terrorists. But I think the tendency to self detonate in areas crowded by civilians is fueled largely by religious extremism.

Osama Bin Laden's son was once interviewed in Egypt. And he was asked how does his father justify attacking civilians. You know what he said?

He said the the reelecting of Bush shows that the American citizens approve of what Bush does, and therefore they are worthy of being killed. (that was his father's argument, not his).

Now regardless of how ridiculous that argument is, do you really think if the US wasn't invading countries and supporting other invading countries, that things would be the same?

You really think that there would be such terrorism just because they hate your life style?

Assuming that the hatred towards your life style is indeed a factor, do you think it is the main one? Or the fact that the US is at war with other countries and invading their land?

 

[LuisDantas]

I believe that one of the main reasons terrorists target the US and other areas all over the world is because so many of them are radical religious extremists who despise secular, Western society.

Maybe so. But I sortta suspect all those military activities and all the destruction and casualties that come as consequence don't quite help in making those radicals less numerous or less respected.

It's basic human nature, really. People who are invaded by a foreign, culturally distant and militarily far superior opponent are not quick to enact understanding or sympathy to that opponent. Much on the contrary, they'll rise in arms at the first opportunity that even vaguely hints of giving the control of their destinies back to them.

And nobody has to tell me that. It seems quite obvious to me.

In fact, I think that anyone denying this fact is missing an integral part of the equation.

It's not the whole reason - I think there are different reasons for different terrorists. But I think the tendency to self detonate in areas crowded by civilians is fueled largely by religious extremism.

Which, by its turn, would largely die off were it not for major social, economic and military factors that fuel it. There is a reason why that extremism is so rare and inconsequential in the absense of those factors.

 

[Rio Sabinas]

Yes Kathryn, they target Western scociety because they don't want to join the 21st. Century.
They're being dragged into it kickin', screamin' & lashing out violently.
In my opinion, they have twisted their religon to accomodate their hate.

 

[Internecivus Raptus]

do you really think if the US wasn't invading countries and supporting other invading countries, that things would be the same?

You really think that there would be such terrorism just because they hate your life style?

Assuming that the hatred towards your life style is indeed a factor, do you think it is the main one? Or the fact that the US is at war with other countries and invading their land?

Exactly. The United States is targeted because of our involvement in the Middle East and our support of Israel. Other secular, Western countries have not been targeted to the extent that the U.S. has been. It's not our secular Western lifestyle that is causing these people to blow themselves and others to bits.

 

[LuisDantas]

Come to think of it, there is plenty of faithful Muslims living in secular, western countries, Mosques and all. Including the city where I lived for half my life and the one I live now.

If they are often revolted with our lifestyle to to extent of becoming criminally aggressive, then someone is doing a very impressive job of keeping that a secret. Serious as the challenges of integration and peaceful convivence are, they never come close to that level as long as differences of belief are the only thing to overcome. If anything, most Muslims keep to themselves and avoid interacting with others perhaps a bit too much.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Intern,

There is no comparison between WWII Germany and our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. When we invaded Iraq the second time and Afghanistan, those countries posed no immediate threat to the U.S. or its allies. Afghanistan was guilty of harboring a terrorist organization, not plotting to takeover the free world. Iraq was no threat at all. The expenditure in lives, money and resources in both those wars is totally unjustified, and has only increased the hatred toward the U.S. that helped fuel the terrorist attacks in the first place.

I wasn't arguing that WWII and our current wars are the same. I was making the point that the use of the military achieved a desirable goal (namely, no more Nazi regime, no more Taliban harboring al-Qaeda, no more of Saddam's regime).

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi FlyingTeaPot,

The fanatical muslims you mentioned were american citizens as well. Well, at least two of them. And the third was Nigerian.

So, what is your point? Unless your making the fantastic claim that the ideological origins of radical Islam doesn't reside in the Middle East. As if this murderous worldview could not export itself to Americans like Nasan and the Times Square bomber.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Luis,

I said as much. I honestly don't know why you're upset. If that is not what you believe, then in which other way do you justify the US intervention in Iraq?

