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The Move Away From Materialism

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Five years ago I believed that everything in the world could be reduced to physical matter, a philosophical position known as “materialism”. I now reject materialism, an increasingly popular position in philosophy, and wish to share my reasons why.


The Mind-Body problem brings us the biggest questions of materialism, in fact questioning the very foundations. As someone in the field of psychology, this is where my studies have been focused. I want to use the well-known examples of placebos to illustrate my first point. Placebos, by definition, are something that does not cause physiological change, and generally is not intended to cause physiological change. Yet its effects are so great that we actually have to test against placebos. The change in placebos comes from the belief that a placebo will help in the first place, which then can actually cause change in one’s body. As a materialist I assumed that the brain simply induced the change, but this makes no sense. By definition no change should be occurring in the brain when taking a placebo. It is the idea of it that leads to change. Recently studies have been showing that placebos can be used, without deception, to help reduce things like pain and anxiety. If we argue that this happens because the placebo causes physiological change, we are assuming that mind-body problem has been solved by physicalism, only then answering the question. This is fallacious. Until we have this evidence of the brain creating the change, we have to remain at the default position which is dualism (or is it…).


As a materialist I often argued that damage to the brain impacting personality was evidence of the mind arising from the brain. This again assumes reductionism before even answering the question. The radio metaphor – that a damaged radio does not imply a lack of radio waves – clearly shows that the brain damage argument simply shows correlation. This is not to say that the brain and mind are not connected in some way. Taking drugs will change how one’s brain is currently functioning, thus affecting the mind, but the “self” still remains the same. Even in the most surreal of trips, things will be determined by the foundations of the “self”. Psychedelic trips could/should be interpreted using the individual’s mannerisms, thoughts, obsessions, etc and so on.


I don’t want to make this run too long so I would like to make one final point for now, and let others arise through debate/discussion. Any understanding of any possible external world relies on one observing and interacting with it through the internal world. As a materialist I saw the “self” as reduced to simply physiological processes, yet I can know this “self” far more directly than any physiological processes. Hell, I’ve known my “Self” every remembered second of my life, but I’ve never even seen a human brain with my own eyes, or touched one. A rejection of the “self” is logically impossible, because we can never even ponder a single thing without reliance on that “self”. “I exist” is an axiomatic statement for any self-aware individual who says it. “The brain exists” relies on understanding an external world – one that we have no self-free way of proving it exists – through the self.


In short, materialism cannot show how ideas or beliefs can precede physiological changes, it only suggests a correlation between brain and mind, and it has to ignore a logical axiom in order to reduce the “self” to “matter”.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Five years ago I believed that everything in the world could be reduced to physical matter, a philosophical position known as “materialism”. I now reject materialism, an increasingly popular position in philosophy, and wish to share my reasons why.


The Mind-Body problem brings us the biggest questions of materialism, in fact questioning the very foundations. As someone in the field of psychology, this is where my studies have been focused. I want to use the well-known examples of placebos to illustrate my first point. Placebos, by definition, are something that does not cause physiological change, and generally is not intended to cause physiological change. Yet its effects are so great that we actually have to test against placebos. The change in placebos comes from the belief that a placebo will help in the first place, which then can actually cause change in one’s body. As a materialist I assumed that the brain simply induced the change, but this makes no sense. By definition no change should be occurring in the brain when taking a placebo. It is the idea of it that leads to change. Recently studies have been showing that placebos can be used, without deception, to help reduce things like pain and anxiety. If we argue that this happens because the placebo causes physiological change, we are assuming that mind-body problem has been solved by physicalism, only then answering the question. This is fallacious. Until we have this evidence of the brain creating the change, we have to remain at the default position which is dualism (or is it…).


As a materialist I often argued that damage to the brain impacting personality was evidence of the mind arising from the brain. This again assumes reductionism before even answering the question. The radio metaphor – that a damaged radio does not imply a lack of radio waves – clearly shows that the brain damage argument simply shows correlation. This is not to say that the brain and mind are not connected in some way. Taking drugs will change how one’s brain is currently functioning, thus affecting the mind, but the “self” still remains the same. Even in the most surreal of trips, things will be determined by the foundations of the “self”. Psychedelic trips could/should be interpreted using the individual’s mannerisms, thoughts, obsessions, etc and so on.


