• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Oneness of God (non-Trinitarian View)

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Without matter Einstein would not be able to formulate his famous formula on gravity. Now, you say that Einstein neglected the existence of matter!

He did not, when he wanted to compute the geometry of his continuum. But once he formulated, it realized it is pure geometry. Without mass, it would be just another geometry.

If the universe is composed of matter, how could its energy be totally equal to zero?

Because the gravitational field provides negative energy. And the two things seem to compensate themselves out precisely. A positive mass induces a negative gravitation and the total is zero. At least as long as spacetime is flat at large scales, as it seems to be. This is actually how mass assumes its permanent character. It needs to generate an offsetting negative energy in order to keep the balance happy.

So, it would be incorrect to speak of creation ex-nihilo, since we are still are, nihilo. In a sense.

What is your notion of time? BTW what is space/time in your opinion? I just want to know if they are related to matter.

Spacetime is a 4 dimensional manifold endowed with a covariant 2nd rank pseudo Riemannian metric tensor field. Translation: a 4 dimensional surface in which the distance between two nearby points can have a negative squared distance. If the squared distance were always positive, it would be a Riemannian surface, not a pseudo Riemannian one.

And this tensor field, ergo the operator that allows to measure distances between two nearby points, is affected by energy, ergo matter. So matter influences it, it does not necessarily originate it.

GR, In a nutshell, so to speak.

How could it be absurd to talk of a beginning if we all have had a beginning? You have had a beginning haven't you?

I subscribe to the B-series theory of time. Aka the block Universe, on account of relativity and the geometry of the universe. Therefore, I reject the idea that the past stopped existing. So, no. I did not have a beginning. My past self is still there, an event on that 4 dimensional surface. And my death is already there, as well. At another location on that surface.

I do not use tensed verbs when addressing events on the Universe, in general.

I read a book from Einstein "Out of My Later Years" where he speaks about expansion of the universe. Are you implying that he was fake or absurd? What do you call spacetime? If the universe is composed of matter, how could matter be eternal and immutable? We are parts of the universe. Are we eternal and immutable?

Yes, it is absurd. Space expands in time, at least from our vantage point. But that is a far cry from claiming that spacetime expands. Spacetime cannot have any dynamics whatsoever, For, within what does it expand and at what rate? There is nothing outside of it that can be used to measure its expansion and the rate thereof.

Are you trying to tell me that the concept of causality does not exist?

Causality makes sense only when you have a time context in place and a well defined arrow of time. Ergo, in Universes which are not in thermodynmical equilibrium. Which should be clear if we think that time dirctionality is a macroscopic effect deriving from entropy unbalance. Ergo, you need something macro, before you can talk about it. There is no time arrow in fundamental physics. Therefore, causality makes sense only withing such universes, and to apply it to the contexts in which it is defined, is logically unwarranted.


Ciao

- viole
 
Last edited:

Coder

Active Member
Hi Viole,
My past self is still there, an event on that 4 dimensional surface. And my death is already there, as well. At another location on that surface.

"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." Jeremiah 1:5

"Whatever is has already been and what will be has been before". Ecclesiastes 3:15

:smiley:
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Hi Viole,


"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." Jeremiah 1:5

"Whatever is has already been and what will be has been before". Ecclesiastes 3:15

:smiley:

"If whatever will be has been before, then the second coming of Jesus will never be. " Viole 12:35

Ciao

- viole
 

Coder

Active Member
Hi Viole,
"If whatever will be has been before, then the second coming of Jesus will never be. " Viole 12:35

Ciao

- viole
I was just showing you that the Bible refers to concepts of time in ways that seem to have some commonality with your scientific view. It was just for you to get the "spirit" of it if you were interested - not analyze it. :smile:
 

Forever_Catholic

Active Member
There is one God, and the one God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is the central mystery of the Christian faith, a "mystery" of faith being something that can not be known except that it is revealed by God. And it remains a mystery even after he reveals it because he only reveals to the extent that is fitting.

