The need for a grand purpose/meaning

[Sunstone]

A "grand purpose/meaning" is like a drug. You don't need one until you get addicted to thinking you have one, and then you "need" one.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Such people like me will be miserable without the belief in the eternal blissful afterlife.

This, to me, seems just as bizarre as you finding the lack of eternal life odd. I hardly survived birth, I've been suicidal, and I see life as a precious gift to treasure, enjoy, and cherish. I don't need the promise of an afterlife to enjoy and savor this life.

 

[idav]

However, there are some people who are not like that at all and are fine with the idea of forever remaining dead.

I haven't seen anyone say they are fine with it, rather they just accept as fact as your are doing. Someone saying it is a fact doesn't mean they like it. Unless the someone is unstable and hates life I don't see people being eager to become worm food.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

This, to me, seems just as bizarre as you finding the lack of eternal life odd. I hardly survived birth, I've been suicidal, and I see life as a precious gift to treasure, enjoy, and cherish. I don't need the promise of an afterlife to enjoy and savor this life.

You are not concerned with yourself. You dying does not matter to you. It is life itself that matters to you. But if it was instead you who mattered to yourself (your very existence), then the idea of you no longer existing would devastate you. You would then need belief in the eternal blissful afterlife to give your life happiness and meaning.

 

[Riverwolf]

You are not concerned with yourself. You dying does not matter to you. It is life itself that matters to you. But if it was instead you who mattered to yourself (your very existence), then the idea of you no longer existing would devastate you. You would then need belief in the eternal blissful afterlife to give your life happiness and meaning.

How does something that can never be lost have value? It can't be lost, and so doesn't need to be protected or cherished. It'll be there regardless.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

How does something that can never be lost have value? It can't be lost, and so doesn't need to be protected or cherished. It'll be there regardless.

If I fell in love with someone, then I would find myself saying:

"We will be eternal together. We will love each other forever and our love will never die. We will always be together forever. Our love for each other will never grow tired."

I would not find myself saying:

"Let's just have this relationship for a little while and value/treasure it until I grow tired of it. Then we can just remain dead."

 

[Riverwolf]

If I fell in love with someone, then I would find myself saying:

"We will be eternal together. We will love each other forever and our love will never die. We will always be together forever. Our love for each other will never grow tired."

I would not find myself saying:

"Let's just have this relationship for a little while and value/treasure it until I grow tired of it. Then we can just remain dead."

To be honest, that former one doesn't sound like a very healthy relationship. Sounds rather co-dependent, in fact.

Besides, why do you assume those are the only two options?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

To be honest, that former one doesn't sound like a very healthy relationship. Sounds rather co-dependent, in fact.

Besides, why do you assume those are the only two options?

I would choose the eternal relationship over any other option. Our brains are just hardwired for survival. They just want to ensure our survival. They never want us to die.

 

[Riverwolf]

I would choose the eternal relationship over any other option. Our brains are just hardwired for survival. They just want to ensure our survival. They never want us to die.

Exactly. We don't WANT to die.

But if we really did live forever, then death would have no consequence, and thus preserving our lives wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But if it was instead you who mattered to yourself (your very existence), then the idea of you no longer existing would devastate you.

That isn't it at all. I've made peace with the fact that one day I will die. What more can I have other than assumptions on what, if anything, comes after that? That doesn't mean I want to die, or that I don't value life, it just means that I accept that one day I will die, and I'd rather die peacefully and having cherished this life than miserably trying to foolishly hold onto to what can no longer be. When we are, death is not, and when death is, we are not. If you fear death, then why not fear your birth, which makes your death inevitable? Even when I'm depressed, it is comforting to know that I have this wonderful gift that didn't have to be, and could have been taken from me earlier. Is not just being alive plenty enough of a reason to enjoy life?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

That isn't it at all. I've made peace with the fact that one day I will die. What more can I have other than assumptions on what, if anything, comes after that? That doesn't mean I want to die, or that I don't value life, it just means that I accept that one day I will die, and I'd rather die peacefully and having cherished this life than miserably trying to foolishly hold onto to what can no longer be. When we are, death is not, and when death is, we are not. If you fear death, then why not fear your birth, which makes your death inevitable? Even when I'm depressed, it is comforting to know that I have this wonderful gift that didn't have to be, and could have been taken from me earlier. Is not just being alive plenty enough of a reason to enjoy life?

