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The Most Dangerous Myth In The World

It is unsurprising that the Reverend Jim Rigby came under attack recently from conservative Christians over his decision to allow the atheist academic Robert Jensen to become a member of his Presbyterian church in Austin, Texas. These outraged conservative Christians shrieked at Rigby: 'How can you let someone join the church who cannot affirm the divinity of Christ? Does nothing matter to you Liberals?'

For conservative Christians, belief in Jesus's divinity should be central to one's identity as a Christian and anyone who does not embrace this belief is not a true Christian. Liberal Christians, on the other hand, suggest that instead of viewing Jesus's divinity as literally true this idea should be understood as a myth, a metaphor, a symbol, and the like. Thus, liberal and conservative Christians are located at the opposite ends of a broad spectrum of belief regarding the divinity of Jesus with Christians who are undecided, confused or indifferent about the matter falling in between.

The liberal Christian position that Jesus's divinity is a myth derives from the widespread agreement among New Testament scholars that Jesus himself did not claim he was God incarnate, and that this claim was put into his mouth by the apostle Paul and the authors of the gospels. For New Testament scholars, Jesus did not regard himself as divine but only as a prophet who felt it was his mission to proclaim the end of the existing order of things and the imminent establishment of God's kingdom on earth. The fact that God's kingdom failed to materialise shows that Jesus was certainly not God incarnate. After all, if one of the alleged attributes of God is omniscience then how could Jesus as God have been so spectacularly wrong about the coming kingdom? For New Testament scholars, Jesus's 'divinity' should be understood as the outcome of a process of myth-making whereby Jesus the failed prophet was successively transformed into 'Jesus the Saviour' and into 'Jesus the Messiah' by Paul and the gospels' writers, and ultimately into 'Jesus the Second Person of the Trinity' by councils of bishops at Nicaea and Chalcedon several centuries later.

For liberal Christians, Christianity 'is not about grovelling before a saviour, it's joining in the work of saving our world' (Reverend Rigby). Thus, liberal Christians argue for the need to give up the mythical idea of Jesus as a divine being who came into this world to atone for humanity's sins, and to focus on the latter's moral teachings instead. Jesus, in other words, should be seen purely as an inspirational figure who exemplified how Christians ought to live in the world and behave towards others, and nothing beyond this. For liberal Christians, it is the emulation of Jesus as an ethical role model which should be central to Christian identity and not belief in the myth of Jesus's divinity.

The reason why Reverend Rigby wishes to shift the focus of Christian identity away from belief in the myth of Jesus's divinity, and why Jensen as a 'Christian atheist' wishes to engage critically with this myth, is because it is a myth which has been, and continues to be, both dangerously divisive and pernicious in its effects. The following are just a few reasons why this is so:

The myth that Jesus was God incarnate has been used over the last two millennia as the fundamental justification for anti-Semitism in the Christian world. Why? Because according to the New Testament the Jews did not just kill a man. No. They committed the worst crime imaginable. They killed God in the form of Jesus. Because they were held to be collectively responsible for this most awful and heinous of acts, the Jewish people have been systematically used by Christians throughout the ages as the scapegoat par excellence on which they could project and discharge their accumulated feelings of guilt, inadequacy and self-loathing. As the 'murderers of Christ'' no punishment has been deemed too terrible for Jews by Christians historically.

The myth that Jesus was God incarnate accounts for conservative Christianity's posture of superiority vis-a-vis all the other world religions. Why? Because this myth entails that Christianity was personally founded by God Himself, and therefore every other religion by implication is inferior or just plain wrong. The supercilious conceit of this position is manifested in the Christian dogma Extra ecclesiam nulla salus - 'Outside the church there is no salvation'. Thus, in 1960 the Chicago Congress of World Mission could state with self-righteous arrogance: 'In the years since the Second World War more than one billion souls have passed into eternity and more than half of these went to the torment of hell fire without even hearing of Jesus Christ, who He was, or why He died on the cross of Calvary'.

The myth of Jesus's divinity serves as a powerful basis for the subjugation, oppression and slander of women. The myth that Jesus was God incarnate is - if you'll pardon the expression - a 'godsend' for the Christian male chauvinist as it provides him with the perfect rationalisation for his hatred and fear of women. The male chauvinist Christian blockhead 'reasons' thus: If God chose to incarnate as Jesus and not as a woman then this is proof at the 'highest level' that the male is superior to the female. As a woman writer once tersely put it: 'When God is male, the male is God'. Right, fellas?

