The Mystery Thread

[ecco]

ecco said: ↑​

God's actions like undersea earthquakes and rockslides that kill hundreds of thousands of people?

God's actions like volcanic eruptions that kill hundreds of thousands of people?

Specifically, from which of God's actions can we learn truth?

Yes, you can see God's actions. Now,THINK, how does it fit into a Masterpiece. Knowledge runs very very Deep. So much more lives beyond the mere surface. How do these things change things? A much Wider view is needed in order to Discover the Big picture.

Is your view wide enough to enable you to answer basic questions like the one I raised?

 

[Jollybear]

If both A and Not A are possible under your scenario, you cannot use the presence or absence of A as a test for the scenario.

That's basic science.

Why is that basic science?

Why?

The reason simplicity dont need a designer is because its simple. Its like.....again.....a painter splashing paint on a canvas. The canvas and paint dont need the painter to make by itself simple lines, drips and blobs.

But, it does need the painter to make the scenery picture.

Science isn't conducted via analogies.

Science is not a person, science is done by persons. And depending on the person, some may use analogies to elucidate a point. Thats all im using them for.

The limits you're setting on your explanation are entirely religious. That's not how science works.

So science dont work by evidence, inference and philosophy? Thats all im doing. If you call that religion, then evolutionists and atheists are equally religious then. And more so.

Then show where "evolutionists" have done so.

Evolutionists have and do. They use "evidence" inference and philosophy. There is no proof. Do you agree evolutionists use these three things?

So the god you believe in isn't all powerful? This god didn't create the universe out of nothing? What then did this god create the universe from?

No, God is not all powerfull in the way you describe it. God has power over his creation, but when it defies logic, God does not have power. Like creating a rock so big he cannot lift it. That defies logic for an infinite being.

God created the universe out of himself. Himself is SOMETHING, not, nothing. Himself is eternal, infinite energy, conciousness and intelligence.

And exactly how did you establish that these are indeed the characteristics of God?

Logic, inference, philosophy and evidence.

You keep saying this but you haven't shown where scientists have actually done so. As noted earlier, things aren't so just because you say they are and your empty assertions are not at all persuasive.

Michael shermer (science writer, founder of skeptics society), richard dawkins (biologist) and Lawrence Krauss (physicist, cosmologist) im aware have advocated something from nothing.

They are "naturalist" scientists.

Why not, and how do you know?

Why cant God create a universe that looks eternal? Because its a logical contradiction. If he creates it, then it BEGINS. Its not eternal. And to make it LOOK eternal would be deceptive. PLUS, it does not even look eternal. To look eternal it have to be static.

Your posts up to this point have been a series of unsubstantiated assertions. That's not science.

Everything ive given you has been evidence, inference, logic and philosophical support for ID. I have not given you proof, because rarely anything can be proven.

Further, your asserting i have not provided these things, and i have. Assertions are not science.

Science doesn't operate via "because person X said so".

True, but its PERSONS or people that DO science. Its people that give LIFE TO science. Science dont do science by itself.

And by the same standard we never see gods creating things either.

Good one, but, whats more plausable, something comming from nothing, or God (something) creating something else?

Logically the more plausable is God. Plus, due to DESIGN, adds double plausability. The something that comes from nothing or God, looks designed. You seeing this come together yet?

How did you scientifically establish that God is eternal and infinite?

Isnt the law of thermodynamics state energy is not created? God is eternal. Since space has a starting point as well, God is infinite.

I'm sure that's what you believe, but if you think what you've posted so far is persuasive and scientific, you probably should think on it a bit more.

It may not be persuasive to you, but it definately is scientific. Logically it is. It does not matter who acceps it. Lay person or profesional scientists or the mainstream. Logic is logic and i know how logic is used. My mind is very inclined to it quite well.

 

[Jollybear]

Your omnipotent God did not give you the strength that He possesses.
Your omniscient God did not give you the ability to know everything s He does.
For you to assume that he endowed you with His level and comprehension of Logic is unwarranted.

He did not give me the power he has, nor the knowledge he has, but, he has given me this BASIC understanding that i have tapped into via using the brain he gave me. So, what im saying is warrented. Im using strong logic that no one is refutting. What does that tell you?

