The Military Fights to Defend our Freedom, or absurdist things the news tells me.

[Badran]

Hi Badran,

Is a free, democratic Iraq better for Muslims than a tyranny in Iraq?

Hi Joe Stocks, yes it is undoubtedly better. But, only if achieved through the Iraqi people, or even with the help of the US but not though military invasion. Not through this way, if we assume that is the motive.

I personally do not believe that is the motive behind the war. I think you're not putting in mind a lot of things when considering this. And Iraq is indeed in much worse shape now. May be in the future it will change, like you said earlier it is a slow process. But the change which supposedly might come does not justify the civilians casualties and the multiple form of criminal acts perpetrated against the Iraqi people. Nothing justifies interfering in such manner.

Except were these Muslims acting in the same way when Saddam was murdering about a million Muslims? I don't think so. There seems to be selective moral outrage here.

Good point, but i think we should put in mind the difference between the two situations. For example the lack of military defense for the countries being attacked plays a major factor in the desperation. Also, the fact that the US somehow resembles more of a bad guy than another middle eastern country. I hope you don't jump to conclusions on what i'm saying, my point is the US has the strongest army in the world, it is invading two middle eastern Arab, majority populated muslim countries and there is nobody fighting back. Its support to Israel which you very well know what it means. All plays major factors in giving motives to people to blow themselves up and resort to such measures. (note, i'm mainly not talking about leaders of terroristic groups).

Oh please, in Saudi Arabia women can't even drive and where a woman gets jail time and 200 lashes for getting gang raped (the unhealthy mixing of the sexes was her fault of course).

Here is why i think you do not know enough about Muslims. These things you're talking about are viewed as despicable, and its not how women are treated with the majority of muslims around the world, including other middle eastern countries. There are numbered places where these exotic and disgusting stuff goes on.

This insane tribalism is why the Arab-Muslim culture is one of most backward in the world. Saddam kills a million people and its the US fault (what no Israeli role?). This is ric

I would like to comment on this part if you don't mind. Allow me to get something out of the way, nothing exempts Saddam from the blame.

However, that also does not exempt those who helped and might've incited or in anyway shape or form played a considerable role in this. And aside from wether or not this is the case, i think we both know its not as a strange proposal as you make it sound. A lot of people know this, and i'm sure you've heard before. Even some American citizens believe this, so really, "tribalism" and Arab-muslim culture has nothing to do with this.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Sunstone,

What I accept is the belief of our military interrogators that the primary reasons they are fighting us is because we are killing them. What you don't accept is that the belief of our military interrogators can reasonably count for more than the opinions of Joe Stocks.

Except that this is false. Where were we killing Muslims when Marine barracks was bombed in Beirut in 1983? Where were we killing Muslims when the WTC was attacked the first time? Where were we killing Muslims when al-Qaeda bombed the embassies in East Africa in 1998? Where were we killing Muslims when the USS Cole was bombed in 2000? And where were we killing Muslims when 9/11 attacks occurred?

Your argument is that the only reason Muslim terrorists are fighting us is because we started killing them. This is false.

 

[Sunstone]

Hi Sunstone,



Except that this is false. Where were we killing Muslims when Marine barracks was bombed in Beirut in 1983? Where were we killing Muslims when the WTC was attacked the first time? Where were we killing Muslims when al-Qaeda bombed the embassies in East Africa in 1998? Where were we killing Muslims when the USS Cole was bombed in 2000? And where were we killing Muslims when 9/11 attacks occurred?

That was then, this is now. Apparently, motives can change.

Your argument is that the only reason Muslim terrorists are fighting us is because we started killing them. This is false.

Nope. I have never said that our killing them is the only reason they are fighting us. Again, you are putting words in my mouth.

 

[Badran]

Hi Sunstone,

Except that this is false. Where were we killing Muslims when Marine barracks was bombed in Beirut in 1983? Where were we killing Muslims when the WTC was attacked the first time? Where were we killing Muslims when al-Qaeda bombed the embassies in East Africa in 1998? Where were we killing Muslims when the USS Cole was bombed in 2000? And where were we killing Muslims when 9/11 attacks occurred?

