The One Cause of Poverty That’s Never Considered

[Stevicus]

I never said the CEO was not the top authority, I said he does not determine wages; managers do

Theoretically they could. The CEO has the authority to override or micromanage the managers. Some companies might give greater autonomy to their middle and lower level managers, and some don't. But it's hardly automatic or set in stone, as you seem to be suggesting here.

Managers run the store, and it is their job to pay employees based on what the store can afford to pay them

HR departments also seem to have some level of say on this, since they have to remain on guard against discrimination lawsuits. If a manager is setting pay rates based on their own personal biases, then that could lead to expensive lawsuits for the company.

I suspect they provided answers that were reasonable to their satisfaction, just not yours.

Actually, there was one answer which was reasonable, at least in the sense that they provided actual numbers. They showed an example of a CEO under whose leadership the company made higher profits than the previous CEO. That was at least something tangible to deal with, although they couldn't really connect the dots or prove the causation behind the correlation.

 

[Kfox]

The rest of your post doesn't make any economic sense whatsoever, so maybe take a trip there and find out for yourself instead of just spouting nonsense.

In the USA we get about 2 million illegal immigrants crossing the border each year. That’s about .5% of the totally US population, and this doesn’t count the number who arrive here legally. These people have not spent their lives contributing to the system that provides welfare services to everyone. I don’t know how many illegal immigrants are entering Amsterdam each year; and what percentage of the population they consist of but I had a feeling it was not .5% each year. That is the point I was making.

 

[metis]

In the USA we get about 2 million illegal immigrants crossing the border each year. That’s about .5% of the totally US population, and this doesn’t count the number who arrive here legally. These people have not spent their lives contributing to the system that provides welfare services to everyone. I don’t know how many illegal immigrants are entering Amsterdam each year; and what percentage of the population they consist of but I had a feeling it was not .5% each year. That is the point I was making.

And it has 0 relevance to the topic under debate. It's really all a matter what our priorities are versus possibly should be, namely are we going to take care of our own so as to make a better life for them and for all?

 

[Revoltingest]

CEO's don't determine worker wages, Managers and Unions do. Again; if a CEO puts the company on a more productive course under his leadership resulting to increased revenue, would you agree his leadership has generated more revenue for the company?

This is an occasion where I need the <optimistic> frubal.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

In the USA we get about 2 million illegal immigrants crossing the border each year. That’s about .5% of the totally US population, and this doesn’t count the number who arrive here legally. These people have not spent their lives contributing to the system that provides welfare services to everyone. I don’t know how many illegal immigrants are entering Amsterdam each year; and what percentage of the population they consist of but I had a feeling it was not .5% each year. That is the point I was making.

Ever heard of push pull in the human part of geography that deals with populations?

So how do you want to deal with it?

 

[Kfox]

E.g. for MC-D it depends on how a local entity is owned.

No; the CEO of McDonalds does not determine the wages of individually owned stores, the manager of that particular store does. Often the owner is also the manager though.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No; the CEO of McDonalds does not determine the wages of individually owned stores, the manager of that particular store does. Often the owner is also the manager though.

Well, I have learned that some stores are owned directly by MC-D. Google: are all mcdonald's franchises

 

[averageJOE]

I think it's sad that someone actually performed a "study" on this issue and the readers are taking it as a "eureka!" moment.

When the truth is the oligarchs of this country (and NO. We don't live in a democracy or republic or democratic republic. We live in an Oligarchy) perform its theft on us right out in the open. They don't even try to hide it. We LET these oligarchs steal from us, we continue to vote for politicians who are owned by these oligarchs. And we continue to lie and convince ourselves and each other that it is necessary to prevent an opposing evil.

 

[Kfox]

Theoretically they could. The CEO has the authority to override or micromanage the managers. Some companies might give greater autonomy to their middle and lower level managers, and some don't. But it's hardly automatic or set in stone, as you seem to be suggesting here.

I wasn’t suggesting anything set in stone, of course there are always exceptions; I remember when Trump became President and introduced his interpretation of “trickle down economics” many of the corporations like Walmart, Target, and others raised their minimum wages as a result. I believe those raises were directed by the CEO. But those are the exceptions not the rule

HR departments also seem to have some level of say on this, since they have to remain on guard against discrimination lawsuits. If a manager is setting pay rates based on their own personal biases, then that could lead to expensive lawsuits for the company.

Again; the people working HR are not the super-rich.

Actually, there was one answer which was reasonable, at least in the sense that they provided actual numbers. They showed an example of a CEO under whose leadership the company made higher profits than the previous CEO. That was at least something tangible to deal with, although they couldn't really connect the dots or prove the causation behind the correlation.

Ahh so there was someone who gave a decent answer? Curious; why did your challenge to capitalists require they show you in mathematical terms their worth? How could anybody’s salary be justified that way? Salaries are negotiated between employee and employer

 

[Kfox]

And it has 0 relevance to the topic under debate.

Yes it does! The question was how come we can't do what Amsterdam does. Amsterdam is a much smaller country than USA, has a completely different immigration policy, resulting in citizens not wanting to pay for the type of welfare state Amsterdam has become.

