"The Mosque at Ground Zero"

[Rakhel]

last I checked, they scrapped this plan in favor of two reflecting pools at ground level and some kind of underground museum thing. Apparently the big glass atrium spire thing was structurally unsound, and the second plan was too close to the road and vulnerable to the simplest of terrorist attacks.

|| World Trade Center ||

The new World Trade Center (WTC) will build a brighter, more vibrant future for downtown New York with superior commercial space, a modernized and more convenient transportation system, and cultural and highly commemorative destinations. It will provide a significant economic boost for the area and dramatically enhance the quality of life for the people who live, work, and visit downtown.
The WTC plan includes
Five new skyscrapers (1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 WTC)
National September 11 Memorial & Museum at the World Trade Center
World Trade Center Transportation Hub
Retail Complex
Performing Arts Center


(the site won't let me copy the images of what they hope WTC will look like when they get done. IF they ever get done)

 

[Willamena]

Ground Zero

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia...

Oh, I know what "ground zero" means. I just didn't know what "Ground Zero" means.

 

[YmirGF]

I think that the memorial should be the smoking rubble. Never cover it over and never build on it. Lest ye forget.

 

[Gunfingers]

I would prefer no memorial. Clear out the rubble, pave over the lot, and just lease out another office building. Why dwell on something like this?

 

[Copernicus]

We don't know the circumstances that brought up his statement...

Considering the firestorm of criticism from his base after that comment, and no attempt on his part to further "clarify" his comment, it is reasonable to conclude that he was deliberately trying to hedge his earlier comment.

We also don't know what his mindset was in making such a statement. Did he have a mindset of apprehension and wanting to back off or simply wanting to clarify his point? What were his actual intentions with this statement? We just don't know. Sure maybe he was being wishy washy, but he may also not have meant it that way. We just don't know.

If the past is any indication, he does not operate in a vacuum. What he said was calculated, and it undermined those who were prepared to champion his earlier remarks. It is true that we cannot know his thoughts, but he can know what they say about him on TV. Choosing not to clarify is itself a clarification of his position. He is trying to have it both ways.

As for your perceived contradiction my last comment was not about Obama's quote specifically but how I took what he said and the intent behind the words. Yes I can see how what Obama said could be construed as him being wishy washy, however I fail to see how it is wishy washy if his intent was to support the muslim right to build there while not passing judgement on how wise or ethical it is to do so; and that is how I took what he said. And I still stand by what I said earlier, it is not his place to pass such judgement.

It is interesting that he said he would not comment on the wisdom of building there, but by that very comment he did just that. I don't think that you perceive an irony there, but I do. And, while you admonish me not to jump to conclusions about his intent, you do just that in the above statement. It is just that you jump to a different conclusion than I do.

Actually there is reason. With 70% of americans being against the building of a mosque there you can bet that many of them will try to take matters into their own hands and make life very difficult for those trying to build the mosque and attend it once finished. I wouldn't be surprised if the place wound up being bombed sky high before completion. That isn't to say questioning the wisdom of building it should lead them to move it to a new location, as yes that would be giving in to hate and fear mongering. However questioning it can help make those working on it more aware of the social and political effects the mosque will have as well as the possible backlash and as such make them better prepared to deal with it.

First of all, the standard line now from all of the federal politicians is that this mosque is not a federal issue, but a local one. At the same time, they can't stop talking about it in terms of its national significance. Any attempt by a local government to interfere with the construction of that mosque would be a blatant violation of the First Amendment. If 70% of Americans believe that the Constitution is wrong, or they plain just don't understand it, then it is the duty of the president and other officials to explain it to them. Public opinion can be swayed, as any right wing gasbag knows. We did not elect Obama to base his policies on the latest polls and to dance to the drumbeat of Fox News. The man showed his mettle when his administration fired Shirley Jerrod. He closed that barn door after the horses had escaped and promised to change the administration's attitude. Their attitude has not changed.

 

[MoonWater]

Considering the firestorm of criticism from his base after that comment, and no attempt on his part to further "clarify" his comment, it is reasonable to conclude that he was deliberately trying to hedge his earlier comment.

If the past is any indication, he does not operate in a vacuum. What he said was calculated, and it undermined those who were prepared to champion his earlier remarks. It is true that we cannot know his thoughts, but he can know what they say about him on TV. Choosing not to clarify is itself a clarification of his position. He is trying to have it both ways.

It is interesting that he said he would not comment on the wisdom of building there, but by that very comment he did just that. I don't think that you perceive an irony there, but I do. And, while you admonish me not to jump to conclusions about his intent, you do just that in the above statement. It is just that you jump to a different conclusion than I do.

I am no way admonishing you and I'm sorry if you feel that I have. I'm merely arguing my own perspective while trying to understand yours.