God revealed himself to the Jews, but only as fully as he gave them to know in the Old Covenant. Jesus revealed himself as God the Son and he revealed the triune nature of God. God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was even present and manifested as three persons before human witnesses at the Baptism of Jesus. And Jesus commanded that we be baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Saint John the apostle simply and eloquently described Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the one God in his Gospel, but the totality of God is not described in sacred scripture. It has not been revealed, and even if it was, it would be far beyond our comprehension. As Jesus said to Saint Faustina in a private revelation, "Neither the mind of man nor the mind of angels will know the essence of God."

But as it applies to mysteries of faith, understanding follows acceptance. It won't work the other way around. If you accept only what you understand in matters of faith, then there will be no further understanding. If you do not understand something Jesus said, but choose to accept it in blind faith just because you trust him, then sufficient understanding will follow (not to mention his appreciation).

In my case as it pertains to the Trinity, the only obstacle to sufficient understanding was an error in thinking that reality for us with finite minds, finite information and finite everything in a created universe must be something remotely like reality is to the omniscient and omnipotent Creator. He is not like us; not comparable to us or to any creature. He is not defined or bound by our math, science, reason, or perceptions of possible and impossible.
 
Last edited:

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
There is one God, and the one God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is the central mystery of the Christian faith, a "mystery" of faith being something that can not be known except that it is revealed by God. And it remains a mystery even after he reveals it because he only reveals to the extent that is fitting.

God revealed himself to the Jews, but only as fully as he gave them to know in the Old Covenant. Jesus revealed himself as God the Son and he revealed the triune nature of God. God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was even present and manifested as three persons before human witnesses at the Baptism of Jesus. And Jesus commanded that we be baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Saint John the apostle simply and eloquently described Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the one God in his Gospel, but the totality of God is not described in sacred scripture. It has not been revealed, and even if it was, it would be far beyond our comprehension. As Jesus said to Saint Faustina in a private revelation, "Neither the mind of man nor the mind of angels will know the essence of God."

But as it applies to mysteries of faith, understanding follows acceptance. It won't work the other way around. If you accept only what you understand in matters of faith, then there will be no further understanding. If you do not understand something Jesus said, but choose to accept it in blind faith just because you trust him, then sufficient understanding will follow (not to mention his appreciation).

So FC, there is ONE God and the ONE God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, right! Right. How is the Son in heaven, in spirit or in flesh? If in spirit as the Father and the Holy Spirit, how could have he drunk and eaten with his disciples for 40 days after his so-called resurrection? (Acts 1:1-3) If in flesh, God is no longer One but two in spirit and one in flesh. Trinity is gone and, any attempt at promoting it, will be no different from promoting pagan idolatry.[/QUOTE]
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
So FC, there is ONE God and the ONE God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, right! Right. How is the Son in heaven, in spirit or in flesh? If in spirit as the Father and the Holy Spirit, how could have he drunk and eaten with his disciples for 40 days after his so-called resurrection? (Acts 1:1-3) If in flesh, God is no longer One but two in spirit and one in flesh. Trinity is gone and, any attempt at promoting it, will be no different from promoting pagan idolatry.
[/QUOTE]

How true. We also read that the Holy Spirit is comes from God, and if it was an actual person, then he would be Jesus's father not God himself. We also read in scripture that the Holy Spirit or God's Spirit can be used in place of angles, such as in the time of Moses in the wilderness. Was that angel "thee Holy Spirit"? No, of course not. God was working through that certain angel. That angel was representing and carrying God's name in him.

So many books in the NT start out by saying that God is the God and father of Jesus. Jesus also always gave glory to his father! Always. We know that God cannot be seen by man and cannot die. Jesus was seen and he died. The list goes on. The trinity totally degrades our Creator.
 

Coder

Active Member
Hi,

If you accept only what you understand in matters of faith, then there will be no further understanding.
Like you, I believe that God honors our love and faith even if we're misguided.