All you are saying is that your very complex, omni-all entity has, somehow, always existed.

We cannot talk about proofs for one view or another. So, we must talk of evidence, inference, logic and philosophy. And all of that points more toward a God who created it all and is eternal.

I don't know. Science does not, currently, know.

Does science deal with proof? Or does it deal with evidence, inference, logic, probabilities? If it dont deal with proof, then yea, it dont know, but if it deals with evidence, inference and philosophy and logic and probabilities, then it does know to a certain degree. Its called beyond reasonable doubt.

What makes lightning? Oh, said the ancients, GodDidIt. Wrong then, wrong now.

Its not wrong now. God created matter and the laws. Hence God created lightning. Lightning is still designed. Its a part of creation. It serves a functional purpose.

ecco:

From a religious standpoint you need:
A highly complex omni-all entity always existing.
-or-
A highly complex omni-all entity poofing itself into existence.​

​

I go with the first one. GOD is eternal. Theres no poofing himself into existence, thats a logical contradiction. Logic 101.

If he poofs himself into existence, then hed already exist in order to poof. See the contradiction? Logi, logic, logic.

So, you are OK with a highly complex Omni-all supernatural entity always existing. That's somehow logical to you. You give no thought to the origin of this highly complex Omni-all supernatural entity so you can avoid the cause of this highly complex Omni-all supernatural entity. It just poofed itself into existence and then it started time.

Uh huh.

Your whole statement defies logic violently.

God being eternal means logically he has no origin. It means he does not poof himself into existence (which is a contradiction).

Eternal means he has no beginning. He has always existed.

Nonsense. Your highly complex Omni-all entity is based on religion and a superstitious belief in the supernatural. It is not based on science and logic.

Nonsense. My highly complex Omni-all entity is based on science, inference, logic, and philosophy and probability.

Would you care to discuss infinite regression when it comes to your god?

Yes, since God is static there is no infinite regression within him. Problem solved with static.

From a scientific standpoint, all we need is energy always existing.

No, from your opinion all you need is energy.

It takes more then unconcious, unintelligent, mindless, non-information energy to create the entire universe.

To say otherwise not only is not science, but on top of it STIFLES science.

From a religious standpoint you need:
A highly complex omni-all entity always existing.
-or-
A highly complex omni-all entity poofing itself into existence.

No, from a science standpoint, we need a highly complex omni-all entity always existing.

The universe to get made, takes information.

 

[Jose Fly]

Why is that basic science?

You really don't understand how if both A and Not A are possible under a scenario, you cannot use the presence or absence of A as a test for that scenario? Seriously?

The reason simplicity dont need a designer is because its simple.

That's nothing but a circular assertion.

Science is not a person, science is done by persons. And depending on the person, some may use analogies to elucidate a point. Thats all im using them for.

Then they are not evidence, nor are they scientific.

So science dont work by evidence, inference and philosophy? Thats all im doing.

No, you have not presented a shred of evidence.

Evolutionists have and do. They use "evidence" inference and philosophy. There is no proof. Do you agree evolutionists use these three things?

First, you changed your statement. Previously you said "evolutionists use logic, inference, and philosophy", but here you've added in evidence. Please try and maintain consistency.

Second, scientists use evidence and draw inferences from that evidence. You OTOH have yet to do anything like that. So far, you've merely made a series of empty assertions, made some analogies, and stated your religious beliefs. That's not science.

No, God is not all powerfull in the way you describe it. God has power over his creation, but when it defies logic, God does not have power. Like creating a rock so big he cannot lift it. That defies logic for an infinite being.

God created the universe out of himself. Himself is SOMETHING, not, nothing. Himself is eternal, infinite energy, conciousness and intelligence.

Again, how did you establish these things to be so? Did you run some scientific tests, or are they just your religious beliefs?

Logic, inference, philosophy and evidence.

What evidence did you collect that led you to conclude that God possesses the characteristics you describe? And how did you collect it?

Michael shermer (science writer, founder of skeptics society), richard dawkins (biologist) and Lawrence Krauss (physicist, cosmologist) im aware have advocated something from nothing.

