The Mystery Thread

[viole]

I have no interest whatsoever in science. The question was intended to establish whether or no one (anyone) could reject the theory of Evolution while accepting other disciplines. In other words if you reject Evolution do you reject science? I know of respected scientists in various fields, including Biology, who reject evolution and accept the teachings of the Bible that I believe.

That is the equivalent of being an astrophysicists who rejects gravitation and believes that planets are pushed by invisible angels in their core. The comparison is almost one to one, with the evidence we have.

The question, of course, who would give him a job. Apart from organizations supporting creationism, applied angeology and similar beliefs.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Honesty requires that you do not discount evidence of or evolution itself simply because it doesn't sound right to you or it doesn't align with your religious beliefs, imho. It is dishonest to pick and choose what scientific evidence you accept.

Oh, I noticed you got an upgrade. Welcome. Next stop: gnostic atheist

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

But, like most thinking people who aren't brainwashed, you CAN reject the non-biblical concepts like abiogenesis.

Which has nothing to do with evolution. Obviously.

By the way. Technically, the Bible teaches abiogenesis. Unless you believe that God, or things like dust, are biological things.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Windwalker]

Heres what im saying: when you got a combination of bias+inferences to data+stupid+some ignorence+some dishonesty+dogmatic assumptions+wanting to fit in with your science peers, this = bull crap results.

So, you dismiss all the scientists, in all the fields of expertise they are both trained and passed qualifications for, as just dishonest and dogmatic. This is pure, dishonesty on your part. It lacks all integrity. And as a Christian, that is considered a sin against God. Since when does faith = dishonesty to yourself?

You need an education about what science is and how it works. No one is suggesting it's "perfect", but it is a far, far, far ways away from just being the nonsense you just made up. Why does evolution scare you so as a Christian, to make you deceive yourself so? What about those Christians who do believe in God, and yet have no problem with evolution like you do? What is the difference between them and you, besides their self-honesty?

This discussion hasnt even lifted barely off the ground yet and already your calling me dishonest and assuming i havent read or looked at stuff i dont agree with.

I'm saying to dismiss all scientists in all fields as all just playing some game of biases and trying to please each other, so utterly lacks in integrity that for you to just seize up that self-deception in order to preserve your ideas about God, and that is precisely what it is, is in fact nothing short of dishonesty. It lacks integrity.

People who do this need to hear it as it really is. It's a lie, hiding yourself from an "inconvenient truth". That is not how one honors faith. That's how one destroys it. That's why you have many becoming atheists, when you ask them to lobotomize themselves in order to "believe" in God.

If i dont agree with something i have reason to, not just volition. I dont pray over computer viruses. But, in the case of spiritual realities i believe thats real.

Most often, people who lack technical knowledge, assume it is all "magic" to begin with. I am a Sr. Engineer who has close to 20 years working with computer technologies, and I tell you a true story from early on to illustrate this point. Listen and see if you hear similarities?

The company I worked for had sent a computer to run rasterization software for a large format printer. This customer would call in with all sorts of flakey, random behaviors with the computer system. After numerous calls to the support desk working with the techs, they decided to send a technician onsite to troubleshoot the issues.

Upon opening the case on the computer, they found taped on to the motherboard, several little metal crosses. The tech asked the customer what these were, and she told him that it was acting badly so she put these on there to help ward off the bad spirits that were causing the issues. Needless to say, the source of the problem was instantly determined!

The tech attempted to explain how that metal laid over the various circuits actually conducts electricity, and that that was what was causing the issues. She doubtless, did not believe him, because what is all the "electricity" stuff he was talking about? Have you ever seen an electron? That's just what "scientists" say to impress each other in their "science" meetings, but they don't really know either about such things. It was just "luck" that taking the crosses off the motherboard fixed the problem.

Sound familiar?

 

[Earthling]

Honesty requires that you do not discount evidence of or evolution itself simply because it doesn't sound right to you or it doesn't align with your religious beliefs, imho. It is dishonest to pick and choose what scientific evidence you accept.