Your argument is that the only reason Muslim terrorists are fighting us is because we started killing them. This is false.

Allow me once again. Nobody is saying this is the motive for every body, or everywhere or anytime. And nobody is saying it is the only reason. We can not lump in all terroristic attacks carried out by muslims as if they're all for the same reasons, and working towards the same goals or agendas.

When you put in mind the difference between situations, and such strong motives provided in the US's case, and the fact that most non-radical people are outraged by these very reasons. And the point which Sunstone makes about interrogators, and the fact that indeed people's views have changed lately about the US, including those who view it now in a horrible way, that makes it clear that this is the prime motive.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Badran,

yes it is undoubtedly better. But, only if achieved through the Iraqi people, or even with the help of the US but not though military invasion. Not through this way, if we assume that is the motive.

I personally do not believe that is the motive behind the war. I think you're not putting in mind a lot of things when considering this. And Iraq is indeed in much worse shape now. May be in the future it will change, like you said earlier it is a slow process. But the change which supposedly might come does not justify the civilians casualties and the multiple form of criminal acts perpetrated against the Iraqi people. Nothing justifies interfering in such manner.

Please don't tell me we went to Iraq for oil. Because if that is the case, I would like to see that oil and I believe opponents of the war would be showing supporters of the war that evidence on a continuous loop. But it just isn't there. Whatever reasons the US went to war (and there were many), getting oil was not one of them.

The process of helping Iraqis rebuild their country will be a long one and we will be there to help them. But why are you respecting the sovereignty of a dictator in Saddam? Why couldn't we invade Saddam, what kind of moral legitimacy did he have to rule over Iraq?

Good point, but i think we should put in mind the difference between the two situations. For example the lack of military defense for the countries being attacked plays a major factor in the desperation. Also, the fact that the US somehow resembles more of a bad guy than another middle eastern country. I hope you don't jump to conclusions on what i'm saying, my point is the US has the strongest army in the world, it is invading two middle eastern Arab, majority populated muslim countries and there is nobody fighting back. Its support to Israel which you very well know what it means. All plays major factors in giving motives to people to blow themselves up and resort to such measures. (note, i'm mainly not talking about leaders of terroristic groups).

This is why I believe the long term strategy will help American/Arab-Muslim relations. If we stay and help Iraq (and to a much less extent Afghanistan), the Muslims in the Arab world will see that we don't want to rule their countries, we want them to rule their own countries. And this is why the left in the US is so nefarious; they are working for the demise of this strategy because they are in lockstep with a lot of the terrorists’ beliefs about the US.

Here is why i think you do not know enough about Muslims. These things you're talking about are viewed as despicable, and its not how women are treated with the majority of muslims around the world, including other middle eastern countries. There are numbered places where these exotic and disgusting stuff goes on.

This is why the fight against these forms of Islam is so important. Saudi Arabia is exporting this Wahabbi form of Islam where women are treated terribly (and also believes in violent jihad). This must be fought and I am glad that we could be allies in fighting this evil.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Sunstone,

That was then, this is now. Apparently, motives can change.

LOL! Somebody is in denial. So, they were killing us before we started killing them. And now that we are killing them, they (unsurprisingly) are still trying to kill us. There looks to be a constant there: they want to kill us (even when we aren't killing them).

So, you agree that they have been trying to kill us long before we started to kill them?

 

[Revoltingest]

LOL! Somebody is in denial. So, they were killing us before we started killing them

We were misbehaving quite early on: carving what became Iraq, a coup in Iran, creation of Israel, & who knows what else.
They have reason to be angry, & it's time for us to stop being a target, since this is a war we cannot win without quashing
the hatred.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Revolt,

We were misbehaving quite early on: carving what became Iraq, a coup in Iran, creation of Israel, & who knows what else. They have reason to be angry, & it's time for us to stop being a target.

Except I don't recall any of those reasons being claimed as to why they were trying to kill us (except for Israel, but we are not abandoning them). When this violent jihad starts in the 80's the Muslim terrorists have allies in Iraq and Iran.

 

[Revoltingest]

Except I don't recall any of those reasons being claimed as to why they were trying to kill us (except for Israel, but we are not abandoning them). When this violent jihad starts in the 80's the Muslim terrorists have allies in Iraq and Iran.