I'll refrain here from describing how the myth that Jesus was God incarnate was used as an ideological device for sanctioning the exploitation, oppression and extermination of 'heathen' colonial peoples in every corner of the globe by European nations from the 16th century onwards - out of fear of making you feel sick and depressed. Suffice it to say, that the amount of horror, suffering and conflict which the myth of Jesus's divinity has directly or indirectly caused to be inflicted on the human race over the last two thousand years is beyond calculation.

The furore over Reverend Rigby's acceptance of a 'Christian atheist' into his church could only have occurred in America out of all the Western nations today. Here in Europe, for example, the doctrine of Jesus's divinity is increasingly seen as an archaic embarrassment and protestant churches are awash with Christians who no longer take it seriously. And the time has long passed when a protestant minister who openly expressed his disbelief in this 'article of faith' raised so much as an eyebrow in the media or among the general public. Indeed, the whole 'Christian atheist' thing is somewhat reversed on this side of the Atlantic. Thus, we have now reached the position in Europe that when someone says they are a conservative Christian it is generally viewed as a sign of downright bad taste on their part. For example, among those masters of social etiquette - the French - to declare oneself 'a believer in the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ' is worse than simple bad manners: it is an outrageous act, a grand faux pas as crass and unforgivable, say, as deliberately defecating oneself in a crowded elevator trapped between floors on a hot summer day.

Regards

James
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
First of all, I'm a liberal Christian, and I believe in the divinity of Christ. So do many, many other liberal Christians.

Second, upon what evidence are we to determine the existence of Christ's kingdom on earth? Jesus said, "my kingdom is not of this world." Therefore, we cannot determine the existence of this kingdom on earth using the same definition of "kingdom" as we use for earthly kingdoms. The kingdom of Christ is fundamentally different from earthly kingdoms. I believe this kingdom does exist on earth. it exists in the community of people built upon the love, hospitality, inclusion and acceptance that Christ taught. It exists in the charitable works this community offers to the world. It exists in the wholehearted praise to God offered by this community. It exists in the ascription of worthiness and sovereignty to God by the community.

Your assertion that Christianity is "a myth which has been, and continues to be, both dangerously divisive and pernicious in its effects" cannot be attributed to the myth itself, but to the propensity of humanity to sin, and to the misinterpretation that some apply to the tenets of the faith. This theological faux pas on the part of some has caused Christianity to appear, not as a religion that proclaims good news, but as a religion of pessimism.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Glaswegian said:
It is unsurprising that the Reverend Jim Rigby came under attack recently from conservative Christians over his decision to allow the atheist academic Robert Jensen to become a member of his Presbyterian church in Austin, Texas. These outraged conservative Christians shrieked at Rigby: 'How can you let someone join the church who cannot affirm the divinity of Christ? Does nothing matter to you Liberals?'

For conservative Christians, belief in Jesus's divinity should be central to one's identity as a Christian and anyone who does not embrace this belief is not a true Christian. Liberal Christians, on the other hand, suggest that instead of viewing Jesus's divinity as literally true this idea should be understood as a myth, a metaphor, a symbol, and the like. Thus, liberal and conservative Christians are located at the opposite ends of a broad spectrum of belief regarding the divinity of Jesus with Christians who are undecided, confused or indifferent about the matter falling in between.

The liberal Christian position that Jesus's divinity is a myth derives from the widespread agreement among New Testament scholars that Jesus himself did not claim he was God incarnate, and that this claim was put into his mouth by the apostle Paul and the authors of the gospels. For New Testament scholars, Jesus did not regard himself as divine but only as a prophet who felt it was his mission to proclaim the end of the existing order of things and the imminent establishment of God's kingdom on earth. The fact that God's kingdom failed to materialise shows that Jesus was certainly not God incarnate. After all, if one of the alleged attributes of God is omniscience then how could Jesus as God have been so spectacularly wrong about the coming kingdom? For New Testament scholars, Jesus's 'divinity' should be understood as the outcome of a process of myth-making whereby Jesus the failed prophet was successively transformed into 'Jesus the Saviour' and into 'Jesus the Messiah' by Paul and the gospels' writers, and ultimately into 'Jesus the Second Person of the Trinity' by councils of bishops at Nicaea and Chalcedon several centuries later.