I was taught evolution for 5 years in school. As an unbeliever I discounted the evidence set before me. Here is what I saw. Someone, apparently Darwin, put forth the proposition that we evolved from apes. Though, in fact, evolution was taught in Greek philosophy thousands of years before that. From this supposition any deviation in species was then assumed to be evolution. For example, the pepper moth. I would look at something like that and say, that is obviously no indication of evolution. It's an indication of pollution. This is how evidence works. Just because you say the pepper moth is evidence of evolution doesn't make it so. It's easy to say you have "mountains of evidence for evolution" when all you have is nothing.

The only reason the atheists cling so desperately to evolution is because they think that it means there is no god. Which is what they want to believe. That isn't so with me.

 

[Woberts]

The company I worked for had sent a computer to run rasterization software for a large format printer. This customer would call in with all sorts of flakey, random behaviors with the computer system. After numerous calls to the support desk working with the techs, they decided to send a technician onsite to troubleshoot the issues.

Upon opening the case on the computer, they found taped on to the motherboard, several little metal crosses. The tech asked the customer what these were, and she told him that it was acting badly so she put these on there to help ward off the bad spirits that were causing the issues. Needless to say, the source of the problem was instantly determined!

The tech attempted to explain how that metal laid over the various circuits actually conducts electricity, and that that was what was causing the issues. She doubtless, did not believe him, because what is all the "electricity" stuff he was talking about? Have you ever seen an electron? That's just what "scientists" say to impress each other in their "science" meetings, but they don't really know either about such things. It was just "luck" that taking the crosses off the motherboard fixed the problem.

Alright, that story was pretty funny, I'll admit.

 

[Earthling]

Excuse me? Why is it naive to assume people know basics of how personal decision making intersects with social norms when folks learn this as adolescents (or younger)?

Then what context was I asking the question of acceptance?

 

[Earthling]

Not if you want to be intellectually consistent. The scientific method that enables us to harness electrons so we can communicate on this cite is the exact same scientific method that has determines the legitimacy of the ToE. You can't accept one because it's convenient for you and reject the other because it conflicts with your theological claims.

I rejected evolution long before I had any theological claims.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I was taught evolution for 5 years in school. As an unbeliever I discounted the evidence set before me. Here is what I saw. Someone, apparently Darwin, put forth the proposition that we evolved from apes. Though, in fact, evolution was taught in Greek philosophy thousands of years before that.

Erm, not quite. While it's true the concept of evolution has existed for a long time, Darwin wasn't the first to "put forth" the proposition that humans and apes share common ancestry - he was the person who finally identified the mechanism which produced evolutionary change; natural selection.

From this supposition any deviation in species was then assumed to be evolution. For example, the pepper moth. I would look at something like that and say, that is obviously no indication of evolution. It's an indication of pollution.

This doesn't make any sense. Evolution is the process by which populations of organisms change over time. It doesn't matter what is the specific cause of that change, it's still an evolutionary change. Peppered moths are an example of a population of moths who, due to mutation and natural selection, changed over time.

This is how evidence works. Just because you say the pepper moth is evidence of evolution doesn't make it so.

Peppered moths are an EXAMPLE of evolution. What you're saying here is akin to saying that words aren't evidence of language.

It's easy to say you have "mountains of evidence for evolution" when all you have is nothing.

It's especially easy in some cases, such as evolution, where you do actually have literal mountains of evidence.

The only reason the atheists cling so desperately to evolution is because they think that it means there is no god. Which is what they want to believe. That isn't so with me.

Unfortunately, you've just utterly destroyed your credibility.

I have never, not even once, met an atheist who says God cannot exist if evolution is true. It is ONLY EVER theists who say that. In fact, most people I know who accept evolutionary theory take great pains to explain that theory doesn't indicate any such thing - regardless of whether those people are theists or atheists. This argument is demonstrably false, even from a cursory glance at this forum.

 

[Earthling]

Is one rejecting multiplicative maths if she accepts that 2*2 = 4 but rejects 2*3=6?