I recall becoming aware of the tension there when Black September killed Israeli athletes
at the 1972 Summer Olympics in Munich. Israel was the hot issue. We cannot escape
the current carnage being a direct result of our actions in the Middle East.

 

[Sunstone]

LOL! Somebody is in denial.

I think that must be you, Joe. Even though you are a conservative, you need not deny that change can happen. Looks to me like their motives changed Joe.

So, they were killing us before we started killing them. And now that we are killing them, they (unsurprisingly) are still trying to kill us. There looks to be a constant there: they want to kill us (even when we aren't killing them).

Are you seriously suggesting there is some law of nature that requires the terrorist of 1982 to be motivated by the same thing that motivates the terrorist of 2003? Are you really going to suggest that?

So, you agree that they have been trying to kill us long before we started to kill them?

I do not assume that in every case it's been the very same people trying to kill us, and nor do I assume that just as many people are trying to kill us today as were trying to kill us in 1980. There appear to be more people trying to kill us today and largely for a different primary motive than were trying to kill us in 1980.

 

[kai]

There are lots of stated reasons why "Islamic terrorists" attack western countries but fundamentally the reason that they use violence is because they are ideologically and politically at odds and see violence as a means to an end. The same ideological and political goals that were extant in 1980 are still relevant today The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan would only reinforce those goals not add to them, what i mean is, there are no new goals that i have heard of, are there any new demands or goals say since the 1980s ?

the "International Islamic Front for the Jihad against Jews and Crusaders," kind of says it all

 

[sandandfoam]

There are lots of stated reasons why "Islamic terrorists" attack

I thought what the former head of MI5 said yesterday

The former head of MI5 delivered a devastating critique of the invasion of Iraq today, saying it substantially increased the threat of terrorist attacks in Britain and was a significant factor behind the radicalisation of young Muslims in the UK.

source Former MI5 chief delivers damning verdict on Iraq invasion | UK news | The Guardian

 

[Aquitaine]

I thought what the former head of MI5 said yesterday

source Former MI5 chief delivers damning verdict on Iraq invasion | UK news | The Guardian

To be fair though, most people who weren't blinded by "Patriotism" knew that ages ago. Hell, maybe this will finally ram into the heads of all the deniers who still think it was some sort of noble, Humanitarian invasion.

 

[Badran]

Please don't tell me we went to Iraq for oil. Because if that is the case, I would like to see that oil and I believe opponents of the war would be showing supporters of the war that evidence on a continuous loop. But it just isn't there. Whatever reasons the US went to war (and there were many), getting oil was not one of them.

I will not state for you what its for, as i have no evidence, but i can tell you what it isn't. Its sure not for a noble reason. May be, partially the US do have a real intention to really help, but it doesn't justify like i said before the destruction and shameful things that the Iraqis had endure. Also, if you look at what have been said before that war, and how ridiculously the trial of Saddam went, and how much damage the war have cost, i think you should be able to determine that there were bad reasons behind this war.

The process of helping Iraqis rebuild their country will be a long one and we will be there to help them. But why are you respecting the sovereignty of a dictator in Saddam? Why couldn't we invade Saddam, what kind of moral legitimacy did he have to rule over Iraq?

Not Saddam, i'm respecting the people and their rights. They do not deserve nor is the US entitled to put them through this. Iraqi people have their own right for certain things like anybody else, which have been and is being violated today. If the US wants to help other countries, and provide for them a healthy system which will help them live a decent life and prosper (which would be a noble goal), it should do so but without resorting to military operations.

This is why I believe the long term strategy will help American/Arab-Muslim relations. If we stay and help Iraq (and to a much less extent Afghanistan), the Muslims in the Arab world will see that we don't want to rule their countries, we want them to rule their own countries. And this is why the left in the US is so nefarious; they are working for the demise of this strategy because they are in lockstep with a lot of the terrorists’ beliefs about the US.

Like i said, while i'm sure your intentions are true, and you do want your country to help, and you believe it does, i think there is so much damage being done more than good, even for the US and its citizens. It will be really, and i do mean really hard to manage to take the anger and frustration from the Arab world towards the US, especially if it remains in Iraq.