I don’t want to make this run too long so I would like to make one final point for now, and let others arise through debate/discussion. Any understanding of any possible external world relies on one observing and interacting with it through the internal world. As a materialist I saw the “self” as reduced to simply physiological processes, yet I can know this “self” far more directly than any physiological processes. Hell, I’ve known my “Self” every remembered second of my life, but I’ve never even seen a human brain with my own eyes, or touched one. A rejection of the “self” is logically impossible, because we can never even ponder a single thing without reliance on that “self”. “I exist” is an axiomatic statement for any self-aware individual who says it. “The brain exists” relies on understanding an external world – one that we have no self-free way of proving it exists – through the self.


In short, materialism cannot show how ideas or beliefs can precede physiological changes, it only suggests a correlation between brain and mind, and it has to ignore a logical axiom in order to reduce the “self” to “matter”.

May I ask how dualism explain the placebo effect, if any? Do souls change physiology?

Ciao

- viole
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Five years ago I believed that everything in the world could be reduced to physical matter, a philosophical position known as “materialism”. I now reject materialism, an increasingly popular position in philosophy, and wish to share my reasons why.


The Mind-Body problem brings us the biggest questions of materialism, in fact questioning the very foundations. As someone in the field of psychology, this is where my studies have been focused. I want to use the well-known examples of placebos to illustrate my first point. Placebos, by definition, are something that does not cause physiological change, and generally is not intended to cause physiological change. Yet its effects are so great that we actually have to test against placebos. The change in placebos comes from the belief that a placebo will help in the first place, which then can actually cause change in one’s body. As a materialist I assumed that the brain simply induced the change, but this makes no sense. By definition no change should be occurring in the brain when taking a placebo. It is the idea of it that leads to change. Recently studies have been showing that placebos can be used, without deception, to help reduce things like pain and anxiety. If we argue that this happens because the placebo causes physiological change, we are assuming that mind-body problem has been solved by physicalism, only then answering the question. This is fallacious. Until we have this evidence of the brain creating the change, we have to remain at the default position which is dualism (or is it…).
I am a non-materialist myself, but couldn't a materialist argue that taking a placebo causes a change in thinking and brain chemistry and this effects hormones, excretions, etc..? I just don't think placebos make the strongest case against materialism.
As a materialist I often argued that damage to the brain impacting personality was evidence of the mind arising from the brain. This again assumes reductionism before even answering the question. The radio metaphor – that a damaged radio does not imply a lack of radio waves – clearly shows that the brain damage argument simply shows correlation. This is not to say that the brain and mind are not connected in some way. Taking drugs will change how one’s brain is currently functioning, thus affecting the mind, but the “self” still remains the same. Even in the most surreal of trips, things will be determined by the foundations of the “self”. Psychedelic trips could/should be interpreted using the individual’s mannerisms, thoughts, obsessions, etc and so on.
I agree here that the old materialist argument claiming that effects to the brain effects consciousness does not argue for materialism. In the non-materialist model, the brain is the last link in consciousness and needs to be in working order for physical plane consciousness to occur (but how does that argue for materialism). We all know a working brain is required to express consciousness on the physical plane, but this does not argue that it is the 'source' of consciousness.
I don’t want to make this run too long so I would like to make one final point for now, and let others arise through debate/discussion. Any understanding of any possible external world relies on one observing and interacting with it through the internal world. As a materialist I saw the “self” as reduced to simply physiological processes, yet I can know this “self” far more directly than any physiological processes. Hell, I’ve known my “Self” every remembered second of my life, but I’ve never even seen a human brain with my own eyes, or touched one. A rejection of the “self” is logically impossible, because we can never even ponder a single thing without reliance on that “self”. “I exist” is an axiomatic statement for any self-aware individual who says it. “The brain exists” relies on understanding an external world – one that we have no self-free way of proving it exists – through the self.