For liberal Christians, Christianity 'is not about grovelling before a saviour, it's joining in the work of saving our world' (Reverend Rigby). Thus, liberal Christians argue for the need to give up the mythical idea of Jesus as a divine being who came into this world to atone for humanity's sins, and to focus on the latter's moral teachings instead. Jesus, in other words, should be seen purely as an inspirational figure who exemplified how Christians ought to live in the world and behave towards others, and nothing beyond this. For liberal Christians, it is the emulation of Jesus as an ethical role model which should be central to Christian identity and not belief in the myth of Jesus's divinity.

The reason why Reverend Rigby wishes to shift the focus of Christian identity away from belief in the myth of Jesus's divinity, and why Jensen as a 'Christian atheist' wishes to engage critically with this myth, is because it is a myth which has been, and continues to be, both dangerously divisive and pernicious in its effects. The following are just a few reasons why this is so:

The myth that Jesus was God incarnate has been used over the last two millennia as the fundamental justification for anti-Semitism in the Christian world. Why? Because according to the New Testament the Jews did not just kill a man. No. They committed the worst crime imaginable. They killed God in the form of Jesus. Because they were held to be collectively responsible for this most awful and heinous of acts, the Jewish people have been systematically used by Christians throughout the ages as the scapegoat par excellence on which they could project and discharge their accumulated feelings of guilt, inadequacy and self-loathing. As the 'murderers of Christ'' no punishment has been deemed too terrible for Jews by Christians historically.

The myth that Jesus was God incarnate accounts for conservative Christianity's posture of superiority vis-a-vis all the other world religions. Why? Because this myth entails that Christianity was personally founded by God Himself, and therefore every other religion by implication is inferior or just plain wrong. The supercilious conceit of this position is manifested in the Christian dogma Extra ecclesiam nulla salus - 'Outside the church there is no salvation'. Thus, in 1960 the Chicago Congress of World Mission could state with self-righteous arrogance: 'In the years since the Second World War more than one billion souls have passed into eternity and more than half of these went to the torment of hell fire without even hearing of Jesus Christ, who He was, or why He died on the cross of Calvary'.

The myth of Jesus's divinity serves as a powerful basis for the subjugation, oppression and slander of women. The myth that Jesus was God incarnate is - if you'll pardon the expression - a 'godsend' for the Christian male chauvinist as it provides him with the perfect rationalisation for his fear and hatred of women. The male chauvinist Christian blockhead 'reasons' thus: If God chose to incarnate as Jesus and not as a woman then this is proof at the 'highest level' that the male is superior to the female. As a woman writer once tersely put it: 'When God is male, the male is God'. Right, fellas?

I'll refrain here from describing how the myth that Jesus was God incarnate was used as an ideological device for sanctioning the exploitation, oppression and extermination of 'heathen' colonial peoples in every corner of the globe by European nations from the 16th century onwards - out of fear of making you feel sick and depressed. Suffice it to say, that the amount of horror, suffering and conflict which the myth of Jesus's divinity has directly or indirectly caused to be inflicted on the human race over the last two thousand years is beyond calculation.

The furore over Reverend Rigby's acceptance of a 'Christian atheist' into his church could only have occurred in America out of all the Western nations today. Here in Europe, for example, the doctrine of Jesus's divinity is increasingly seen as an archaic embarrassment and protestant churches are awash with Christians who no longer take it seriously. And the time has long passed when a protestant minister who openly expressed his disbelief in this 'article of faith' raised so much as an eyebrow in the media or among the general public. Indeed, the whole 'Christian atheist' thing is somewhat reversed on this side of the Atlantic. Thus, we have now reached the position in Europe that when someone says they are a conservative Christian it is generally viewed as a sign of downright bad taste on their part. For example, among those masters of social etiquette - the French - to declare oneself 'a believer in the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ' is worse than simple bad manners: it is an outrageous act, a grand faux pas as crass and unforgivable, say, as deliberately defecating oneself in a crowded elevator trapped between floors on a hot summer day.

Regards

James

This sounds a bit like Thomas Altizer.

