"The Mosque at Ground Zero"

[Smoke]

So I just got an ad on Facebook:

and I found it so offensive that I almost unfriended the person who liked it. I started thinking about exactly what it is that's so offensive about it.

It's not the Osama bin Laden imagery. That's typical of this kind of thing, and frankly I think it's kind of funny when the Know-Nothings (I just can't call them "conservatives" anymore, not without the quotes) use Osama to stir people up. Every time they tell us the bogey man's gonna get us, they remind us that they didn't get him -- didn't even really try to get him; they were too busy hunting down Saddam Hussein. Osama imagery, intentionally or not, is a constant reminder of just how ineffective the scattershot alarmism of the Know Nothings is at actually protecting anything or anybody.

It's not the invocation of St. Ray-Gun, either. He's the perfect symbol of the Know-Nothing movement. Ronald Reagan -- pretend cowboy, demented narcoleptic, Star Wars fantasist, and as far as I know the only President who ever defended the illegal acts of his administration by claiming (fairly credibly) not to know what his foreign policy was or what his administration was doing -- is the perfect symbol for the Know-Nothing movement.

No, what's offensive is the phrase "Mosque at Ground Zero," and I think the reason it's so offensive is that it demonstrates that these clowns don't even believe their own rhetoric. Because of course nobody's talking about building a mosque at Ground Zero -- or even next to Ground Zero, or across the street from Ground Zero. "Mosque at Ground Zero" is a lie. It is, furthermore, an admission that these people recognize how ridiculous it would be to say what they really mean. "No mosques anywhere!" is too obviously unconstitutional. "No mosques in the Financial District!" is too obviously silly.

This is what it means to be a "conservative" in America today: You're actually willing to get yourself all worked up over **** that's not only made up, but is obviously made up. To be a "conservative" in America today is to admit to being dishonest, insane, or both.

 

[Alceste]

I agree with you. I haven't got much to add, I just thought your post looked lonesome. Let me just say that from this side of the fishbowl that is American politics, it seems the Republicans are desperate. Really, they have nothing left but race-baiting? Honestly? Bush II, ridiculous as he was, put on a better show of competence and charisma, and even he couldn't manage to win an election without a lot of help from his friends in the Supreme Court and the electronic voting machine industry. I think they're finished.

 

[Copernicus]

I agree with you. I haven't got much to add, I just thought your post looked lonesome. Let me just say that from this side of the fishbowl that is American politics, it seems the Republicans are desperate. Really, they have nothing left but race-baiting? Honestly? Bush II, ridiculous as he was, put on a better show of competence and charisma, and even he couldn't manage to win an election without a lot of help from his friends in the Supreme Court and the electronic voting machine industry. I think they're finished.

I wish that I could agree with you, but prejudice and bigotry have never ceased to afflict human society, even as we find ourselves capable, for the first time in history, of electing an African American president. The "Mosque at Ground Zero" hysteria is just another opportunity for it to manifest itself in a way that is still considered fashionable by the mainstream. And this nonsense is not only going on in New York City. It is spreading across the country. Republicans are seizing on it, because it is an election year, and they perceive the Democrats to be on the socially unapproved side of this wedge issue. And, although I hate to say it, I think they are right. Americans are responding to this nonsense in enough numbers to make even President Obama back off of his initially sane, rational position that there is no legal or moral basis for anyone to take such a position. Indeed, there already is a mosque within a few blocks of Ground Zero. It has been there for many years. And for a moment there we almost had a political leader brave enough to lead us away from the brink of fear and hatred. I wish that the guy I thought I voted for had become president.

 

[Willamena]

What is "Ground Zero"?

 

[Azakel]

What is "Ground Zero"?

It's were the World Trade Tower where.

 

[Sunstone]

FDR would have run circles around today's "conservatives". Why can't Obama?

 

[doppelganger]

FDR would have run circles around today's "conservatives". Why can't Obama?

Because he's an opportunist with no real message. All form and no substance.

