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The Mystery of the Empty Tomb

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
The Mystery of the Empty Tomb


All the four gospel writers are unanimous on it that the tomb was empty. But how it got empty is the answer we have got to find for the question.

Starting with Matthew, at the end of that Sabbath, which in Israel is at the sunset, Mary Magdalene with another Mary, went to see the tomb. Never mind that the tombstone was sealed and the guards were there to prevent the approach of any suspect. They either did not know it or the conspiracy to provide an eyewitness had backfired.

As the women arrived there, there was nothing of the sort. However, the writer of Matthew reports an earthquake, as an angel came down to move the tombstone, and sat on it. Who was inside the tomb? Nobody. The tomb was empty. Then, the angel addressed the women and said, "I know you are looking for Jesus. As you can see, he is not here." The tomb was empty. Even the angel could not be used as an eyewitness, because when he removed the tombstone, the tomb was empty already. (Mat. 28:1-6)

Let us ask Mark about this. He says almost the same, except for the earthquake. When that Sabbath was over, the women brought perfumed oils to anoint Jesus' body. They were worried only on how to remove the tombstone, which was huge. Never mind that it was sealed and kept by guards, because when they got there, they saw nothing of the sort. So much so that the stone was already removed and the tomb was empty, except for a youngman who was there, telling them that Jesus was not there. That he had been raised. He was right, because by the will of God one rises, but by the will of man one is raised. It means that someone had indeed removed Jesus from there. (Mark 16:1-6)

How about Luke? What did he have to say? That the tombstone was removed, the tomb was empty, but there were two guys asking why the women were looking for the living among the dead. And that Jesus had been raised. Mind you, not risen but raised. The women went to tell the disciples, and they refused to believe their "nonsense and idle tale," as those were their very words. Probably, Jesus had never mentioned such a thing about himself. (Luke 24:1-11)

Last but not least, we have John, who brought to the tomb only Mary Magdalene. The tombstone was removed as usual, and the tomb was indeed empty. All that Mary could think of, was that Jesus had been taken from the tomb. They all probably had never heard about resurrection. Mary remained at the tomb crying her eyes out. Then, to a guy there, whom she thought was the Gardener, she asked to let her know where he had put Jesus' body, so that she could take it away with her, if he had been the one who had removed Jesus from there. It means that Mary had come to the tomb with the intention to remove Jesus from there. Bad luck for her, because obviously Joseph of Arimathea had done the removal during the first hours of Friday night. (John 20:1-15)

As we all can see, the mystery is not in the empty tomb but in the how the tomb got empty. Quite easy to solve if we try to understand the difference between rising and being raised, and the inconsistency among the four gospel writers on reporting the "idle tale" of the resurrection. (Luke 24:11)

Ben
 

Smoke

Done here.
It got empty because Jesus got up and walked out. The angels moved the stone for him, what trouble would He have?
Not according to Matthew. Why would Jesus need an angel to move the stone, anyway?
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: and for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you​
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Not according to Matthew. Why would Jesus need an angel to move the stone, anyway?
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: and for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you

How does this passage, especially the underlined portion, contradict Here I Am's claim that an angel moved the stone? As for why an angel would be necessary, who says the angel was NECESSARY? The story is that an angel moved the stone, not that an angel HAD TO move the stone.
 

Smoke

Done here.
How does this passage, especially the underlined portion, contradict Here I Am's claim that an angel moved the stone?
It doesn't. It contradicts his claim that Jesus simply walked out of the tomb, and that the angel moved the stone for him to do so.
 

Carico

Active Member
The Mystery of the Empty Tomb


All the four gospel writers are unanimous on it that the tomb was empty. But how it got empty is the answer we have got to find for the question.

Starting with Matthew, at the end of that Sabbath, which in Israel is at the sunset, Mary Magdalene with another Mary, went to see the tomb. Never mind that the tombstone was sealed and the guards were there to prevent the approach of any suspect. They either did not know it or the conspiracy to provide an eyewitness had backfired.

As the women arrived there, there was nothing of the sort. However, the writer of Matthew reports an earthquake, as an angel came down to move the tombstone, and sat on it. Who was inside the tomb? Nobody. The tomb was empty. Then, the angel addressed the women and said, "I know you are looking for Jesus. As you can see, he is not here." The tomb was empty. Even the angel could not be used as an eyewitness, because when he removed the tombstone, the tomb was empty already. (Mat. 28:1-6)

Let us ask Mark about this. He says almost the same, except for the earthquake. When that Sabbath was over, the women brought perfumed oils to anoint Jesus' body. They were worried only on how to remove the tombstone, which was huge. Never mind that it was sealed and kept by guards, because when they got there, they saw nothing of the sort. So much so that the stone was already removed and the tomb was empty, except for a youngman who was there, telling them that Jesus was not there. That he had been raised. He was right, because by the will of God one rises, but by the will of man one is raised. It means that someone had indeed removed Jesus from there. (Mark 16:1-6)