"Looking for God in all the wrong places..."
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
The doctrine of the divinity of Christ is a central doctrine of the institutionalized Church. However, it's not the doctrine or myth of the divinity of Christ that is inherently evil, but the use of the institution itself as a tool to destroy the lives of others. It its former drive to rule the world, the Church is more driven by the doctrine that it is the Body of Christ and able to forgive sins -- able to give and withdraw Grace --- these myths have caused far more destruction in the lives of people historically than the Divinity of Christ.

However, I can see how one would want to attack any doctrine of the Church without regard for how other doctrines are actually used to destroy, and the divinity of Christ is a cornerstone of the orthodox churches.

Altizer, of course, thought that both the divinity of Christ and the doctrine of the Church (that is, what Christian apologists say that the church is) are both evil. He holds the ancient heresy call kenosis, where God self-annihilated himself to become Jesus. In his view, the doctrine of the divinity of Christ and the doctrine of the Church are both ancient orthodox heresies, reversing the incarnation. Altizer solves the problem by saying that the Church organization is evil, and we should adopt a non-ecclesiastical Buddist approach to surrender to the nothingness of our dead God.
 

bunny1ohio

Active Member
You go Glas! :clap I feel exactly that way. There is good evidence (although speculative so far) that Christ was actually modeled after another man whom I have posted about in the past, so I won't get really in depth on that. But there is also absolutely NO proof that the man himself (Christ) ever existed except for the Bible. Fine... how about the Egyptian book of the Dead? There's proof that Anubis was real right? He was written about in THOUSANDS of inscriptions in stone... or maybe Zeus and Hera... they were written about an awfully lot.

I think too many people use Christ as a scape-goat to shuck off responsibility for their own actions. They "ask forgiveness" and then POOF.... all is good and they are no longer in the wrong... :areyoucra ermmmm yeah.

There is much more proof that he was not a real man than there is that he was. I don't see why this freaks out so many people, except that many would lose faith completely if it were ever proven that he was a fraud. :eek:

We have people NOW who claim to hear the voice of G-d and be modern-day prophets... so why doesn't anybody ever listen to them? Most people think they are whackos who hear voices and avoid them. Heck... the crazy people used to be considered to be blessed.... "touched by G-d" as it were. All hail the crazy people :D
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
This is a quality post.

At first glance, it appears to my mind as if you have copied this from somewhere, but nevertheless I will interact with this as if it is yours. I will respond in bold.

For conservative Christians, belief in Jesus's divinity should be central to one's identity as a Christian and anyone who does not embrace this belief is not a true Christian. Liberal Christians, on the other hand, suggest that instead of viewing Jesus's divinity as literally true this idea should be understood as a myth, a metaphor, a symbol, and the like. Thus, liberal and conservative Christians are located at the opposite ends of a broad spectrum of belief regarding the divinity of Jesus with Christians who are undecided, confused or indifferent about the matter falling in between.

I agree. Historically speaking, any talk of the divine is classified as a myth. The recognition of the divinity of Christ by faith is the means by which we participate in the myth. I have no protest for Christians who intellectually protest to the divinity of Christ, but if they deny it completely, they have divorced themselves from traditional Christianity and lose a powerful metaphor. I don't think that you are suggesting that.

The liberal Christian position that Jesus's divinity is a myth derives from the widespread agreement among New Testament scholars that Jesus himself did not claim he was God incarnate, and that this claim was put into his mouth by the apostle Paul and the authors of the gospels. For New Testament scholars, Jesus did not regard himself as divine but only as a prophet who felt it was his mission to proclaim the end of the existing order of things and the imminent establishment of God's kingdom on earth. The fact that God's kingdom failed to materialise shows that Jesus was certainly not God incarnate. After all, if one of the alleged attributes of God is omniscience then how could Jesus as God have been so spectacularly wrong about the coming kingdom? For New Testament scholars, Jesus's 'divinity' should be understood as the outcome of a process of myth-making whereby Jesus the failed prophet was successively transformed into 'Jesus the Saviour' and into 'Jesus the Messiah' by Paul and the gospels' writers, and ultimately into 'Jesus the Second Person of the Trinity' by councils of bishops at Nicaea and Chalcedon several centuries later.

This is an interesting debate. We don't have the words of Jesus apart from the Church, who quite obviously by the time that the NT was written believed that Jesus is God. So we have claims to divinity on the mouth of Jesus in the Gospels, and some NT scholars speculate that Jesus could not have said that he was God on the basis that such claims were added later.

