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The myth of 1%

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
The intent of life to continue, is what I compared to instinct when I first posted in this mess.

AS usual, you need someone else to tell you and why you need something new to be recognized by others before you even consider the premise

Life is the evidence. Instinct is a premise debated as being the cause of the intent.

Random is the most common term used for evolving changes. I liken it to the big E's idea of 'god dont play dice'

Do you observe nature and the natural evidence as relevant?

Understanding Natural Selection: Essential Concepts and Common Misconceptions​


Evolution: Education and Outreach volume 2, pages156–175 (2009)

i did not finish the paper to find the exact words but dang it was leaning towards my scope far more than you knew.

Then i found this "Every living organism wants to survive and be in existence."

My line is:
Life: intends to continue.

According to de Vries' mutation theory, living organisms can develop changes to their genes that greatly alter the organism. These changes are passed down to the next generation, and lead to the development of new species. Once a new species has evolved, it becomes fixed and stops changing

Now that is just about as goofy vegan.

I haven't written a quality paper with peer review citations to show you. I know but you have helped me address a couple new angles to overcome.

So far, you have not done anything but remind me why I stepped away from the 'community'.


Thanks for the cool term.
Thank you for providing that reference. It is unfortunate for you that it says the opposite of what you were claiming. As well, it is unfortunate that you didn't finish it and read it again. You will find much there that would displace your misconceptions.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is the definition of select. nothing to debate.



The straw is what you are standing on

The life is changing with intent to survive (continue living). Nature is not selecting.
Consider migrations, the lives move. Nature does not tell them to.

Not the topic, that is a straw man claim.

now your moving the goal post. Nature does not make the genes change, the life changes its genes to enable the changes.

You're lost in your temper and not observing what is changing and evolving.

Exactly, the fallacy is that nature is 'selecting' what survives. That's the joke. Not that evolution is wrong but the comprehension that you are using is the joke.

Again, straw man. You keep changing your argument and method because you choose NOT to just be fair.

What is correct, is 'LIFE: intends to continue'. That is what drives evolution. The lives of nature evolve to survive!

nature is not selecting anything! I am beginning to think that the reason Darwin used the term is to allow for the religious flavors to accept an oversight. I find that as stupid as a god giving commandments.

Be fair. No need to argue or try to condemn me as incapable or ignorant.
You seem to think that the term "strawman" is some sort of magical refutation. You appear to be using the term incorrectly. Pick out one of your usages of that accusation and show how he used a strawman.

I need to remind you and other users of logical fallacies that if you accuse others of using them you must be ready to defend that charge. I will sometimes use those terms and i will be more than happy to show the person that I am arguing with how they used a strawman.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
It just seems like another version of a very old, pointless game. It would be more efficient just to state the denial of science and get it over with.
But to do that would require a degree of precision of thought that is not evident in this poster. The modus operandi seems to be, rather, deliberate woolliness in order to give the impression that the notions vaguely hinted at are in some way scientific, or at least consistent with science.

It’s a sort of Eastern mystical woo, by the look of it.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
you mean so what that chimps don't build hospitals? I guess their genetics didn't warrant a need for it. :)
It has nothing to do with genetics.
You're being obtuse. I'm still on the fence if it is deliberate or not...

Your "argument" is as ridiculous as saying that humans 500 years ago weren't building smarthpones.
A homo sapiens of 50.000 years ago wasn't "less intelligent" then a homo sapiens today.
If you would be able to travel back in time 50k years and kidnap a newborn baby and raise it today, you wouldn't notice any difference. That kid would grow up and learn how to read, write, build tools, use tools, go to college and become a nasa engineer just like the rest of us.

We didn't undergo any genetic change when we developed writing.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Actually I don't think it was genetics as if implanted by the process of evolution. Nobody really knows when writing actually began. That's what I am understanding at this moment. But history does show it's only about 4,000 years old or so there are proofs of it. This makes one wonder about the 200,000 year history supposedly for homo sapiens. I know the argument some put forth -- well, homo sapiens didn't need to invent writing because they were not in cities for 195,000 years or something like that. (lol) You think I believe that it took 195,000 for homo sapiens to make cities? c/mon let's be a little reasonable. But if not -- if that's what you think, that's what you think.
IOW, your "argument" here is nothing but an argument from incredulity.

IE, "my evidence against the proposition, is that I don't believe it".