No, it is not. The idea of forever remaining dead is the absolute worst thing that prevents me from enjoying, cherishing, and finding meaning in this life no matter how hard I try to.

 

[sayak83]

I see an absolute need for this. I see an absolute need for us to be immortal souls that can live in eternal bliss in the afterlife. Some people would say there is no need for that and the life we have here instead is all we need. I don't see it that way.

If we are nothing more than life forms that are just here to live and forever perish, then I see no reason to have a family or to cherish this life if all we are is just life forms that live and forever perish. If this is all we are, then we as human beings were better off having never been born in the first place. This life and this entire universe was better off having never come into being. This being the one and only life I will ever have is not any reason at all to me to cherish it and make the best of it.

To me, a person who is able to cherish this life and make the best of it in the absence of this grand purpose/meaning is nothing more than a simple minded animal. Nothing more than a simple minded creature that goes about its daily life that says:

"Welp, I will enjoy and cherish this life while it lasts. When I die, I die and that is it."

That, to me, is a simple minded animal not concerned with any grand purpose/meaning. But as for me, I am nothing like that. I am on a much higher level than that. I am able to see the big picture for what it is (the grand scheme of things). That being, if this is all we are as human beings, then there is no reason for any of it.

This existence is just nonsense and to carry on with your life and have reason to cherish and enjoy this life is just absurd nonsense like that of a simple minded animal and nothing more.

You do not have wisdom and your attachment and thirst for grand purposes probably leads to dissatisfaction and suffering.

An animal is indeed simple-minded, as it does not know that it will die and hence lives without foresight. You are in the middle, who knows he will die but cannot accept it and flounders around for any hope or a dream that will tell him that actually he won't. But the final stage is to know that one will cease to exist just as one came into existence and be content in that understanding, that life moments are inherently meaningful and do not require eternal continual renewal to give them that meaning, to also understand that all conscious moments are continuous rebirths and redeaths.. so that every moment you die and another "you" takes its place with a mere memory of the old you..until there is no rebirth of the ego at the end of a life. Only living gives life meaning, if one does not live no eternity, no purpose however attractive will suffice. And if one lives, then even one single moment is self-sufficient for the momentary self that has it and experiences it before dying without recurrence.

I see a world in flux. Millions of life forms are being born, living and dying at every instant. A storm of experiences (from the humble insect to the reflecting humans) buffet this world, reverberating with emotions and awareness, joys and desires, pains and fears. Below that flux is the incessant flux matter and energy that sustains this symphonus choir and extends throughout the universe and beyond in far places. This is Reality, an action, a verb..a ever changing, ever dying and ever renewing creative flux woven in chaos and structure. I am a tongue of flame in this vast spread of creative conflagration, rising and falling in a few moments. How can I be otherwise?

 

[buddhist]

I see an absolute need for this. I see an absolute need for us to be immortal souls that can live in eternal bliss in the afterlife.

This "need" for eternal bliss/eternal life is only a symptom of a deeper problem - suffering itself.

Because we suffer, we imagine we can solve that suffering by achieving different goals such as eternal bliss or life.

Why not address the problem of suffering itself instead, as Lord Buddha taught? Why paint the leaves green when we can dig up the rotten root?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, it is not. The idea of forever remaining dead is the absolute worst thing that prevents me from enjoying, cherishing, and finding meaning in this life no matter how hard I try to.

But why? There must be some deeper reason that makes you feel so. Why should nihilism be the only thing you can accept if you accept non-existence? It does seem as though you are suffering in some deep way if you are trying to mentally shield yourself from reality.

An animal is indeed simple-minded, as it does not know that it will die and hence lives without foresight.

We are animals, we know we die, and I highly doubt we are the only animals aware of our mortality. For so long we have pretended that other animals do not have the characteristics and traits we do, but we are finding out just how hopelessly wrong we were about that.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

But why? There must be some deeper reason that makes you feel so. Why should nihilism be the only thing you can accept if you accept non-existence? It does seem as though you are suffering in some deep way if you are trying to mentally shield yourself from reality.