I have no idea. You'll have to ask someone else that question.

 

[Windwalker]

Alright, that story was pretty funny, I'll admit.

What's so funny, is that it's absolutely true. That really happened. To illustrate how that those who lack technical knowledge, or scientific knowledge, will always see it as "magic" (it's a developmental thing, actually), back when I was in an electronics training program one of the instructors "explained" how all these electronic components on the circuit board work.

He explained to us how, "These components all work by the magic smoke they put inside them at the factory. You can demonstrate this by applying a voltage higher than what is recommended on them. When you do this, you will actually see the magic smoke release from inside of them, after which the component no longer works."

Now, that is how Creationism reasons. It's magical reasoning. It's nothing more than that. It's pre-scientific thought.

 

[Windwalker]

I have no idea. You'll have to ask someone else that question.

I have an idea. Yes, they are being inconsistent in choosing which math formula they like based purely on whatever personal bias overrides reason in that case. It has nothing to do with the math being wrong. It has to do with an idiosyncrasy of their personality that defies logic and reason.

My real question is though, what is the second part of your question for this thread? Did you ask it yet?

 

[sayak83]

If im delusional, i certainly dont know it, for if i did, then id no longer be delusional.

You said you understand it, tell me then?

Obviously. No person, in the grip of false views know that they are delusional.
Follow my post series here,
What is Evolution?

 

[Earthling]

Erm, not quite. While it's true the concept of evolution has existed for a long time, Darwin wasn't the first to "put forth" the proposition that humans and apes share common ancestry - he was the person who finally identified the mechanism which produced evolutionary change; natural selection.

Okay. Thanks for that clarification.

This doesn't make any sense. Evolution is the process by which populations of organisms change over time. It doesn't matter what is the specific cause of that change, it's still an evolutionary change. Peppered moths are an example of a population of moths who, due to mutation and natural selection, changed over time.

Peppered moths are an EXAMPLE of evolution. What you're saying here is akin to saying that words aren't evidence of language.

Then calling an advantage in environment as it changes evolution is evidence of evolution, and so how is evolution contrary to the Bible BECAUSE people here keep telling me I can't rationally reject evolution because it is contrary to my religious beliefs. It has nothing to do with my religious beliefs.

Get it?

It's especially easy in some cases, such as evolution, where you do actually have literal mountains of evidence.

Subjective.

Unfortunately, you've just utterly destroyed your credibility.

OH NO! Everything's changed now! How will I ever get published on another Atheist Religious Forum??!!

I have never, not even once, met an atheist who says God cannot exist if evolution is true. It is ONLY EVER theists who say that. In fact, most people I know who accept evolutionary theory take great pains to explain that theory doesn't indicate any such thing - regardless of whether those people are theists or atheists. This argument is demonstrably false, even from a cursory glance at this forum.

Maybe we'll get to that.

 

[Earthling]

I have an idea. Yes, they are being inconsistent in choosing which math formula they like based purely on whatever personal bias overrides reason in that case. It has nothing to do with the math being wrong. It has to do with an idiosyncrasy of their personality that defies logic and reason.

My real question is though, what is the second part of your question for this thread? Did you ask it yet?

Not yet. Any suggestions?

 

[Jose Fly]

It's easy to say you have "mountains of evidence for evolution" when all you have is nothing.

I gotta ask.....do you truly believe there's absolutely no evidence at all for evolution? If so, how then do you explain the fact that the scientific community has had the opposite view for well over a century? Are they just bad at their jobs? Is it the biggest conspiracy in history? Are they under a magic spell?

The only reason the atheists cling so desperately to evolution is because they think that it means there is no god. Which is what they want to believe. That isn't so with me.

How do you explain all the non-atheists who are just fine with evolution?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I was taught evolution for 5 years in school. As an unbeliever I discounted the evidence set before me. Here is what I saw. Someone, apparently Darwin, put forth the proposition that we evolved from apes. Though, in fact, evolution was taught in Greek philosophy thousands of years before that. From this supposition any deviation in species was then assumed to be evolution. For example, the pepper moth. I would look at something like that and say, that is obviously no indication of evolution. It's an indication of pollution. This is how evidence works. Just because you say the pepper moth is evidence of evolution doesn't make it so. It's easy to say you have "mountains of evidence for evolution" when all you have is nothing.