Great argument, you got there.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I couldn't find the quote about "Every living organism wants to survive and be in existence." No idea where it was mined from.
I found it in this article: What makes you alive, What is consciousness, and Why life wants to survive?

"The will to survive of living organisms brought natural selection, and the entire evolution happened to date. If cells didn’t have had that will to survive, they wouldn’t have survived; life would not be in existence as we know it. Every living organism wants to survive and be in existence. Some trees are unnecessarily tall because they’ve been competing for sunlight with each other. We’ve adopted the principle of least effort because it saves energy, our laziness makes us find more efficient ways."

We've seen the influence of this kind of thinking on these threads recently. Our Egyptologist friend who claims that all life is conscious and who also rejects the evolutionary mechanism proposed says almost the same things in almost the same way. This sounds like life force woo to me, as if life wills itself into existence or is willed into existence under the influence of some animating principle that brings matter to life.
What is correct, is 'LIFE: intends to continue'.
You've made that claim. Taken literally, it has been rejected. Intention is a quality found only in conscious animals. To my knowledge, you have never attempted to falsify that, just to disregard it and repeat yourself.

If you have some metaphorical understanding in mind, that's not interesting.
nature is not selecting anything!
Once again, if one means literally, then you are correct, but your objection trivial. Unconscious objects don't select any more than they intend. Unconscious nature selecting is it following physical law passively, as when nature "selects" whether water will be vapor, liquid, or ice.
Planning is the wrong word
Now you're getting it. Unconscious things don't intend, select, or plan.
Trees grow to the sunlight (up) for the same pursuit, to survive.
Trees may have a purpose for those wanting shade, fruit, or lumber, but they have no purpose of their own - also a consequence of unconsciousness. Purpose exists only in conscious minds and informs how they plan, intend, and select.
What makes them evolve, the intent to survive. Living things do appear to have a survival instinct
What makes them evolve are the laws of physics in a setting where life if possible.
I know, until others accept the scope of comprehending that living systems intend to survive, you choose not to.
You've never indicated why you consider that idea meaningful. How does agreeing with you change anything for the better for those who don't? How has that idea served you besides getting you into this fruitless (for you) discussion?
Yes weather is environmental.
And also passively and unconsciously "selected" according to the laws of physics and ambient conditions on earth.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You seem to think that the term "strawman" is some sort of magical refutation. You appear to be using the term incorrectly. Pick out one of your usages of that accusation and show how he used a strawman.

I need to remind you and other users of logical fallacies that if you accuse others of using them you must be ready to defend that charge. I will sometimes use those terms and i will be more than happy to show the person that I am arguing with how they used a strawman.
That is a good point, because if someone disagrees with another, he should be ready and willing to provide reason. Insted of saying things, no, you're wrong, or you need education, etc. Things like that, right?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The only "misleading" thing here, is your a priori dogmatic beliefs.

In another post, you literally acknowledged that you start from your dogmatic faith based beliefs and literally said that no evidence would sway you from it.
So why are you even trying to argue here?
I'm not sure what you mean by dogmatic because there are variances in understanding and wording. I did not say my faith is dogmatic, you did, and therefore might want to define what you mean by that. I will say that whatever scientific posits stemming from what is considered as evidence by some for their theory is in opposition to what I BELIEVE the Bible says (because not everyone believes the same things from their interpretation of the Bible) I do not accept a statement opposing what the Bible says...thank you for your opinion but as I explained above, it would be necessary for you to explain what you mean by saying my "dogmatic" beliefs and why you say it's the "only misleading thing here." Thank you.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The only "misleading" thing here, is your a priori dogmatic beliefs.

In another post, you literally acknowledged that you start from your dogmatic faith based beliefs and literally said that no evidence would sway you from it.
So why are you even trying to argue here?
Furrthermore, when I was in school (as an example) there were questions of very important tests about evolution. And I believed in the theory of evolution at the time since I did not know anything showing the theory may not be true. Those particular theories changed as the years wore on, and even now theories change by scientists. So what's accepted today by scientists and their followers may not be accepted tomorrow. :)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not sure what you mean by dogmatic because there are variances in understanding and wording.
Why not begin with the standard meaning? Dogma is a set of beliefs taught uncritically, which is to say, using indoctrination (assertion without evidenced argument), which is also to say that they are taught dogmatically. It is now your dogma, and you promulgate it the same way - unevidenced assertions, incredulity fallacies, and the like.
I did not say my faith is dogmatic, you did, and therefore might want to define what you mean by that.
This is you saying that your beliefs are dogma and that you believe them dogmatically without using those words. You consider your beliefs incontrovertibly true:

"I will say that whatever scientific posits stemming from what is considered as evidence by some for their theory is in opposition to what I BELIEVE the Bible says (because not everyone believes the same things from their interpretation of the Bible) I do not accept a statement opposing what the Bible says."