 

[Alceste]

I wish that I could agree with you, but prejudice and bigotry have never ceased to afflict human society, even as we find ourselves capable, for the first time in history, of electing an African American president. The "Mosque at Ground Zero" hysteria is just another opportunity for it to manifest itself in a way that is still considered fashionable by the mainstream. And this nonsense is not only going on in New York City. It is spreading across the country. Republicans are seizing on it, because it is an election year, and they perceive the Democrats to be on the socially unapproved side of this wedge issue. And, although I hate to say it, I think they are right. Americans are responding to this nonsense in enough numbers to make even President Obama back off of his initially sane, rational position that there is no legal or moral basis for anyone to take such a position. Indeed, there already is a mosque within a few blocks of Ground Zero. It has been there for many years. And for a moment there we almost had a political leader brave enough to lead us away from the brink of fear and hatred. I wish that the guy I thought I voted for had become president.

I don't know - I think a movement based on nothing but racist rhetoric is more likely to repel voters than attract it. The best they will be able to do is gather all the existing racists together in one spot (or series of spots) for frightening angry mob shots that the news will dutifully report as a major change in voter attitude across the country.

Keep in mind that the Republican-tea-party's only other platform plank - anti-government rhetoric - is embraced by many people who reject racism, including many fair-minded folks who despise Bush as much as Obama. The question is whether their vague antipathy for government is stronger than their aversion to the ugliness of racism. I don't believe it is in most cases.

On the other hand, it's going to be an unpleasant ride while those who were already bigots realize it's now socially acceptable to spout off about it in public.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I don't really care one way or another what it is and whether they build it or not. I hope whatever they do, they do it soon though, in hopes that people stop making threads about it on RF.

 

[Copernicus]

I don't really care one way or another what it is and whether they build it or not. I hope whatever they do, they do it soon though, in hopes that people stop making threads about it on RF.

Why, Kilgore? Are you being compelled to read every thread that is posted on RF? It seems to me that there will always be threads here that some find fascinating and others find a waste of time.

Alceste, I think that we pretty much agree on this issue, although I seem to be a bit more pessimistic about the public. Racism is not just about rhetoric. It is a way of judging people. There are fashionable ways to be bigoted--anti-Muslim in this case--and there are unfashionable ways.

The question I would have of anyone is why an American who takes the First Amendment seriously would oppose Muslims building a Mosque there. After all, isn't that really a way of sticking our thumb in the eye of Muslim radicals? If we are strong enough to overcome religious prejudice, then we are thinking and behaving differently from the way they do.

 

[MoonWater]

I wish that I could agree with you, but prejudice and bigotry have never ceased to afflict human society, even as we find ourselves capable, for the first time in history, of electing an African American president. The "Mosque at Ground Zero" hysteria is just another opportunity for it to manifest itself in a way that is still considered fashionable by the mainstream. And this nonsense is not only going on in New York City. It is spreading across the country. Republicans are seizing on it, because it is an election year, and they perceive the Democrats to be on the socially unapproved side of this wedge issue. And, although I hate to say it, I think they are right. Americans are responding to this nonsense in enough numbers to make even President Obama back off of his initially sane, rational position that there is no legal or moral basis for anyone to take such a position. Indeed, there already is a mosque within a few blocks of Ground Zero. It has been there for many years. And for a moment there we almost had a political leader brave enough to lead us away from the brink of fear and hatred. I wish that the guy I thought I voted for had become president.

how is Obama backing off his original position?

 

[Alceste]

Why, Kilgore? Are you being compelled to read every thread that is posted on RF? It seems to me that there will always be threads here that some find fascinating and others find a waste of time.

Alceste, I think that we pretty much agree on this issue, although I seem to be a bit more pessimistic about the public. Racism is not just about rhetoric. It is a way of judging people. There are fashionable ways to be bigoted--anti-Muslim in this case--and there are unfashionable ways.

The question I would have of anyone is why an American who takes the First Amendment seriously would oppose Muslims building a Mosque there. After all, isn't that really a way of sticking our thumb in the eye of Muslim radicals? If we are strong enough to overcome religious prejudice, then we are thinking and behaving differently from the way they do.