In short, materialism cannot show how ideas or beliefs can precede physiological changes, it only suggests a correlation between brain and mind, and it has to ignore a logical axiom in order to reduce the “self” to “matter”.
I basically agree with your position above, but these logical arguments can always be challenged ad infinitum. What has convinced me of the incorrectness of materialism is my study of many fields of 'beyond the normal' phenomena that has accumulated to the point that I believe certain phenomena exists beyond any reasonable doubt. When all these various fields are combined I really have no doubt of the failure of materialism as a working theory. I guess for me, the real-world evidence trumps any of the endless logical argumentations.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Whenever the mind is active, so is the brain.

Placebos depend on thinking by which there is the tangability of neurons firing. Placebos are triggers much like the fight or flight response triggers chemical reactions to stimulus.
 
The 'brain is a radio ' argument is pretty weak as it offers more assumptions and questions than it answers. Brain science has come a long way. We can see what parts of the brain light up when we say, eat a sandwich, or observe the color green. We know what chemicals the brain releases and when, and how that effects the brain while we experience these things.

Adding an extra layer or layers(the brain is a proxy/receiver for something else) not only adds more assumptions, but offers no additional explanatory power. In fact, it removes explanatory power by removing brain science from the realm of science altogether and moving it latterly into the domain of religion/superstition(which has given us exactly 0 technology of any sort in 10000 years)
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
The 'brain is a radio ' argument is pretty weak as it offers more assumptions and questions than it answers. Brain science has come a long way. We can see what parts of the brain light up when we say, eat a sandwich, or observe the color green. We know what chemicals the brain releases and when, and how that effects the brain while we experience these things.
How does any of those examples argue against 'the brain is a receiver' theory?
Adding an extra layer or layers(the brain is a proxy/receiver for something else) not only adds more assumptions, but offers no additional explanatory power.
It adds explanatory power for phenomena whose existence materialists are in denial of; ghost encounters, Near Death Experiences (including veridical knowledge), childhood reincarnation memories with detailed verifiable information, spirit communication with the living, etc., etc.. I have studied these things in detail for decades and I am personally convinced that things happen that are not explainable by the materialist's theory of consciousness. Yes, that is just my strong considered opinion.
In fact, it removes explanatory power by removing brain science from the realm of science altogether and moving it latterly into the domain of religion/superstition(which has given us exactly 0 technology of any sort in 10000 years)
That is not true. Everything that happens is in the domain of science. I see a vastly expanded domain of science beyond materialism. And the post-materialist scientists I am influenced by are doctors, PHD's, etc. with no religious/superstitious prejudice.
 
How does any of those examples argue against 'the brain is a receiver' theory?
They show that the brain creates experiences rather than receives them. That is, unless you postulate yet another layer of bald assumptions that the brain is actually only receiving signals to formulate these experiences from who knows where, who knows why and without even a hint at how. Seems like a lot of mental contortionism to me.
It adds explanatory power for phenomena whose existence materialists are in denial of; ghost encounters, Near Death Experiences (including veridical knowledge), childhood reincarnation memories with detailed verifiable information, spirit communication with the living, etc., etc.. I have studied these things in detail for decades and I am personally convinced that things happen that are not explainable by the materialist's theory of consciousness. Yes, that is just my strong considered opinion.
I think you forgot Bigfoot and Nessie. Seriously though, there is no evidence to support any of this.

Let me tell you a secret. When I was about 6, I saw a 'ghost'. Plain as day, to this day it's one of my clearest memories. I do realize the memory could be a false positive, but even if it isn't im not going to start making a bunch of assumptions about the afterlife, or dead people walking, or magical entities. Why? Because that wouldn't get me anywhere, or tell me anything. Intellectual honesty.
That is not true. Everything that happens is in the domain of science. I see a vastly expanded domain of science beyond materialism. And the post-materialist scientists I am influenced by are doctors, PHD's, etc. with no religious/superstitious prejudice.