 

[Kfox]

Well, I have learned that some stores are owned directly by MC-D. Google: are all mcdonald's franchises

It doesn't' matter if it is a franchise or a Corporation Store, Managers determine employee wages not the CEO

 

[Kfox]

Ever heard of push pull in the human part of geography that deals with populations?

No. Please explain.

So how do you want to deal with it?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Stevicus]

Ahh so there was someone who gave a decent answer? Curious; why did your challenge to capitalists require they show you in mathematical terms their worth? How could anybody’s salary be justified that way? Salaries are negotiated between employee and employer

That was the whole point of the exercise, to demonstrate that it can't be done. It's really all just a matter of whimsy and feeling, a false sense of pride. All the talk about how hard they work and all their brainpower is just smoke and mirrors, just like their talk about how the poor are worthless, lazy, etc.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

We shouldn't limit our concerns to what one
thinks is the "main" one. Moreover, the economic
system isn't the problem...it works just fine for
those who are productive.

What specifically do you mean by 'productive' in this context?

Fundamentally, government pretends to love
the poor, but in actuality victimizes them with
disdain, corruption, incompetence, & exercising
excessive control over their lives, rather than
enabling them to be more independent.

So while you you see symptoms of economics,
I see the need for a more libertarian approach
to assisting them more effectively.

To a degree I concur. You'd go a lot further than me, and we'd disagree on a LOT of specifics I think. But the aim of government support should be to promote access (to good outcomes and social mobility) and to encourage a more meritorious environment. Basically a shared responsibility model which partners with individuals but also encourages them to invest in themselves.

Long term welfare isn't ideal.

 

[Kfox]

That was the whole point of the exercise, to demonstrate that it can't be done.

That's why nobody uses math, it doesn't make sense to use it that way; you use your reputation, history of accomplishments to negotiate your wages

It's really all just a matter of whimsy and feeling, a false sense of pride.

Do you really believe people get paid millions based on whimsy feelings and pride? Look at what Musk did for Tesla, or what Bezos did for Amazon! I think it was a little more than pride and feelings that got them there.

All the talk about how hard they work and all their brainpower is just smoke and mirrors, just like their talk about how the poor are worthless, lazy, etc.

At that level, nobody cares about how hard you work or how much brain power you have, what they care about is what you accomplish.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Why is that a bad thing?

It means they have an outsized voice in any sphere they wish.
It means they can quell innovation and control aspects of society.
It is not only whether the outsize wealth of 2 people is 'bad' but also how is the concentration of wealth trending in more general terms, and what the market impact of this is (even if you want to discuss it in purely capitalistic terms).

The 2 richest don't agree on political issues so if they were buying votes, they would cancel each other out by buying opposing politicians.

I mean...that's entirely situational.

Think of it this way. Who is third richest?
Add them to your little balance of power?

See how lumpy that is?

Take a million smaller blocks, and moving a few about has much less impact.

 

[Revoltingest]

What specifically do you mean by 'productive' in this context?

Performing work that compensates
the worker enuf to support oneself.

To a degree I concur. You'd go a lot further than me, and we'd disagree on a LOT of specifics I think. But the aim of government support should be to promote access (to good outcomes and social mobility) and to encourage a more meritorious environment. Basically a shared responsibility model which partners with individuals but also encourages them to invest in themselves.

Long term welfare isn't ideal.

No argument here.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That's why nobody uses math, it doesn't make sense to use it that way; you use your reputation, history of accomplishments to negotiate your wages

That's a nice way to do it. Less nice people would use leverage.

Do you really believe people get paid millions based on whimsy feelings and pride? Look at what Musk did for Tesla, or what Bezos did for Amazon! I think it was a little more than pride and feelings that got them there.

Speaking in generalities, many of these first generation rich people had pretty inspiring stories of how they grew their businesses. They often (not always) involve extreme levels of commitment, personal sacrifice and resilience. Many suffered multiple set backs and failures on the way.

But once they are successful, it is human nature to attribute their success to their own efforts, and assume they succeeded because they are the best. It's survivorship bias, pure and simple.

And once they have money, the game changes in terms of making the next million.

If young Jeff Bezos has an idea, but has to go head to head with a cashed up old Jeff Bezos to make it a reality, it might not end well for young Jeff Bezos. Having the system too heavily skewed towards wealth allowing innovation will lead almost inevitably to a concentration of wealth over time (albeit not in a straight linear fashion).

There are other issues, too, around data sovereignty, foreign investment and control particularly, but that's going down a rabbit hole.

At that level, nobody cares about how hard you work or how much brain power you have, what they care about is what you accomplish.

Well...once you're rich enough you can just hire and empower smart people.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Performing work that compensates
the worker enuf to support oneself.

So we can make society more productive by having a meaningfully increased minimum wage?
Perhaps we agree after all...ahem...

No argument here.

Dammit. What is happening to me?!?!?

 

[Revoltingest]

So we can make society more productive my having a meaningfully increased minimum wage?
Perhaps we agree after all...ahem...

A higher minimum wage would increase the cost of
the lowest paid workers. This would incentivize
more automation, & make some unemployable.

A better approach (IMO) would be the UBI
(Universal Basic income). Then let wages float
with market pricing. They'll get what they need
without being priced out of work.

Dammit. What is happening to me?!?!?

You're a failure.