They are "naturalist" scientists.

Again you've done nothing but make yet another empty assertion. You need to show where those folks have advocated "nothing+chance+time" as you claimed.

You do understand the difference between saying something is so and actually showing it to be so, don't you?

Why cant God create a universe that looks eternal? Because its a logical contradiction. If he creates it, then it BEGINS. Its not eternal. And to make it LOOK eternal would be deceptive. PLUS, it does not even look eternal. To look eternal it have to be static.

There you go again, imposing your religious beliefs onto the scenario. That's not how science works.

Everything ive given you has been evidence, inference, logic and philosophical support for ID.

You really think so? You truly think you've presented a valid, evidence-based scientific case for ID creationism in this thread?

Further, your asserting i have not provided these things, and i have. Assertions are not science.

Your posts in this thread are there for anyone to read, and the fact that they are completely devoid of evidence is very clear.

Good one, but, whats more plausable, something comming from nothing, or God (something) creating something else?

Logically the more plausable is God. Plus, due to DESIGN, adds double plausability. The something that comes from nothing or God, looks designed. You seeing this come together yet?

All you've done is try to explain one mystery (how did the universe begin) by invoking another mystery (God).

Think of it this way....if I said the universe came about via a magical invisible leprechaun, how is that any different than what you're proposing?

Isnt the law of thermodynamics state energy is not created? God is eternal. Since space has a starting point as well, God is infinite.

Again, very circular. What tests did you carry out to determine that God is energy?

It may not be persuasive to you, but it definately is scientific. Logically it is. It does not matter who acceps it. Lay person or profesional scientists or the mainstream. Logic is logic and i know how logic is used. My mind is very inclined to it quite well.

ID creationism was resoundingly rejected by the scientific community over 20 years ago, and was ruled to be a variation of creationism/religion by a federal court. It is not taught in universities or high schools. No private biotech firm utilizes it.

Do you see the point? From a practical, useful standpoint ID creationism is dead. It only persists as a religious belief, the same as young-earth creationism. And the nature of your posts are a very good demonstration of why that is so.

 

[Bird123]

We sure can. All we need to do is read the Bible.
We quickly learn that God created fallible creatures and then blamed them, and all future generations, for their fallibility.

Shortly thereafter we learn that God got upset with His creation turning out badly. He killed (almost) all of them.



So smart that it's hard to imagine how smart the entity that created Him must be.

If you rely on Stories, how can you ever expect to Discover the Real Truth?

In case you do not know, God never gets upset. There is no reason. God knows, given enough education, all God's kiddies will learn to always make the best possible choices. True Intelligence will make the best choices.

Oh yes, God will also never Hate. Do you know why?? Hate is not an Intelligent choice.

Yes, who created God? You must not limit your view to the physical laws of this universe. Quantum physics is showing the possibility of many dimensions. A dimension without time would mean there is no starting point for God's creation. There is no need to be created.

 

[Bird123]

On what do you base this baseless assertion?

Everyone wants to rule the world. Religions are telling people what to do. Society is telling people what to do. Peer pressure is telling people what to do. How many say: Be who you must! It's a part of the plan!

The fight to embrace diversity of all kinds continue. It will take time before it is realized that diversity is a strength.

As I see it, Everyone wants to rule the world, is mankind's greatest problem.

 

[Bird123]

ecco said: ↑​

God's actions like undersea earthquakes and rockslides that kill hundreds of thousands of people?

God's actions like volcanic eruptions that kill hundreds of thousands of people?

Specifically, from which of God's actions can we learn truth?



Is your view wide enough to enable you to answer basic questions like the one I raised?

Is your goal the same as God's? I assume your goal is to have it made, nobody dies, having fun, laughter and joy for eternity. This sounds great, however where would your Intelligence be? No need to think without problems.

Do you want your children to live at home forever with you supplying the got it made? How would your kids turn out? Is it really Intelligent to do this?

One can learn Truth from all of God's actions. There is much more going on than you can imagine. Discovery takes much more work than having it served up for a person to believe or not. Being a couch potato might be a desire, however it will not spawn wisdom, intelligence, knowledge and the Discovery of Real Truth.