Because, to me, it is not life itself that matters. What matters is that I live forever and am forever happy. It is just simply the worst thing to me for me to forever cease to exist.

 

[idav]

Because, to me, it is not life itself that matters. What matters is that a person lives forever and is forever happy. It is just simply the worst thing to me for a person to forever cease to exist.

Its just as terrible when a person loses their memories, might as well be as if they didn't go through the years of experience. Is memory and experience what you want preserved, the brain is very fragile as far as thats concerned.

Far as physics is concerned I think data is pretty solid.

 

[sayak83]

We are animals, we know we die, and I highly doubt we are the only animals aware of our mortality. For so long we have pretended that other animals do not have the characteristics and traits we do, but we are finding out just how hopelessly wrong we were about that.

I agree with you. But in that case I would have to add footnotes in a forum post. Too much work. But as an olive branch, here is something you ought to like.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160621-do-bees-dream

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Because, to me, it is not life itself that matters.

You are trying to say others do not value life, but here you are saying that life itself does not matter.

What matters is that I live forever and am forever happy. It is just simply the worst thing to me for me to forever cease to exist.

There are far worst things that can happen than death. My grandmother suffered with Alzheimer's for several years, and one of the few things my family agrees on is that if any of us get that terrible disease that we would rather die than being robbed of our memories, which is not only hard on the person with the disease but is also painful and devastating on friends and family; an incurable cancer would literally not be nearly as bad because at least with that you know those around you in your final moments and can enjoy memories of good times one last time.
But why should it matter if you life forever? Life is not permanent, and nothing, not the planets, not the stars, not even the universe, last forever. Any event in life, such as attending a concert, watching a movie, reading book, and enjoyable class, we know those will not last forever, and we even know that love may not last forever, but we do not let that realization keep us from enjoying the moment while it lasts. Why should life be any different? We did not have to be alive, it may not have happened at all, and if anything should count as a miracle it is the fact that we are alive. Why does such a wonderful thing need anything extra attached to it to be enjoyed? How can such a thing not matter? Why should suffering and misery dominate your life when there is so much pleasure and good to get out of life?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

You are trying to say others do not value life, but here you are saying that life itself does not matter.

There are far worst things that can happen than death. My grandmother suffered with Alzheimer's for several years, and one of the few things my family agrees on is that if any of us get that terrible disease that we would rather die than being robbed of our memories, which is not only hard on the person with the disease but is also painful and devastating on friends and family; an incurable cancer would literally not be nearly as bad because at least with that you know those around you in your final moments and can enjoy memories of good times one last time.
But why should it matter if you life forever? Life is not permanent, and nothing, not the planets, not the stars, not even the universe, last forever. Any event in life, such as attending a concert, watching a movie, reading book, and enjoyable class, we know those will not last forever, and we even know that love may not last forever, but we do not let that realization keep us from enjoying the moment while it lasts. Why should life be any different? We did not have to be alive, it may not have happened at all, and if anything should count as a miracle it is the fact that we are alive. Why does such a wonderful thing need anything extra attached to it to be enjoyed? How can such a thing not matter? Why should suffering and misery dominate your life when there is so much pleasure and good to get out of life?

Some people just really have this negative dominating obsessive thought about death that dominates their lives and prevents them from enjoying and finding meaning in this life. Other people instead have a positive outlook dominating over any negatives. But this isn't how the brain usually works. It is usually negatives that have dominance over our lives. It is a survival mechanism. Our brains focus solely on the negatives to keep us alive. So no matter how much I try to get away from this negative obsessive thought about death and just focus on positive things in this life, it does not work. This negative obsessive thought is something very powerful and completely dominates my life. The idea that I will forever cease to exist is the most devastating thing to me and renders my life completely miserable and I have no quality of life because of it.

 

[Riverwolf]

Because, to me, it is not life itself that matters. What matters is that I live forever and am forever happy. It is just simply the worst thing to me for me to forever cease to exist.

Then consider this: you won't cease to exist. Everything that you are will still be there.

Because ultimately, everything that you are, everything that you see, smell, touch, everything you've ever known, literally EVERYTHING, is Stardust.