How about Luke? What did he have to say? That the tombstone was removed, the tomb was empty, but there were two guys asking why the women were looking for the living among the dead. And that Jesus had been raised. Mind you, not risen but raised. The women went to tell the disciples, and they refused to believe their "nonsense and idle tale," as those were their very words. Probably, Jesus had never mentioned such a thing about himself. (Luke 24:1-11)

Last but not least, we have John, who brought to the tomb only Mary Magdalene. The tombstone was removed as usual, and the tomb was indeed empty. All that Mary could think of, was that Jesus had been taken from the tomb. They all probably had never heard about resurrection. Mary remained at the tomb crying her eyes out. Then, to a guy there, whom she thought was the Gardener, she asked to let her know where he had put Jesus' body, so that she could take it away with her, if he had been the one who had removed Jesus from there. It means that Mary had come to the tomb with the intention to remove Jesus from there. Bad luck for her, because obviously Joseph of Arimathea had done the removal during the first hours of Friday night. (John 20:1-15)

As we all can see, the mystery is not in the empty tomb but in the how the tomb got empty. Quite easy to solve if we try to understand the difference between rising and being raised, and the inconsistency among the four gospel writers on reporting the "idle tale" of the resurrection. (Luke 24:11)

Ben

Again, put them together and you'll get the whole story. :) The gospel writers are no different than 4 witnesses to a car accident from 4 different sides of the car. Their accounts will be different but all of them true. So you have to put their accounts together to get the whole story. :)
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Again, put them together and you'll get the whole story. :) The gospel writers are no different than 4 witnesses to a car accident from 4 different sides of the car. Their accounts will be different but all of them true. So you have to put their accounts together to get the whole story. :)
That's what we call "mush gospel."

Here's where we get the idea that the stable was crowded with shepherds and wise men, all at the same time.
 

Carico

Active Member
That's what we call "mush gospel."

Here's where we get the idea that the stable was crowded with shepherds and wise men, all at the same time.

You can call it anything you want. But that's why Jesus tells us that every matter must be established by at least 2 or 3 witnesses. The gospels are alike enough to confirm each other and different enough not to sound rehearsed. Sorry. ;)
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You can call it anything you want. But that's why Jesus tells us that every matter must be established by at least 2 or 3 witnesses. The gospels are alike enough to confirm each other and different enough not to sound rehearsed. Sorry. ;)
And they give us completely different constructions of the pericope in question, and use the pericope differently in the presentation of their respective gospels. Therefore, what we take away from the canonical gospels is not one story cobbled together from different sources, but four completely different stories describing the same event. The "matter" of the resurrection is corroborated by each writer, making each pericope a "witness" to the resurrection. But we have to remember that they are each separate stories -- not the same story.
Sorry.;)
 

Carico

Active Member
And they give us completely different constructions of the pericope in question, and use the pericope differently in the presentation of their respective gospels. Therefore, what we take away from the canonical gospels is not one story cobbled together from different sources, but four completely different stories describing the same event. The "matter" of the resurrection is corroborated by each writer, making each pericope a "witness" to the resurrection. But we have to remember that they are each separate stories -- not the same story.
Sorry.;)

Wrong. Put them together, which you haven't done yet.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Not according to Matthew. Why would Jesus need an angel to move the stone, anyway?
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: and for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you


The angel did not say he had been risen, but that he had been raised. The difference between the semantic of these two terms is vital.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Again, put them together and you'll get the whole story. :) The gospel writers are no different than 4 witnesses to a car accident from 4 different sides of the car. Their accounts will be different but all of them true. So you have to put their accounts together to get the whole story. :)


How about when all four are wrong? All four say that Jesus was raised from the tomb, and Christians insist that Jesus was risen. Then, mind you that they were not witnesses to anything about the alleged resurrection. They wrote from hearsay or fabrication about 50+ years after the fact.
 
How about when all four are wrong? All four say that Jesus was raised from the tomb, and Christians insist that Jesus was risen. Then, mind you that they were not witnesses to anything about the alleged resurrection. They wrote from hearsay or fabrication about 50+ years after the fact.

What is the difference between being risen and being raised? Do you mean to say the gospels say Jesus was raised as in picked up, instead of risen mean me awoke from death?

What evidence do you have that the gospels were written from hearsay or fabrication? The four writers state that they were either eyewitnesses to all the events they wrote about, or recorded the testimony of eyewitnesses.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
One possibility overlooked is that Xianity may have partially "risen" from a cult that believed people could rise from the dead, with said cult knowing nothing about a "Messiah" or past prophesie of the OT.
 
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