"The Moral Collapse of the Republican Party"

[sun rise]

I know that the Clintons and Trumps are friends, still are. Everything else you said is false.

It's typical of the lying right wing propaganda to try to smear honorable people with lies, lies and more lies. It's now an industry. But as Sarumon, ring wraiths or orcs prepare to start demolishing the country, under the direction of Sauron people will get more and more tired of the evil lies. donny, that tiny handed mean little evil twit and his band of robbers, corrupters and destroyers reign will be short. The alt right bigots who want to turn America into a nazi hell are going to learn something about America.

 

[esmith]

No, I'm pointing out how independents and other voters were swayed by disinformation to vote a certain way.

What disinformation are you referring to?
Newest report says that the information provided by the hacking of Podesta's and the DNC emails was not altered. In other words what was reveled was correct.
Source
Hillary did have a private email server as Sec of State. To many this is not a problem but to others and those cognizant of procedures for handling classified or possible classified information it is a problem.
Hillary or her team destroyed emails. We do not know if any of these emails were related to her position as Sec of State
Hillary's server had material that was considered classified
There were questionable information on the "pay for play" actions of the Clinton's
Hillary did push for our involvement in Libya
The Clinton's have always been considered by many as conducting themselves in a manner that may have not broken the law but bent it.
The Obama said that the Hillary would be a continuation of his policies and ideas.


Now to many, enough to elect Trump as the 45th President of the United States, the above issues with the Hillary was enough. Now those that were and are opposed to President-elect Trump do not see those issues as problematic, that is understandable. However, you and others can not say that the majority of attacks against the Hillary was disinformation. Remember, those attacks that were released against President-elect Trump were pretty damaging to his character. However, those that voted for him disregarded them and preferred him or her.
Buck-up and live with it.

 

[metis]

Republicans, Hilda supporters, experts, intelligence community have all said this. Wikileaks is russian. Do you realize how much wikileaks was used this election season for propaganda/stories/spin and ammunition towards Hillary? RW media was there cheering the hacks the whole time too.
Now Trump gets caught hiring Russian/Ukranian campaign managers, apologizing for russia, saying look the other way. There's nothing to see there. heheheh

Isn't it interesting that Trump and so many of his supporters are far more apt to believe in Putin than in 17 of our own intelligence sources. And it doesn't even stand to common sense, namely that these different agencies that have had a record of competing and noncooperation with each other now are supposedly all in collaboration with lying and distorting that which affects our democratic process.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well to some the Hillary was a credible and responsible candidate but to those who put President-elect Trump into the White House she wasn't.

Which is a problem because she actually has been documented lying less often than many, many others on both sides. You can't call her a liar while being honest, consistent, and logical without acknowledging that we knew Trump lied frequently throughout his entire campaign, he did factually ridicule and mock the physically disabled and the mother of a slain soldier, and many other things that should have disqualified him based on basic human decency and dignity alone. Hillary gave us no real reason to assume her presidency would be much different than Bills, with the exception of a flop on LBGT issues and even trade issues thanks to Bernie.

 

[esmith]

Isn't it interesting that Trump and so many of his supporters are far more apt to believe in Putin than in 17 of our own intelligence sources. And it doesn't even stand to common sense, namely that these different agencies that have had a record of competing and noncooperation with each other now are supposedly all in collaboration with lying and distorting that which affects our democratic process.

I and many others think that President-elect Trump accepts the intelligence agency assessment that Russia played a major role in obtaining emails from the DNC and Podesta. However, I agree with President-elect Trump that those emails didn't play any significant role in the outcome of the election. Hillary had considerable baggage hanging over her and she failed to execute. Now many on here say that those that voted for Trump were mislead by negative attacks on the Hillary. I give Americans a lot more credit for making decisions on who they want for President. Some of those same people who voted for President-elect Trump were also responsible for electing the Obama as President in 2008 and 2012. Were they also too stupid at that time also?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I and many others think that President-elect Trump accepts the intelligence agency assessment that Russia played a major role in obtaining emails from the DNC and Podesta. However, I agree with President-elect Trump that those emails didn't play any significant role in the outcome of the election. Hillary had considerable baggage hanging over her and she failed to execute. Now many on here say that those that voted for Trump were mislead by negative attacks on the Hillary. I give Americans a lot more credit for making decisions on who they want for President. Some of those same people who voted for President-elect Trump were also responsible for electing the Obama as President in 2008 and 2012. Were they also too stupid at that time also?