I don't know - you're in the states. I suppose you would know better than I. I operate under the assumption the mainstream news networks are exaggerating the numbers and influence of the racists in the US because it makes a good (i.e. sellable) narrative. So far their stories about sweeping "anti-incumbent" sentiment have fallen flat as newcomers failed to make significant inroads in the primaries. The stories about sweeping anti-Islamic sentiment have now taken over and I suspect they are also more noise than substance.

You have to hand it to the Republican-tea-party though - they sure know how to grab headlines. If they are also grabbing the hearts and minds of voters as well you're in deep ****.

 

[Autodidact]

So I just got an ad on Facebook:

and I found it so offensive that I almost unfriended the person who liked it. I started thinking about exactly what it is that's so offensive about it.

It's not the Osama bin Laden imagery. That's typical of this kind of thing, and frankly I think it's kind of funny when the Know-Nothings (I just can't call them "conservatives" anymore, not without the quotes) use Osama to stir people up. Every time they tell us the bogey man's gonna get us, they remind us that they didn't get him -- didn't even really try to get him; they were too busy hunting down Saddam Hussein. Osama imagery, intentionally or not, is a constant reminder of just how ineffective the scattershot alarmism of the Know Nothings is at actually protecting anything or anybody.

It's not the invocation of St. Ray-Gun, either. He's the perfect symbol of the Know-Nothing movement. Ronald Reagan -- pretend cowboy, demented narcoleptic, Star Wars fantasist, and as far as I know the only President who ever defended the illegal acts of his administration by claiming (fairly credibly) not to know what his foreign policy was or what his administration was doing -- is the perfect symbol for the Know-Nothing movement.

No, what's offensive is the phrase "Mosque at Ground Zero," and I think the reason it's so offensive is that it demonstrates that these clowns don't even believe their own rhetoric. Because of course nobody's talking about building a mosque at Ground Zero -- or even next to Ground Zero, or across the street from Ground Zero. "Mosque at Ground Zero" is a lie. It is, furthermore, an admission that these people recognize how ridiculous it would be to say what they really mean. "No mosques anywhere!" is too obviously unconstitutional. "No mosques in the Financial District!" is too obviously silly.

This is what it means to be a "conservative" in America today: You're actually willing to get yourself all worked up over **** that's not only made up, but is obviously made up. To be a "conservative" in America today is to admit to being dishonest, insane, or both.

Ignorance plus hypocrisy. These are people who claim to be in favor of private property and limited government, and whose central tenet is that the government shouldn't be able to tell me what I can do with my property, and who are trying to get the government to tell these people what they can do with their property. These are people who claim to favor freedom of religion--except when it's not their religion.

They make me sick.

 

[Alceste]

how is Obama backing off his original position?

CNN: Obama ‘not commenting on wisdom’ of controversial Islamic center | MuslimMatters.org

 

[MoonWater]

CNN: Obama ‘not commenting on wisdom’ of controversial Islamic center | MuslimMatters.org

“Just to be clear, the President is not backing off in any way from the comments he made last night,” White House spokesman Bill Burton said in a statement Saturday afternoon.
“It is not his role as President to pass judgment on every local project. But it is his responsibility to stand up for the Constitutional principle of religious freedom and equal treatment for all Americans,” Burton added.

Obama... “was not commenting and I will not comment on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there,” referring to the area near ground zero.
“I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding,” the president added. “In this country, we treat everybody equally and in accordance with the law, regardless of race, regardless of religion.”

I'm still not seeing how this is "backing off" of his original position. He said in his speech that the muslims have every right to build there and he's just reiterating that same comment. He's simply refusing to judge whether or not it is wise for muslims to build there as it is not his place to make such a judgement. So how is that "backing off" or how this means the president is not " brave enough to lead us away from the brink of fear and hatred"?

 

[Alceste]

I'm still not seeing how this is "backing off" of his original position. He said in his speech that the muslims have every right to build there and he's just reiterating that same comment. He's simply refusing to judge whether or not it is wise for muslims to build there as it is not his place to make such a judgement. So how is that "backing off" or how this means the president is not " brave enough to lead us away from the brink of fear and hatred"?