Feel free to choose, however do not get upset when adversity shows up at your door pointing you in the direction of Learning and Growing. Perhaps, without that, we would all be couch potatoes.

 

[gnostic]

Everyone wants to rule the world. Religions are telling people what to do. Society is telling people what to do. Peer pressure is telling people what to do. How many say: Be who you must! It's a part of the plan!

The fight to embrace diversity of all kinds continue. It will take time before it is realized that diversity is a strength.

As I see it, Everyone wants to rule the world, is mankind's greatest problem.

But doesn’t God say in Genesis 1 that he made humans to rule the world?

If that’s true, then isn’t the fault lies ultimately with God?

 

[Prometheus85]

Take it easy. Take it slow. No fuss.

First question. Is it okay for me to reject evolution while accepting other tenets of science?

Do u fully understand the nature of evolution as laid out by science?

 

[Earthling]

Do u fully understand the nature of evolution as laid out by science?

 

[Prometheus85]

Sure, why not? Otherwise we assume all scientists (who are individual humans with flaws) are perfect in everything they say, along with there consensus.

The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.

 

[Prometheus85]

David Berlinski is your basis for this argument? This is a guy who says that he is not an advocate of intelligent design but rather claims to be a skeptic on the matter of evolution (bullsh*t). His articles and books are filled with religiously-based creationist arguments. It’s pretty obvious he’s a shill for intelligent design.

 

[ecco]

Your omnipotent God did not give you the strength that He possesses.
Your omniscient God did not give you the ability to know everything s He does.
For you to assume that he endowed you with His level and comprehension of Logic is unwarranted.

He did not give me the power he has, nor the knowledge he has, but, he has given me this BASIC understanding that i have tapped into via using the brain he gave me. So, what im saying is warrented. Im using strong logic that no one is refutting. What does that tell you?

It tells me you are making up stuff with no basis other than to justify your own views.

If He didn't give you His Strength and He didn't give you His Omniscience there is no reason to believe He gave you His level of Logic.

It also demonstrates how poor your actual human level of logic really is.

 

[ecco]

ecco:
What makes lightning? Oh, said the ancients, GodDidIt. Wrong then, wrong now.

Its not wrong now. God created matter and the laws. Hence God created lightning. Lightning is still designed. Its a part of creation. It serves a functional purpose.

Ah, so you are under the same impression as the ancients, that each and every lightning bolt is cast down by God. That explains a lot.

 

[ecco]

Your whole statement defies logic violently.

God being eternal means logically he has no origin. It means he does not poof himself into existence (which is a contradiction).

Eternal means he has no beginning. He has always existed.

Theists:
Every thing has a cause and an origin.
Uh, oh, er, {cough, cough} except my god.

And you really want to talk about logic?

 

[ecco]

No, from a science standpoint, we need a highly complex omni-all entity always existing.

If you believe that, then explain why science and scientists do not agree with you. If you can't, then we must conclude, once again, that you are making stuff up.

 

[ecco]

The universe to get made, takes information.

Another of your unfounded nonsensical assertions.

 

[ecco]

​

We quickly learn that God created fallible creatures and then blamed them, and all future generations, for their fallibility.

Shortly thereafter we learn that God got upset with His creation turning out badly. He killed (almost) all of them.

If you rely on Stories, how can you ever expect to Discover the Real Truth?
In case you do not know, God never gets upset.

Don't you consider the Bible to be the real truth?

5And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.​

Hey, I'm gonna kill everyone and everything!

That sure sounds like the words of someone who is very upset.

 

[ecco]

A dimension without time would mean there is no starting point for God's creation. There is no need to be created.

Riiight. Another one whose unsubstantiated guess/belief/assertion is GodIsUncausedAndAlwaysExisted.

 

[ecco]

Everyone wants to rule the world. Religions are telling people what to do. Society is telling people what to do. Peer pressure is telling people what to do. How many say: Be who you must! It's a part of the plan!

WhattaLottaNonsense.

Where do you get this LottaNonsense from? Maybe you should wear a tin-foil hat to keep these thoughts from creeping in.