You don't trust people that much since you disagree with a direct vote. But Hillary won the majority vote by the tune of three million. She lost by less than a percentage point in several key states that would have flipped the decision to her easily. The race was so disastrously close that I could hardly believe the results. Its like watching a tennis match where someone wins in strait sets 6-4,6-3 but every single game went to deuce 9+.
Also I doubt any significant portion of the people who voted for Trump voted for Obama the last few years. Truely negegable numbers most likely.

But I will agree that she did far more damage to herself when she cheated Bernie Sanders out of the primary than any Russian hacker ever could. Its not just that she had baggage she basically shat on half (arguably more than half) of the democratic party and majority of liberal leaning independents. She shafted a real candidate and then attempted to get everyone fired up by "its either me or Trump!" fear tactics.

What ended up happening is we had one of the smallest voter turnouts in decades. Left leaning independents and actually dedicated democrats chose simply not to vote this year because they couldn't bring themselves to vote for either candidate. Turmp did a simlar thing to his group as he recieved less votes than Romney did in 2012 but he didn't loose as many as Hillary. Despite this HIllary still won the popular vote but thanks to technicalities Trump did win.

I personally think that those voting for Trump did have a screw loose. Strong opinion I know but I can't square it intelectually in my head even after talking with people. Same for religion. I can't square religious belief with intellectual honesty. So I fall back on the opinion that it is intelectually dishonest to themselves. I Think people wanted to believe in Trump and his illusions so much that thats what they threw their bags into. I can even get that to a degree. A small tiny part of me wanted him to win and do something outrageous just to poke the sleeping bear a little in America. But I think people that voted for Hilllary Clinton in the democratic primary were even worse. I cannot intelectually square that one either and I can't even empathize with any kind of "feeling" or "belief" that they could have had for Hillary.

So this was long winded and a bit off topic. But to conclude I don't understand how anyone could have voted for trump with thought. I can understand how clouded belief gets them to. I get that. I don't even get that much with Hillary. And there are a lot of people like me. Enough to throw this election into South Park episode level absurdity.

 

[esmith]

So this was long winded and a bit off topic. But to conclude I don't understand how anyone could have voted for trump with thought. I can understand how clouded belief gets them to. I get that. I don't even get that much with Hillary. And there are a lot of people like me. Enough to throw this election into South Park episode level absurdity.

Well let's take my wife and myself. We saw three choices Hillary, Trump, or someone else. Now we definitely despised Hillary and everything she was and stood for. Now President-elect Trump. We both had issues with some things and agreed with him on others. Therefore we had 3 choices
Choice 1 Not vote for Trump which would be a vote for Hillary (however in my state Hillary didn't have a snowflakes chance in hell of winning)
Choice 2 Vote for another person which would be a vote for Hillary (same results reason as choice 1)
Choice 3 Vote for Trump
Easy decision.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Well let's take my wife and myself. We saw three choices Hillary, Trump, or someone else. Now we definitely despised Hillary and everything she was and stood for. Now President-elect Trump. We both had issues with some things and agreed with him on others. Therefore we had 3 choices
Choice 1 Not vote for Trump which would be a vote for Hillary (however in my state Hillary didn't have a snowflakes chance in hell of winning)
Choice 2 Vote for another person which would be a vote for Hillary (same results reason as choice 1)
Choice 3 Vote for Trump
Easy decision.

This is something that is repeated endlessly though it hasn't a shred of truth. No vote is a default vote. A vote for anyone is a vote exactly for that person. If you voted for batman it would not be a vote for Hillary it would be a vote for batman. So one and two are irrelevant. You simply chose out of the two to vote for Trump.

 

[esmith]

This is something that is repeated endlessly though it hasn't a shred of truth. No vote is a default vote. A vote for anyone is a vote exactly for that person. If you voted for batman it would not be a vote for Hillary it would be a vote for batman. So one and two are irrelevant. You simply chose out of the two to vote for Trump.

Have to disagree with you. It is possible and did happen in the 2016 election. Hillary lost in some states by a small number. This could be contributed to a couple of reasons
1. More Trump voters turned out than Hillary supporters
2. Those that would normally vote for the Dem's primary voter couldn't bring themselves to do so and either didn't vote or voted for someone else. Therefore in essence the now President-elect took the Electoral votes of that state.

Your entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. We just see things in a different venue.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Have to disagree with you. It is possible and did happen in the 2016 election. Hillary lost in some states by a small number. This could be contributed to a couple of reasons

Most swing states were in small number

1. More Trump voters turned out than Hillary supporters

Nationally this simply isn't true. In those specific states yes.

2. Those that would normally vote for the Dem's primary voter couldn't bring themselves to do so and either didn't vote or voted for someone else. Therefore in essence the now President-elect took the Electoral votes of that state.