One line of justification would be the advanced state of Iraq's civil society prepared it better than most Arab countries to progress from a toppled dictatorship to a fledgling democracy. And this would completely undercut your absurd belief ascribed to Bush and then myself that democracy can instantly rise from the ashes of a toppled regime.

Not necessarily, but then again that is hardly the matter. Saddam has been dead for years and Iraq is not all that better for it.

Iraq is not much better off, hmm, successive elections doesn't make Iraq much better off than under Saddam?

Saddam Hussein was not the devil.

What would it take to make him a devil, hell he killed about a million Arabs. That makes him pretty devilish in my book.

More to the point, UN has legitimacy that would make much difference in the political situation of the Middle East. Much of the motivation of terrorists in the current day could be removed if more diplomatic means had been pursued. GWB is a war criminal, morally if not formally, for deliberately choosing to wage war when none was called for.

I'm starting to get a better grasp of your worldview. GWB is a war criminal, the UN is a legitimate organization, and Israel is genocidal and no moral condemnation of Hamas and Hezbollah.

BTW, please don't accuse me of anti-semitism or even anti-zionism so casually. That is just gross and speaks ill of you.

I don't do it casually. You have called Israel a genocidal country and have said nothing about truly genocidal groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. That moral blindness speaks for itself.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Paul,

You've got to be kidding me right? Iraq is a total freaking disaster now. Go visit Basra, the people there don't even have enough water that they line up for hours to enter COB Basra just to get bottled Water, especially now that the Iranians are tryign to blockade thier access to the sea water. They have no reliable source of electricity either - imagine trying to live in Basra with no air conditioning?

Oh and with regards to this glorious Democratic election that they had, about 450 candidates ended up being bared from the candidacy.

It still utterly shocks me that so many people in both our countries still think the Iraq war and occupation was justified, and that Iraq is now a better place. Not only were the allegations against Iraq nothing but dirty lies, but we even admitted that we had no freaking after-plan for the country!

Two cheers for Saddam. Much better than that messy democratic stuff. And some cities are still rebuilding, no ***** sherlock, there was just a war there.

Out of curiosity, you are aware that the Muhajideen and Bin Laden were funded and trained by the CIA? Hell Bin Laden was an asset to the CIA, what was his asset name again, Tim Osman? Tim Osmand?

Meh.....

This is not true.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Sunstone,

Joe, did your reader tell you that the number one reason given our interrogators for why they are fighting us is that we are killing them? If it didn't, then I would question your reader's usefulness.

Your lack of intellectual curiosity is very evident. The book is a compilation of writings from UBL and his number two in al-Qaeda. And yes, from their own words they hate us for our freedom. They believe our culture leads to apostasy and therefore needs to be destroyed.

But maybe now that Obama has come out and condemned al-Qaeda for its racism (I thought the mass murder was worse, but that's just me) you can say some bad words about our enemies.

 

[Sunstone]

Hi Sunstone,



Your lack of intellectual curiosity is very evident.

You'll have to forgive me, Joe. You don't have much of a track record for recommendations. Take this one for instance. You have failed to grasp that we're talking about the whole spectrum of Muslims fighting the US, and not just al-Qaeda. Consequently, you are assuming that the opinions of two people in al-Qaeda fairly represent the opinions of thousands of various fighters. That would be an interesting mistake if only it were an intelligent mistake. Alas! It is not even that.

American military interrogators have said the number one reason the people they interrogate are fighting us is that they are furious with us for killing Muslims. Each time we kill someone, we increase the odds his brother, his cousin, his friend, or perhaps just another member of his religion will take up arms against us -- according to the interrogators. Maybe Usima Bin Ladin and his number two guy hate us for our way of life. But by far, most of the Muslims fighting us are fighting us because we have been killing Muslims.

That's not all that different from the way so many Americans joined the military after seeing the deaths of 9/11. The desire to revenge attacks on your friends, family, nation, or religious group is universal.

Try to understand it, Joe.