This is why the fight against these forms of Islam is so important. Saudi Arabia is exporting this Wahabbi form of Islam where women are treated terribly (and also believes in violent jihad). This must be fought and I am glad that we could be allies in fighting this evil.

I'm all for fighting these sorts of things. I don't believe in fighting it through military though. Military or war in other words should be the very last unescapable resort. War is bad for everyone most of the time. Sometimes its the right thing to do, and it does do a lot of good in some cases, but usually that is not the case.

Ideas should be fought with ideas, or in other words we should fight these things that takes place in some countries with other measures.

 

[Badran]

same post was posted twice.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Sunstone,

Are you seriously suggesting there is some law of nature that requires the terrorist of 1982 to be motivated by the same thing that motivates the terrorist of 2003? Are you really going to suggest that?

Why is this so outlandish? Radical Muslim terrorist groups can't share similar motivations? This is impossible? On a side note, wait until I tell you about this religious group called Christians that seek to convert non-Christians because they believe they are correct and want everyone to go to heaven and they have been motivated by this belief for almost .... 2000 years. It's weird, it's like they are all motivated by the same thing, seriously.

If you believe that terrorists groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood don't share similar (and in many ways the same) political goals, then you might not be just playing dumb on this issue (you are totally clueless).

Step one is to remove the US from the region and annihilate Israel. Don't you notice that these groups have been pretty much dedicated to these goals for decades now? It's like (gasp!) they share the same motivations even thought they are different groups and the attacks occurred during a span of thirty or so years.

There appear to be more people trying to kill us today and largely for a different primary motive than were trying to kill us in 1980.

Well, duh, for the first time we are actually taking the fight to them. And as UBL has said, Iraq is the central front. They know if a democratic Iraq emerges from this war; their political goals are all but shattered. So, they don't want a democratic Iraq and you don't care too much about a democratic Iraq either. Thus, the unholy alliance between Muslim terrorists and the left.

 

[kai]

To be fair though, most people who weren't blinded by "Patriotism" knew that ages ago. Hell, maybe this will finally ram into the heads of all the deniers who still think it was some sort of noble, Humanitarian invasion.

Yes any action against Arab/Muslim countries or combatants, terrorists, criminals, organisations,any non Muslim troops even standing on "Muslim soil" etc etc increases the risk of terrorist attack. In order to avoid any increase in terrorist attack we must avoid anything that will upset any "Muslim" with terrorist inclinations.

 

[LuisDantas]

Not quite that much... but there is certainly potential for better relations with Muslims.

 

[kai]

but is there potential for better relations with Muslim terrorists?

Terrorism took a serious change in the 1980s long before Iraq and Afghanistan militant Islam replaced secular Palestinian nationalism as the ideology of terror,Jihad against apostates and infidels replaced the liberation of Palestine as the cause. Militant Islam was sworn to the destruction of the State of Israel, but now destruction of apostate Arab regimes and expulsion of Americans from Muslim lands became new strategic objectives of terror.
Militant Islam proclaimed the murder of Americans, who had rarely been targeted by Palestinian terrorists, to be a religious duty. and Terror became far more lethal with the advent of mass casualty suicide attacks . we face an entirely different ideology to that which we used to call the terrorism of the likes of the PLO.

 

[LuisDantas]

but is there potential for better relations with Muslim terrorists?

Sure, although I don´t know if it is a good idea to aim for that specifically.

Terrorism took a serious change in the 1980s long before Iraq and Afghanistan militant Islam replaced secular Palestinian nationalism as the ideology of terror,Jihad against apostates and infidels replaced the liberation of Palestine as the cause. Militant Islam was sworn to the destruction of the State of Israel, but now destruction of apostate Arab regimes and expulsion of Americans from Muslim lands became new strategic objectives of terror.
Militant Islam proclaimed the murder of Americans, who had rarely been targeted by Palestinian terrorists, to be a religious duty. and Terror became far more lethal with the advent of mass casualty suicide attacks . we face an entirely different ideology to that which we used to call the terrorism of the likes of the PLO.

Maybe we do. I still think the core motivations are mainly political, however.