It's perceived as a backing off because his original statement was a nice, clear affirmation of the freedom of religion. His second statement was a wishy washy compromise in which the first, clear statement was affirmed but the concept of the "wisdom", or the lack thereof, of freely practicing religion was pointlessly introduced to muddy the issue, all to appease the likes of Glenn Beck.

Edit: as John Stewart put it, "YES WE CAN! BUT SHOULD WE?"

 

[Revoltingest]

So I just got an ad on Facebook:

and I found it so offensive that I almost unfriended the person who liked it. I started thinking about exactly what it is that's so offensive about it.

It's not the Osama bin Laden imagery. That's typical of this kind of thing, and frankly I think it's kind of funny when the Know-Nothings (I just can't call them "conservatives" anymore, not without the quotes) use Osama to stir people up. Every time they tell us the bogey man's gonna get us, they remind us that they didn't get him -- didn't even really try to get him; they were too busy hunting down Saddam Hussein. Osama imagery, intentionally or not, is a constant reminder of just how ineffective the scattershot alarmism of the Know Nothings is at actually protecting anything or anybody.

It's not the invocation of St. Ray-Gun, either. He's the perfect symbol of the Know-Nothing movement. Ronald Reagan -- pretend cowboy, demented narcoleptic, Star Wars fantasist.......

Geez Louiezz, Smoke. Look at that last paragraph above....it sounds every bit as crazy & antagonistic as the anti-mosque ad.
If you lefties & righties can't figure out a way to be civil, sane, calm & reasonable to each other, then I might just have to start
spanking you guys. Now, next time you start frothing & foaming, just drop those drawers. I'll be there shortly.
(Btw, I expect to dispense a whole lotta discipline...anyone else want to join in with a hickory switch?)

 

[Smoke]

Geez Louiezz, Smoke. Look at that last paragraph above....it sounds every bit as crazy & antagonistic as the anti-mosque ad.

It's an accurate description of Reagan. And it was meant to be antagonistic. These people disgust me.

Or did you mean my comments on pseudo-conservatives? Either way. I have no interest in being civil to such people.

 

[Panda]

So I just got an ad on Facebook:

and I found it so offensive that I almost unfriended the person who liked it. I started thinking about exactly what it is that's so offensive about it.

It's not the Osama bin Laden imagery. That's typical of this kind of thing, and frankly I think it's kind of funny when the Know-Nothings (I just can't call them "conservatives" anymore, not without the quotes) use Osama to stir people up. Every time they tell us the bogey man's gonna get us, they remind us that they didn't get him -- didn't even really try to get him; they were too busy hunting down Saddam Hussein. Osama imagery, intentionally or not, is a constant reminder of just how ineffective the scattershot alarmism of the Know Nothings is at actually protecting anything or anybody.

It's not the invocation of St. Ray-Gun, either. He's the perfect symbol of the Know-Nothing movement. Ronald Reagan -- pretend cowboy, demented narcoleptic, Star Wars fantasist, and as far as I know the only President who ever defended the illegal acts of his administration by claiming (fairly credibly) not to know what his foreign policy was or what his administration was doing -- is the perfect symbol for the Know-Nothing movement.

No, what's offensive is the phrase "Mosque at Ground Zero," and I think the reason it's so offensive is that it demonstrates that these clowns don't even believe their own rhetoric. Because of course nobody's talking about building a mosque at Ground Zero -- or even next to Ground Zero, or across the street from Ground Zero. "Mosque at Ground Zero" is a lie. It is, furthermore, an admission that these people recognize how ridiculous it would be to say what they really mean. "No mosques anywhere!" is too obviously unconstitutional. "No mosques in the Financial District!" is too obviously silly.

This is what it means to be a "conservative" in America today: You're actually willing to get yourself all worked up over **** that's not only made up, but is obviously made up. To be a "conservative" in America today is to admit to being dishonest, insane, or both.

I like the bit where they try to make it look like Reagan's opinion is actually worth something. I always though the USA viewed Reagan like we view Thatcher, as in hate them to quote Frankie Boyle on Thatcher ".... you could buy everybody in Scotland a shovel, and we'd dig a hole so deep we'd hand her over to Satan personally". Do Americans still like Reagan?

 

[Smoke]

Do Americans still like Reagan?

Many of the stupid ones do.