It is an error to assume that most NT scholars deny the divinity of Christ on the basis that Jesus did not claim divinity. In my reading, I recall that there are more scholars that affirm the divinity of Christ than deny - even among liberals. The faith is very much alive.

For liberal Christians, Christianity 'is not about grovelling before a saviour, it's joining in the work of saving our world' (Reverend Rigby). Thus, liberal Christians argue for the need to give up the mythical idea of Jesus as a divine being who came into this world to atone for humanity's sins, and to focus on the latter's moral teachings instead. Jesus, in other words, should be seen purely as an inspirational figure who exemplified how Christians ought to live in the world and behave towards others, and nothing beyond this. For liberal Christians, it is the emulation of Jesus as an ethical role model which should be central to Christian identity and not belief in the myth of Jesus's divinity.

Rev. Rigby then is a radical Christian. I have found that liberals worship Christ.

The reason why Reverend Rigby wishes to shift the focus of Christian identity away from belief in the myth of Jesus's divinity, and why Jensen as a 'Christian atheist' wishes to engage critically with this myth, is because it is a myth which has been, and continues to be, both dangerously divisive and pernicious in its effects. The following are just a few reasons why this is so:

The myth that Jesus was God incarnate has been used over the last two millennia as the fundamental justification for anti-Semitism in the Christian world. Why? Because according to the New Testament the Jews did not just kill a man. No. They committed the worst crime imaginable. They killed God in the form of Jesus. Because they were held to be collectively responsible for this most awful and heinous of acts, the Jewish people have been systematically used by Christians throughout the ages as the scapegoat par excellence on which they could project and discharge their accumulated feelings of guilt, inadequacy and self-loathing. As the 'murderers of Christ'' no punishment has been deemed too terrible for Jews by Christians historically.

I don't think that you can sustain an argument that the divinity of Christ is more destructive than other doctrines that actually give the Church power:

1) The call to temporal power
2) The power to give sacraments (eg, in the dark ages the Church refused sacraments as a politcal tool)
3) Papal infalliability

The myth that Jesus was God incarnate accounts for conservative Christianity's posture of superiority vis-a-vis all the other world religions. Why? Because this myth entails that Christianity was personally founded by God Himself, and therefore every other religion by implication is inferior or just plain wrong. The supercilious conceit of this position is manifested in the Christian dogma Extra ecclesiam nulla salus - 'Outside the church there is no salvation'. Thus, in 1960 the Chicago Congress of World Mission could state with self-righteous arrogance: 'In the years since the Second World War more than one billion souls have passed into eternity and more than half of these went to the torment of hell fire without even hearing of Jesus Christ, who He was, or why He died on the cross of Calvary'.

I disagree. The superiority complex of some Christian fundies lies in their sentiment that only Christians will go to heaven. One can affirm the divinity of Christ and practice religious tolerance.

The myth of Jesus's divinity serves as a powerful basis for the subjugation, oppression and slander of women. The myth that Jesus was God incarnate is - if you'll pardon the expression - a 'godsend' for the Christian male chauvinist as it provides him with the perfect rationalisation for his fear and hatred of women. The male chauvinist Christian blockhead 'reasons' thus: If God chose to incarnate as Jesus and not as a woman then this is proof at the 'highest level' that the male is superior to the female. As a woman writer once tersely put it: 'When God is male, the male is God'. Right, fellas?

No. The veneration of Mary combined with the thousands of female saints brings balance to the force.

I'll refrain here from describing how the myth that Jesus was God incarnate was used as an ideological device for sanctioning the exploitation, oppression and extermination of 'heathen' colonial peoples in every corner of the globe by European nations from the 16th century onwards - out of fear of making you feel sick and depressed. Suffice it to say, that the amount of horror, suffering and conflict which the myth of Jesus's divinity has directly or indirectly caused to be inflicted on the human race over the last two thousand years is beyond calculation.

You are forced to do so because such an assumption is indefensible.