The only reason the atheists cling so desperately to evolution is because they think that it means there is no god. Which is what they want to believe. That isn't so with me.

So you failed or your teacher's failed for five years. Amazing that you took the same class that many times and could not learn the basics.

You seriously need to restart your science education since you do not even understand the basics of how people work in the sciences. Your calling the peppered moth "pollution" alone tells us that you could not grasp a very simple idea. Second, you do not seem to realize that like it or not you are an ape. I assume that you accept the fact that you are a mammal. Why do you have a problem with the fact that you are an ape?

And sadly you do not even understand the concept of evidence. Of course if you do not understand what is and what is not evidence you will reject it. If you were honest and informed you could not deny the fact that there are mountains of evidence for the theory of evolution.

 

[Earthling]

I gotta ask.....do you truly believe there's absolutely no evidence at all for evolution?

If so, how then do you explain the fact that the scientific community has had the opposite view for well over a century? Are they just bad at their jobs? Is it the biggest conspiracy in history? Are they under a magic spell?


How do you explain all the non-atheists who are just fine with evolution?

I used to like to watch nature documentaries. Once I was watching an ABC documentary on the Amazon river and a respected Zoologist who specialized in Ichthyology went there to study the local's knowledge on the subject. He sees this fish eating nuts that fell into the river and he says "That bump on his head evolved there to crack open the nuts." Or something like that, it was a long time ago.

That's evidence for evolution.

I have been shown pictures of the skulls of apes lined up with the skull of a human. Evidence for evolution. The pepper moth I've mentioned before. All sorts of examples that were thought to be "evidence for evolution" that were fraudulent.

There's lots of evidence for evolution! Tons and tons of it. You know what though? When a creationist says to me that the trees and grass etc. are evidence of God I say - no. They are evidence of trees and grass.

 

[Jose Fly]

I used to like to watch nature documentaries. Once I was watching an ABC documentary on the Amazon river and a respected Zoologist who specialized in Ichthyology went there to study the local's knowledge on the subject. He sees this fish eating nuts that fell into the river and he says "That bump on his head evolved there to crack open the nuts." Or something like that, it was a long time ago.

That's evidence for evolution.

I have been shown pictures of the skulls of apes lined up with the skull of a human. Evidence for evolution. The pepper moth I've mentioned before. All sorts of examples that were thought to be "evidence for evolution" that were fraudulent.

There's lots of evidence for evolution! Tons and tons of it. You know what though? When a creationist says to me that the trees and grass etc. are evidence of God I say - no. They are evidence of trees and grass.

Um......you didn't answer the questions I asked at all. Is there a reason?

 

[Earthling]

So you failed or your teacher's failed for five years. Amazing that you took the same class that many times and could not learn the basics.

I passed the class. I told them what I knew they wanted to hear. I did the same with the nonsense they spouted as American and World history.

You seriously need to restart your science education since you do not even understand the basics of how people work in the sciences. Your calling the peppered moth "pollution" alone tells us that you could not grasp a very simple idea. Second, you do not seem to realize that like it or not you are an ape. I assume that you accept the fact that you are a mammal. Why do you have a problem with the fact that you are an ape?

And sadly you do not even understand the concept of evidence. Of course if you do not understand what is and what is not evidence you will reject it. If you were honest and informed you could not deny the fact that there are mountains of evidence for the theory of evolution.

Blah, Blah, Blah. You will continue insisting upon your propaganda only until I say I believe in the nonsense. Then, like magic I will be ignorant no more.

I do wish I had time to learn it like I did the Bible, but, I don't. I'm sure you don't want to take the time to learn the Bible which you think is nonsense, so be easy on me, baby, there ain't nothin' in here worth stealing.