Yes, I agree, everything that is is natural. I don't think we have the technology to figure this all out yet, but with that said, wishful thinking will never be a viable alternative.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
They show that the brain creates experiences rather than receives them.
That doesn't follow. How do you go from the physical activity of atoms and electrons to an experience?
That is, unless you postulate yet another layer of bald assumptions that the brain is actually only receiving signals to formulate these experiences from who knows where, who knows why and without even a hint at how.
From a study of eastern wisdom traditions and esoteric western traditions these things are explained and discussed in great detail. The key is interpenetrating planes of nature existing in dimensions beyond our familiar three and at vibratory rates way beyond detection by physical senses or instruments.
Seems like a lot of mental contortionism to me.
Thinking abstract to what it is our normal experience is even required for conventional physics.
I think you forgot Bigfoot and Nessie. Seriously though, there is no evidence to support any of this.
Who determines that there is no evidence? The deniers? I know of a ton of high quality evidence from some of the brightest minds out there.
Let me tell you a secret. When I was about 6, I saw a 'ghost'. Plain as day, to this day it's one of my clearest memories. I do realize the memory could be a false positive, but even if it isn't im not going to start making a bunch of assumptions about the afterlife, or dead people walking, or magical entities. Why? Because that wouldn't get me anywhere, or tell me anything. Intellectual honesty.
Well, I believe if one seriously studies the teachings and evidence out there, a lot can be known about these kind of things.

Yes, I agree, everything that is is natural. I don't think we have the technology to figure this all out yet, but with that said, wishful thinking will never be a viable alternative.
I don't believe either in wishful thinking forming my view of reality. I prefer the most reasoned evaluation of all the evidence and argumentation from all sides.
 
Look, I get that you want to know and understand more, as do I for that matter. The difference being I will accept no shortcuts, nor take any steps on less than sure footing

I don't believe either in wishful thinking forming my view of reality. I prefer the most reasoned evaluation of all the evidence and argumentation from all sides.

Literally everyone thinks that about their own beliefs.
 

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
Look, I get that you want to know and understand more, as do I for that matter. The difference being I will accept no shortcuts, nor take any steps on less than sure footing



Literally everyone thinks that about their own beliefs.
I would like to ask something here. You said that we know that the brain produces consciousness. How do we know? There is the materialistic model of the brain and then there is the filter model of the brain. The filter model of the brain is where the brain is a receiver. But how do you know that the filter model is false? Couldn't everything that is explained through the materialistic model also be explained through the filter model?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
The difference being I will accept no shortcuts, nor take any steps on less than sure footing.
That's an acceptable position, actually.

For me, I feel I have looked into the arguments and evidence from all sides quite deeply and for a long time and am personally beyond any reasonable doubt of the insufficiency of the materialist world-view.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
We all became material to enjoy our material world, why wast your life pretending your not in a material world, enjoy it.
 
I would like to ask something here. You said that we know that the brain produces consciousness. How do we know? There is the materialistic model of the brain and then there is the filter model of the brain. The filter model of the brain is where the brain is a receiver. But how do you know that the filter model is false? Couldn't everything that is explained through the materialistic model also be explained through the filter model?

We don't know, we only have where the evidence reasonably can take us, which is of course always subject to change as more evidence comes in.

Occam's Razor tells us that the fewest amount of assumptions is best if one is to be thorough in the pursuit of truth, and with that said the 'filter' model requires many more assumptions without explaining anything extra.

In addition, it isn't really a sound hypothesis as no evidence indicates the brain is a receiver. We already know what every part of the brain does; the sort of complex receiver equipment that would need to be built into our brains just isn't there. You are in no way talking about anything scientifically plausible.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Five years ago I believed that everything in the world could be reduced to physical matter, a philosophical position known as “materialism”. I now reject materialism, an increasingly popular position in philosophy, and wish to share my reasons why.