The furore over Reverend Rigby's acceptance of a 'Christian atheist' into his church could only have occurred in America out of all the Western nations today. Here in Europe, for example, the doctrine of Jesus's divinity is increasingly seen as an archaic embarrassment and protestant churches are awash with Christians who no longer take it seriously. And the time has long passed when a protestant minister who openly expressed his disbelief in this 'article of faith' raised so much as an eyebrow in the media or among the general public. Indeed, the whole 'Christian atheist' thing is somewhat reversed on this side of the Atlantic. Thus, we have now reached the position in Europe that when someone says they are a conservative Christian it is generally viewed as a sign of downright bad taste on their part. For example, among those masters of social etiquette - the French - to declare oneself 'a believer in the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ' is worse than simple bad manners: it is an outrageous act, a grand faux pas as crass and unforgivable, say, as deliberately defecating oneself in a crowded elevator trapped between floors on a hot summer day.

Regards

James

I've not yet seen or heard of anyone who is embarrassed about the divinity of Christ.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Is there no one interested in talking about this interesting subject?
 

bunny1ohio

Active Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Is there no one interested in talking about this interesting subject?

I'm interested... basically because it is what I inherantly believe to be the truth. But it doesn't seem like very many others are :biglaugh:
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
bunny1ohio said:
I'm interested... basically because it is what I inherantly believe to be the truth. But it doesn't seem like very many others are :biglaugh:

Do you think that the veneration of Mary and other female saints atones for the deification of the male Christ?
 

bunny1ohio

Active Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Do you think that the veneration of Mary and other female saints atones for the deification of the male Christ?

No I don't. I think G-d (if it's a real entity) is not male or female, but a combination of both. So why would it be his only begotten SON who saved us? Shouldn't the mother be deified as the vessel of God's deliverance unto the world as well? I don't believe Christ was G-d made flesh... I think he was only a man... if he ever lived at all that is. And no man or woman should be worshipped as a divine being... they are flesh... they inherit all the weaknesses that come with that station... and therefore are not G-d or any other divinity.

Saints are determined by their actions in life... so I would say yes to that question should Christ be labeled a saint and not G-d made flesh... otherwise no... it is an afterthought of the church I think.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
bunny1ohio said:
No I don't. I think G-d (if it's a real entity) is not male or female, but a combination of both. So why would it be his only begotten SON who saved us? Shouldn't the mother be deified as the vessel of God's deliverance unto the world as well? I don't believe Christ was G-d made flesh... I think he was only a man... if he ever lived at all that is. And no man or woman should be worshipped as a divine being... they are flesh... they inherit all the weaknesses that come with that station... and therefore are not G-d or any other divinity.

Saints are determined by their actions in life... so I would say yes to that question should Christ be labeled a saint and not G-d made flesh... otherwise no... it is an afterthought of the church I think.

You're not protesting a balance, but contesting the very idea that Jesus is God. That's not the question...

EDIT: In other words, for whether right or wrong the Church worships Christ as God, and this practice began in the New Testament itself. Christians also have a very long tradition of venerating Mary, and in some cases even deifying her (which the Church officially rejects), but nevertheless she is honored almost exactly as Christ, and thousands of female saints are venerated as well. To my mind, this looks like a balance rather than a misogynistic doctrine designed to victimize women because women are regularly and widely venerated.

Because of this widespread veneration, I contest this statement:

The myth of Jesus's divinity serves as a powerful basis for the subjugation, oppression and slander of women. The myth that Jesus was God incarnate is - if you'll pardon the expression - a 'godsend' for the Christian male chauvinist as it provides him with the perfect rationalisation for his fear and hatred of women. The male chauvinist Christian blockhead 'reasons' thus: If God chose to incarnate as Jesus and not as a woman then this is proof at the 'highest level' that the male is superior to the female. As a woman writer once tersely put it: 'When God is male, the male is God'.

I'm not sure that the veneration of Mary is an afterthought, but a somewhat "logical" conclusion from the deification of Christ. Since Christ is God, Mary is venerated as the God-bearer. Thus, in Christianity there is a long history of the interdependence of male and female
 

bunny1ohio

Active Member
angellous_evangellous said:
You're not protesting a balance, but contesting the very idea that Jesus is God. That's not the question...

I'm not sure that the veneration of Mary is an afterthought, but a somewhat "logical" conclusion from the deification of Christ. Since Christ is God, Mary is venerated as the God-bearer. Thus, in Christianity there is a long history of the interdependence of male and female

My appologies angellous.... I was arguing the original thread that Christ is mythological... I didn't understand your question clearly enough I suppose which would be my mistake there.

