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The Most Basic Question...

Brian2

Brian2

Veteran Member
viole said:
Look, it is very simple. If you are unable to disable all defeaters of the first cause argument, then you cannot assert it. It is just normal logic. That is the whole point. I am not asserting B theory is necessarily true, or that there is definitely no first cause. I am just showing that it entirely possible that these defeaters are true. And that therefore, the claim “there has to be a first cause” fails. You should actually demote it (or promote it, if you see faith to be better than evidence) to “I believe there is a first cause”. Which is much easier to defend.

and yes, if you declare that there are physical reasons for a first cause, as you did, then knowing physics, especially modern physics, would help to get ready to defend against the unavoidable counter attack. Otherwise you will always be doomed to go to gun fights with a knife. for, it would be like me saying that there are good reasons why medieval chinese theatre played, say, with purple costumes, when it takes two seconds to realize i have no clue of medieval chinese theatre. and that I have been, therefore, intellectually sloppy.

ciao

- viole
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Next time I want to go to a gun fight I'll remember that, and I won't ask you about medieval Chinese theatre.
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
YoursTrue said:
Allow me to mention what the Bible (both the OT and NT) says. First of all, and I'm going to keep this brief, the OT speaks of a deliverer, or messiah, which means anointed one. It also speaks about the fall of Adam and Eve into sin. They were the first two humans created. Now I know there are many differences in religion as to what, why, when and how this happened, or IF this happened, but I'm not here to discuss that in detail now. I will, however, mention that there were prophecies leading people to think there would be a deliverer (from the situation people found themselves in). That's the OT and the NT speaks of a particular occurrence which is the birth of a man named Jesus which some believed was the Messiah.
I realize that some believe Jesus was a "good guy" but not the son of God born of a virgin. When I was an atheist, I used to think Jesus was a "good guy," but couldn't put it all together. The point is that (1) there are different ways some believe Jesus is to be thought of, and (2) not all religions basing some form of belief in Jesus agree as to who he was (is), and (3) sacrifice for sin was being offered in the history as recorded in the Old Testament. If you were to ask anyone who claims to have a form of religion who or what do they think God is, you might get some interesting answers.
In other words, it makes me (not everyone, obviously) wonder how a person adheres to a religion that professes some belief in Jesus but then says he was a good man, that he misunderstood the scriptures available to him at that time, that he fell prey to myths, and more. I'll leave it at that for now.
Again, my next question might be if they believe in God and how do they describe their belief about God and what parts of the Bible do they believe?
Sorry this is so long.
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Not brief and no spacing, i e. A wall of text that i couldn't get my mind to focus on
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
YoursTrue said:
P.S. Then you have to figure exactly what Jesus did teach, and how should a Christian follow him, and what it means to them insofar as life goes as well as the future.
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He didn't teach th OT many Christians tell me the ot is not important to Christianity especially when i pull one of the many horrors out of it
 
viole

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Brian2 said:
Next time I want to go to a gun fight I'll remember that, and I won't ask you about medieval Chinese theatre.
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i expect you ask me about Chinese theater if I make outlandish claims about that. You really should.

ciao

- viole
 
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YoursTrue

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
ChristineM said:
He didn't teach th OT many Christians tell me the ot is not important to Christianity especially when i pull one of the many horrors out of it
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I was thinking about that in reference to horrors. And certainly we would not consider certain occurrences 'nice.'
I will simply say right now that the Israelites especially were prone to attribute various circumstances to God. But Jesus certainly (1) did not write what is called by many the "New Testament," although it is really a continuation of the writings or history that came before him, and (2) he spoke of history of the Jews as real. As an example, when he healed someone of leprosy, he told the man to do as Moses directed.
"Then Jesus said to him: “See that you tell no one, but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses appointed, for a witness to them.” (Matthew 8:4) So he observed what was written.
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
YoursTrue said:
OK, let me simply say that Jesus quoted from the Hebrew/Aramaic scriptures (sometimes known as the OT). He spoke of Noah as a real person. Also Adam and Eve as real.
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And still many Christians don't recognise the ot as Christ like
 
YoursTrue

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
ChristineM said:
And still many Christians don't recognise the ot as Christ like
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Interesting. You say, Christ like. That's a whole other case, which I won't go into now. But Jesus DID speak of Moses, Noah, and others from the (so-called) Old Testament, a misnomer, but I won't go into that now either. :)
And you could be right, there are many who call themselves Christians who either don't believe the Bible, even though they may go to church.
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
YoursTrue said:
Interesting. You say, Christ like. That's a whole other case, which I won't go into now. But Jesus DID speak of Moses, Noah, and others from the (so-called) Old Testament, a misnomer, but I won't go into that now either. :)
And you could be right, there are many who call themselves Christians who either don't believe the Bible, even though they may go to church.
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Calling themselves a Christian is enough for me to believe they are Christian enough to be called a Christian. There are quite a lot of Christians however, who despite Matthew 7:1 are extremely judgemental
 
YoursTrue

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
ChristineM said:
Calling themselves a Christian is enough for me to believe they are Christian enough to be called a Christian. There are quite a lot of Christians however, who despite Matthew 7:1 are extremely judgemental
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It never was enough for me for a person to simply wear a cross or claim he's a Christian. We can have different viewpoints and/or ideas of what is a Christian.
 
PearlSeeker

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
YoursTrue said:
It never was enough for me for a person to simply wear a cross or claim he's a Christian.
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Wanna tell it to this guy?

600-01043303en_Masterfile.jpg
 
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