First of all, the standard line now from all of the federal politicians is that this mosque is not a federal issue, but a local one. At the same time, they can't stop talking about it in terms of its national significance. Any attempt by a local government to interfere with the construction of that mosque would be a blatant violation of the First Amendment. If 70% of Americans believe that the Constitution is wrong, or they plain just don't understand it, then it is the duty of the president and other officials to explain it to them. Public opinion can be swayed, as any right wing gasbag knows. We did not elect Obama to base his policies on the latest polls and to dance to the drumbeat of Fox News. The man showed his mettle when his administration fired Shirley Jerrod. He closed that barn door after the horses had escaped and promised to change the administration's attitude. Their attitude has not changed.

Except the president has said just that, the muslims have every right to build there and he has stated that he will stand by that right and protect it if necessary, no more no less.


I feel like I'm talking in circles here. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Alceste]

I would prefer no memorial. Clear out the rubble, pave over the lot, and just lease out another office building. Why dwell on something like this?

Because it helps the plutocrats who run the US recruit American teenagers to kill and die to enrich American corporations.

 

[Autodidact]

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

[youtube]QZpT2Muxoo0[/youtube]
Thank you, Keith Olbermann.

 

[Majikthise]

It's an accurate description of Reagan. And it was meant to be antagonistic. These people disgust me.

Or did you mean my comments on pseudo-conservatives? Either way. I have no interest in being civil to such people.

You claim to be so tolerant yet you would ignore civility in dealing with people who don't fit in with your ideals.

 

[Majikthise]

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

[youtube]QZpT2Muxoo0[/youtube]
Thank you, Keith Olbermann.

And what if "THEY" are islam? People who chuck up this verse all the time never consider that.

 

[Copernicus]

I am no way admonishing you and I'm sorry if you feel that I have. I'm merely arguing my own perspective while trying to understand yours.

Fair enough. I appreciate the comments, even if we do take a different perspective on the president's behavior.

Except the president has said just that, the muslims have every right to build there and he has stated that he will stand by that right and protect it if necessary, no more no less.

He was right to say that, and it was necessary for him to say that. His comments on the "wisdom" of building there were both unnecessary and unwise, as they sent a mixed signal.

It is good to see that there are still some conservatives out there with the decency and courage to speak out on this issue. Ted Olson is the latest to weigh in on the point that this is a Constitutional issue. It is a chance to show the rest of the world what we stand for.

 

[Majikthise]

Seriously, take a look at what has happened to the middle class and how wealth had been redistributed upwards under the myth of "trickle down." Look at the stats. It's undeniable that the middle class is disappearing. Or don't, and just stick your head in the sand and be a slave to ideology and party. That's your prerogative, of course.

The most ridiculous thing is the "conservative" preoccupation with "family values" at the same time they are destroying the ability of a family to support itself with a single income or to build for its future. Yes, modern "conservatives" are idiots - IF - they also happen to work for their income.

The welfare state and it's subsequent entitlement mentality have ruined it for the middle class. The rich who spend ridculous amounts of money at my JOB for me to service thier yachts keep the economy going. And a lot of them are democrats.Very rich democrats.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's an accurate description of Reagan.

Some people think it's accurate to describe Obama as a Muslim planning to destroy America & enslave us.
Your description of Reagan reminds me of that. We should all strive to know the difference between
entertaining hyperbole & accurate description.

 

[Sunstone]

Maybe instead of a community center at 51 Park, we should build a Gitmo style prison. It seems that's more in line with what this country is becoming than a country of free men and women.

 

[Majikthise]

Maybe instead of a community center at 51 Park, we should build a Gitmo style prison. It seems that's more in line with what this country is becoming than a country of free men and women.

How about a soccer stadium where they can stage stonings and beheadings.

 

[Majikthise]

Some people think it's accurate to describe Obama as a Muslim planning to destroy America & enslave us.
We should all strive to know the difference between entertaining hyperbole & accurate description.

I have to spread my frubals.

 

[Sunstone]

How about a soccer stadium where they can stage stonings and beheadings.

If we could honestly build a soccer stadium where we could stage stonings and beheadings without thereby dancing to our enemy's music, I would be all for it. I'm not saying we could actually do that. I'm saying I'm sick of doing what Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban want us to do. I'm sick and disgusted that our nation is merely reacting to its enemies, and not ruling them. In opposing 51 Park, we are doing exactly what Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban want us to do. We are our own worse enemies.

 

[Autodidact]

Majik:

So are you suggesting that Muslims should not be entitled to constitutionally protected freedom to practice their religion?

 

[Majikthise]

They are twisting our own laws to use them against us as usual. Why can't we use common sense once in a while instead of bending to every cretin with an agenda and the knowledge to abuse the system? These people (radical muslims ) are, in the end , very simple minded. Denying them this triumph, and they would definitely consider it one, will drive them bonkers and force thier hand. Truely moderate muslims should understand that and not freak out that thier rights are being violated. And, I'm still not ready to count this country out or crap on it to be accepted into the so called main stream.

 

[Majikthise]

Majik:

So are you suggesting that Muslims should not be entitled to constitutionally protected freedom to practice their religion?

Of course not dweeb.