I would agree with your second statement (if Christ and Mary were real) that yes it would logically follow that if Christ were deified that Mary would shortly follow. But I think that the stories of the Bible are MUCH more male oriented than female... the women are usually shown as the antagonists or the catalysts in the downfall of men, and are thus perceived as being inherently dirty or evil in some way. So to me the fact that so many women have been sainted shows me a change in people fundamental ways of thinking about women as a whole as man advances, but it doesn't put them on equal footing in my book... on that I would say no.

Did that make any better sense? (or any sense at all? :areyoucra ) :D
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
bunny1ohio said:
My appologies angellous.... I was arguing the original thread that Christ is mythological... I didn't understand your question clearly enough I suppose which would be my mistake there.

I would agree with your second statement (if Christ and Mary were real) that yes it would logically follow that if Christ were deified that Mary would shortly follow. But I think that the stories of the Bible are MUCH more male oriented than female... the women are usually shown as the antagonists or the catalysts in the downfall of men, and are thus perceived as being inherently dirty or evil in some way. So to me the fact that so many women have been sainted shows me a change in people fundamental ways of thinking about women as a whole as man advances, but it doesn't put them on equal footing in my book... on that I would say no.

Did that make any better sense? (or any sense at all? :areyoucra ) :D

Yes... I don't think that I can argue that men and women are equal, but the deification of Christ is not without extreme devotion to Mary and other women. In other words, it's not singularly male-oriented while Christians recognize a male God in worshipping Jesus Christ.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
bunny1ohio said:
My appologies angellous.... I was arguing the original thread that Christ is mythological... I didn't understand your question clearly enough I suppose which would be my mistake there.

I would agree with your second statement (if Christ and Mary were real) that yes it would logically follow that if Christ were deified that Mary would shortly follow. But I think that the stories of the Bible are MUCH more male oriented than female... the women are usually shown as the antagonists or the catalysts in the downfall of men, and are thus perceived as being inherently dirty or evil in some way. So to me the fact that so many women have been sainted shows me a change in people fundamental ways of thinking about women as a whole as man advances, but it doesn't put them on equal footing in my book... on that I would say no.

Did that make any better sense? (or any sense at all? :areyoucra ) :D

Christ and Mary being myth also has no bearing on the balance brought by the veneration of women and Christ. Both emphases are mythological in content. One myth gives divinity to a man, and the other gives positive supernatural meaning to women.
 

bunny1ohio

Active Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Yes... I don't think that I can argue that men and women are equal, but the deification of Christ is not without extreme devotion to Mary and other women. In other words, it's not singularly male-oriented while Christians recognize a male God in worshipping Jesus Christ.

Alright... you're losing me here angellous :( What exactly is the point you want to debate then? I basically agree with everything you said in those last replies. But I do believe that the Christian religion is extremely male-oriented, I think that's mostly because of the society that existed in the time that the canon was written however, and not so much because of any basic tenants of the Christian faith. The society was a patriarchal one when the books were written, and for the most part women in those days were viewed as chattel. Much of that has changed since then, but that may be why people tend to think of Christ as G-d as male etc.... that's the way it was written and the society of the time said a woman couldn't have been G-d because women were "less" than men.

The deification part I think is where you're losing me... but I'm trying real hard to follow you here lol :D
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
bunny1ohio said:
Alright... you're losing me here angellous :( What exactly is the point you want to debate then? I basically agree with everything you said in those last replies. But I do believe that the Christian religion is extremely male-oriented, I think that's mostly because of the society that existed in the time that the canon was written however, and not so much because of any basic tenants of the Christian faith. The society was a patriarchal one when the books were written, and for the most part women in those days were viewed as chattel. Much of that has changed since then, but that may be why people tend to think of Christ as G-d as male etc.... that's the way it was written and the society of the time said a woman couldn't have been G-d because women were "less" than men.

The deification part I think is where you're losing me... but I'm trying real hard to follow you here lol :D

Basically, I am protesting the point in the OP that since the divinity of Christ can be used to abuse women, there is a parallel practice of venerating women, especially Mary.

Deification is the process of giving divinity to Christ. I am operating from the assumption that the divinity of Christ is a Christian myth. It's a myth because it is unprovable, whether it is from the lips of Jesus or not. However, we have a parallel myth of outstanding females in our religion that women can find exemplars and express their spirituality as women rather than looking to a male alone.
 
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