You hint at scientific curiosity and flexibility, but you are neither of those. You are immune to any evidence or argument that contradicts the dogma you have accepted. The other thing you do is allude that you are qualified to assess the evidence and theory you reject, as when you say that you aren't convinced. That's meaningful when an authoritative source is unconvinced, but not when a creationist who is similarly implying that his opinion is qualified is unconvinced.

You have a more friendly and pleasant style of creation apologetics than many we deal with here, but your way of processing information - through a faith-based confirmation bias - is the same as the others. You hold your dogmatic beliefs dogmatically.
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why not begin with the standard meaning? Dogma is a set of beliefs taught uncritically, which is to say, using indoctrination (assertion without evidenced argument).

This is you saying that your beliefs are dogma and that you believe them dogmatically without using those words. You consider your beliefs incontrovertibly true:

"I will say that whatever scientific posits stemming from what is considered as evidence by some for their theory is in opposition to what I BELIEVE the Bible says (because not everyone believes the same things from their interpretation of the Bible) I do not accept a statement opposing what the Bible says."

You hint at scientific curiosity and flexibility, but you are neither of those. You are immune to any evidence or argument that contradicts the dogma you have accepted. The other thing you do is allude that you are qualified to assess the evidence and theory you reject, as when you say that you aren't convinced. That's meaningful when an authoritative source is unconvinced, but not when a creationist who is similarly suggesting that his opinion as qualified is unconvinced.

You have a more friendly and pleasant style of creation apologetics than many we deal with here, but your way of processing information - through a faith-based confirmation bias - is the same as the others. You hold your dogmatic beliefs dogmatically.
First of all, there are statements in the Bible which can be interpreted in different ways, thus some statements are not dogmatically interpreted by everyone. I state that I take vaccines, I appreciate fire extinguishers which I am pretty sure scientific endeavors helped develop. I have questioned rightfully imo the accuracy of dating processes of science among other things. Yes, my faith in God supersedes anything science wants to declare in opposition to what the Bible says. Romans 3:4 - "Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”
I have found distinct problems with the theory of evolution as I became a believer in God and his word the Bible.
Of course there are no videos showing these supposed tiny incremental genetic changes eventually leading to a different organism or animal. I realize the argument is that it took a long, long time to change, etc. But there really is no evidence beyond thought and what is read by scientists in fossils. although the conclusions can change over time.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is a good point, because if someone disagrees with another, he should be ready and willing to provide reason. Insted of saying things, no, you're wrong, or you need education, etc. Things like that, right?
That depends. If the person being addressed constantly demonstrates ignorance than no, there is nothing wrong with that especially if a remedy is offered.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
And I believed in the theory of evolution at the time since I did not know anything showing the theory may not be true.
And you still don't.

Those particular theories changed as the years wore on, and even now theories change by scientists. So what's accepted today by scientists and their followers may not be accepted tomorrow. :)
Theories do change (that's why they are far more rational than blind faith) but some things have so much evidence that they become beyond reasonable doubt. The basics of the theory of evolution is one example.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
there are statements in the Bible which can be interpreted in different ways, thus some statements are not dogmatically interpreted by everyone
Basic Christian dogma is that an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god is the only god, that it created the world including man who alone is created in God's image and possesses an immortal soul, that consciousness survives death, that man is sinful and in need of redemption and salvation, which was made possible by the crucifixion of the now-risen Christ for those who believe that by faith, and perdition for the rest.