The Mind-Body problem brings us the biggest questions of materialism, in fact questioning the very foundations. As someone in the field of psychology, this is where my studies have been focused. I want to use the well-known examples of placebos to illustrate my first point. Placebos, by definition, are something that does not cause physiological change, and generally is not intended to cause physiological change. Yet its effects are so great that we actually have to test against placebos. The change in placebos comes from the belief that a placebo will help in the first place, which then can actually cause change in one’s body. As a materialist I assumed that the brain simply induced the change, but this makes no sense. By definition no change should be occurring in the brain when taking a placebo. It is the idea of it that leads to change. Recently studies have been showing that placebos can be used, without deception, to help reduce things like pain and anxiety. If we argue that this happens because the placebo causes physiological change, we are assuming that mind-body problem has been solved by physicalism, only then answering the question. This is fallacious. Until we have this evidence of the brain creating the change, we have to remain at the default position which is dualism (or is it…).


As a materialist I often argued that damage to the brain impacting personality was evidence of the mind arising from the brain. This again assumes reductionism before even answering the question. The radio metaphor – that a damaged radio does not imply a lack of radio waves – clearly shows that the brain damage argument simply shows correlation. This is not to say that the brain and mind are not connected in some way. Taking drugs will change how one’s brain is currently functioning, thus affecting the mind, but the “self” still remains the same. Even in the most surreal of trips, things will be determined by the foundations of the “self”. Psychedelic trips could/should be interpreted using the individual’s mannerisms, thoughts, obsessions, etc and so on.


I don’t want to make this run too long so I would like to make one final point for now, and let others arise through debate/discussion. Any understanding of any possible external world relies on one observing and interacting with it through the internal world. As a materialist I saw the “self” as reduced to simply physiological processes, yet I can know this “self” far more directly than any physiological processes. Hell, I’ve known my “Self” every remembered second of my life, but I’ve never even seen a human brain with my own eyes, or touched one. A rejection of the “self” is logically impossible, because we can never even ponder a single thing without reliance on that “self”. “I exist” is an axiomatic statement for any self-aware individual who says it. “The brain exists” relies on understanding an external world – one that we have no self-free way of proving it exists – through the self.


In short, materialism cannot show how ideas or beliefs can precede physiological changes, it only suggests a correlation between brain and mind, and it has to ignore a logical axiom in order to reduce the “self” to “matter”.

But if the correlation is repeatable and unchanging, then it is correct to assume causation. Why would you observe such repeated evidence and then decide otherwise?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
But if the correlation is repeatable and unchanging, then it is correct to assume causation. Why would you observe such repeated evidence and then decide otherwise?

Every time I turn my radio on I get music. Should I assume my radio is producing the music?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
We don't know, we only have where the evidence reasonably can take us, which is of course always subject to change as more evidence comes in.

I completely agree, which is why I can't accept materialism as it cannot even suggest mechanism and is plagued with philosophical shortcomings.

Occam's Razor tells us that the fewest amount of assumptions is best if one is to be thorough in the pursuit of truth, and with that said the 'filter' model requires many more assumptions without explaining anything extra.

Materialism actually requires more assumptions, such as that the brain creates the mind without the slightest insight as to how. I've already leveled numerous of these issues at you which you've entirely refused to address.

In addition, it isn't really a sound hypothesis as no evidence indicates the brain is a receiver. We already know what every part of the brain does; the sort of complex receiver equipment that would need to be built into our brains just isn't there. You are in no way talking about anything scientifically plausible.

So we know everything the brain does, but we don't see how it creates consciousness, yet we should accept it anyways? Don't pretend you're interested in truth or soundness lol.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Every time I turn my radio on I get music. Should I assume my radio is producing the music?

It is REproducing the music. The music was produced by instruments that produced alternate waves of compression and decompression in the air. This was transformed into either radio waves or digital information and reconverted by the radio into waves of compression and decompression to physically act on your ear drum. That in turn stimulated nerves in the inner ear, which our brains interpreted as sound.
All physical phenomena that are well understood. Your comparison is a false one.
 
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