Exactly what I said. The reason for why I said that is because Trump did horribly this election. HIllary simply did worse. This was a near record low for voter turnout.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's typical of the lying right wing propaganda to try to smear honorable people with lies, lies and more lies. It's now an industry. But as Sarumon, ring wraiths or orcs prepare to start demolishing the country, under the direction of Sauron people will get more and more tired of the evil lies. donny, that tiny handed mean little evil twit and his band of robbers, corrupters and destroyers reign will be short. The alt right bigots who want to turn America into a nazi hell are going to learn something about America.

I think that your holding back like this is coy to the point of cowardliness.
Come on....stop sugar coating it....tell us what you really think!

 

[esmith]

Most swing states were in small number
Nationally this simply isn't true. In those specific states yes.
Exactly what I said. The reason for why I said that is because Trump did horribly this election. HIllary simply did worse. This was a near record low for voter turnout.

so you are agreeing that in some states if you did not vote, or vote for someone besides the Hillary that it gave the victory to the President-elect. glad to see you finally agree

 

[Monk Of Reason]

so you are agreeing that in some states if you did not vote, or vote for someone besides the Hillary that it gave the victory to the President-elect. glad to see you finally agree

Nope. Because they are not a default vote. If you think people are a default vote then you are wrong.

Lets take me and you for exapmle. Lets say we both didn't vote for either candidate. Lets say we didn't vote at all. We are in the same state. You say my lack of a vote is a vote for Trump. And your lack of a vote is a vote for Hillary? I don't buy that. Your vote isn't automatically for anyone.

 

[esmith]

Nope. Because they are not a default vote. If you think people are a default vote then you are wrong.

Lets take me and you for example. Lets say we both didn't vote for either candidate. Lets say we didn't vote at all. We are in the same state. You say my lack of a vote is a vote for Trump. And your lack of a vote is a vote for Hillary? I don't buy that. Your vote isn't automatically for anyone.

Let's look at it this way but in simplistic terms.
State X has 4 electoral votes winner take all
Candidate H receives 600 votes
Candidate T receives 603 votes
Candidate Z receives 4 votes
Candidate T takes all electoral votes

Now let's assume voters A, B, C, and D normally voted candidate H's party but doesn't like candidate H and despises candidate T so they cast their vote for candidate Z. Has not their vote in reality been a vote for candidate T

Another scenario
State X has 4 electoral votes winner take all
Candidate H receives 602 votes
Candidate T receives 601 votes
Candidate H takes all electoral votes
Voters A & B normally vote for candidate T's party but don't care for the candidate and despises candidate H so they do not cast a vote for either candidate. By not voting they have given candidate H the win. Which in actuality by not voting for either candidate they have in effect voted for candidate H.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Let's look at it this way but in simplistic terms.
State X has 4 electoral votes winner take all
Candidate H receives 600 votes
Candidate T receives 603 votes
Candidate Z receives 4 votes
Candidate T takes all electoral votes

Now let's assume voters A, B, C, and D normally voted candidate H's party but doesn't like candidate H and despises candidate T so they cast their vote for candidate Z. Has not their vote in reality been a vote for candidate T

Another scenario
State X has 4 electoral votes winner take all
Candidate H receives 602 votes
Candidate T receives 601 votes
Candidate H takes all electoral votes
Voters A & B normally vote for candidate T's party but don't care for the candidate and despises candidate H so they do not cast a vote for either candidate. By not voting they have given candidate H the win. Which in actuality by not voting for either candidate they have in effect voted for candidate H.

This assumes instant runoff style voting. Hillary never had my vote. Democrats never had my vote. I just so happened to have voted for a democrat prior.

I understand the logistics and the resons why they want to classify people that way but that simply isn't so. A person's vote is pre-determined. If you want to add instant runoff voting then I would have put HIllary in the number 2 slot perhaps. Or maybe I would have voted third and put no one second. I really couldn't bring myself to vote for HIllary.

 

[esmith]

This assumes instant runoff style voting. Hillary never had my vote. Democrats never had my vote. I just so happened to have voted for a democrat prior.

I understand the logistics and the resons why they want to classify people that way but that simply isn't so. A person's vote is pre-determined. If you want to add instant runoff voting then I would have put HIllary in the number 2 slot perhaps. Or maybe I would have voted third and put no one second. I really couldn't bring myself to vote for HIllary.

Was not specifying you, it is a generalization of the voting public.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Was not specifying you, it is a generalization of the voting public.

And no one is an automatic vote for someone. Didn't have to be me specifically. Even you were not an automatic vote for Trump.

 

[esmith]

And no one is an automatic vote for someone. Didn't have to be me specifically. Even you were not an automatic vote for Trump.

guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I shant. You may.

 

[habiru]