Do you accept that this is true? If so, you have accepted and assimilated Christian dogma. Most likely, you didn't get these ideas directly from scripture, but rather, we taught them orally by parents or Sunday school teachers or clergy.
Yes, my faith in God supersedes anything science wants to declare in opposition to what the Bible says.
That's what makes your beliefs dogmatic. They're faith-based, acquired through repetition without evidenced argument (indoctrination), and believed uncritically even in the face of contradictory evidence.
there really is no evidence beyond thought and what is read by scientists in fossils
None for you, perhaps. I've already explained the problem with you offering your opinions as meaningful, or that because you find something unbelievable, others should reconsider their positions. You are not an authoritative source. You haven't learned the science or the principles of critical thought. I understand that you don't consider them important, but that's what invalidates your opinions for those who have learned what you have not.
I have found distinct problems with the theory of evolution as I became a believer in God and his word the Bible.
Of course you did. And had you not accepted that dogma as fact, you wouldn't have any problem with the science. That's how confirmation bias works. Accept a belief a priori on faith and THEN examine the evidence in the light of that belief now held dogmatically.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Basic Christian dogma is that an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god is the only god, that it created the world including man who alone is created in God's image and possesses an immortal soul, that consciousness survives death, that man is sinful and in need of redemption and salvation, which was made possible by the crucifixion of the now-risen Christ for those who believe that by faith, and perdition for the rest.

Do you accept that this is true? If so, you have accepted and assimilated Christian dogma. Most likely, you didn't get these ideas directly from scripture, but rather, we taught them orally by parents or Sunday school teachers or clergy.

That's what makes your beliefs dogmatic. They're faith-based, acquired through repetition without evidenced argument (indoctrination), and believed uncritically even in the face of contradictory evidence.

None for you, perhaps. I've already explained the problem with you offering your opinions as meaningful, or that because you find something unbelievable, others should reconsider their positions. You are not an authoritative source. You haven't learned the science or the principles of critical thought. I understand that you don't consider them important, but that's what invalidates your opinions for those who have learned what you have not.

Of course you did. And had you not accepted that dogma as fact, you wouldn't have any problem with the science. That's how confirmation bias works. Accept a belief a priori on faith and THEN examine the evidence in the light of that belief now held dogmatically.
I believe that God decides what He will look at and He is not looking at everything that happens all the time. Many people believe that God sees and knows everything, every detail, in advance. One example of this is in the garden of Eden. People will argue that God knew that Adam and Eve would partake of the forbidden fruit. But the Bible does not bear that presumption out. He gave them a choice. To say he knew what they would choose befordhand is making the situation very difficult to understand. in light of what He was saying. I do not ascribe to the viewpoint that God knew Adam and Eve would eat from the tree He told them not to eat from.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Furrthermore, when I was in school (as an example) there were questions of very important tests about evolution. And I believed in the theory of evolution at the time since I did not know anything showing the theory may not be true. Those particular theories changed as the years wore on, and even now theories change by scientists. So what's accepted today by scientists and their followers may not be accepted tomorrow. :)
The basic principles underlying the theory have not changed. Details have been added.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I believe that God decides what He will look at and He is not looking at everything that happens all the time. Many people believe that God sees and knows everything, every detail, in advance. One example of this is in the garden of Eden. People will argue that God knew that Adam and Eve would partake of the forbidden fruit. But the Bible does not bear that presumption out. He gave them a choice. To say he knew what they would choose befordhand is making the situation very difficult to understand. in light of what He was saying. I do not ascribe to the viewpoint that God knew Adam and Eve would eat from the tree He told them not to eat from.
OK, lets say that God turned off his omniscience for a while. Are you saying now that he could not reason at all and see who was to blame? He still screwed the pooch.He made Adam and Eve without the knowledge of good and evil according to the myth. God created the serpent and allowed him into the garden:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made.

He was obviously more crafty than Adam and Eve. If God didn't set them up to fail on purpose then he still so incredibly incompetent that the blame was his.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
OK, lets say that God turned off his omniscience for a while. Are you saying now that he could not reason at all and see who was to blame? He still screwed the pooch.He made Adam and Eve without the knowledge of good and evil according to the myth. God created the serpent and allowed him into the garden:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made.

He was obviously more crafty than Adam and Eve. If God didn't set them up to fail on purpose then he still so incredibly incompetent that the blame was his.
It is not a given that Adam would have succumbed to Eve's invitation. That is why Jesus was the equvalent of Adam, not Eve. Eve was deceived the Bible says. Adam was not. He willfuilly chose to eat the fruit, knowing he would not be equal to God, but it seems reasonable to me that he loved Eve so much that he chose death rather than go on without her.
 
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