If you are interested in the truth and are willing to consider the pragmatic aspects of the Christian movement within the Roman Empire including its influence on Scripture itself, you may find that Catholic doctrine has parabolic layers heavily influenced by Greek/Roman/pagan beliefs including terminology in Scripture and doctrine. Faith in God is one thing, faith in people (e.g. Greek/Roman/pagans) is another.

Hercules was the human-god son of Zeus (one example). To them, it was not just mythology, it was their actual religion. (This is not even to mention the influence of Roman Empirical domination and power.) If you choose to think, that the prevalent beliefs in the Roman Empire and Greco-Roman religion, that gods impregnated human woman and had human-god children and that Jupiter (the "father in sky", son of Saturn, and the main god in Rome) had no influence on Christian biblical terminology and Roman Catholic doctrine, then that's your decision and God bless.

If you are interested in further discussion of the Trinity (that may also lead you to be more open to these other aspects) then consider that if you believe that you have a personal relationship directly with God then are you not relating to God as one Personal Being? This is part of my point about the Trinity doctrine, is the doctrine really even practiced by all Trinitarians? If Trinitarians believe that God is in three Persons then how do you believe that you can relate to Him directly as one Personal Being? It would seem obvious that the only "Personal" relationship that a Trinitarian can believe they have with God is with one of the Persons. If you pray to God directly, then you must be praying to the three Persons at the same time? This would mean that a Trinitarian cannot believe that they can have a personal relationship with God directly as "One Personal Being".
 
Last edited:

Coder

Active Member
I thank God for Jewish people who are wiling to spend their time and effort helping Christians recover from the Roman Empire and Greek/Roman/pagan influences. Don't give up on us. :smiley: Thank you and God bless you!
 
Last edited:

Forever_Catholic

Active Member
How is the Son in heaven, in spirit or in flesh?
He is in whichever form he chooses, both in heaven and when it suits him, on earth as well -- actually, in all places at once in whatever form he chooses. The "how" is that he is God. He is not restricted within the parameters of time, space, physiology, natural laws, or any other limitation such as we earthly creatures are.

If in spirit as the Father and the Holy Spirit, how could have he drunk and eaten with his disciples for 40 days after his so-called resurrection? (Acts 1:1-3)
Yes, God is pure spirit, but is entirely capable of taking on solid forms. For example, the Holy Spirit assumed the physical form of a dove at Jesus' baptism, just as he told John the Baptist he would do. That is nothing to God, who created the entire universe out of nothing, right?

As the Incarnate Word, the eternally begotten Son came to earth both fully human and fully divine, having been conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He was still fully human and fully divine at, during, and after his physical death and resurrection, so of course he could eat and drink.

If in flesh, God is no longer One but two in spirit and one in flesh. Trinity is gone and, any attempt at promoting it, will be no different from promoting pagan idolatry
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and inseparable regardless of form or multiple forms simultaneously across the universe. Is God not omnipresent? You are using simple human logic and arithmetic here to quantify the unfathomable scope and power of the infinite God.
 

Forever_Catholic

Active Member
We also read that the Holy Spirit is comes from God, and if it was an actual person, then he would be Jesus's father not God himself.
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. He is thought of as the personification of love between Father and Son.

Jesus was seen and he died.
Jesus died a physical death only. He descended to Sheol at that time to deliver the gospel of salvation to the dead before resurrecting on the third day.
 
Last edited:

Forever_Catholic

Active Member
The innate knowledge of God's existence is a property of the soul. It's what Saint Catherine of Genoa described as the "Beatific Instinct." As she explains, it can be suppressed into dormancy in the earthly life, but has a great reawakening after physical death.

In any case, this inborn knowledge is the reason why every human culture throughout history has had religious beliefs. But not every culture could identify or quantify God or know his nature because he had revealed himself only to the Jews until the Messiah came to more fully reveal to the entire world who God is.

So Greek and Roman pagans converted to the one true faith once they became enlightened. This was greatly assisted and accelerated by Emperor Constantine of course, whose miraculous conversion and life-long commitment to protecting, promoting, and expanding the Catholic Church clearly identify him as a chosen servant of God. Saint Constantine also preserved the integrity of Christ's teachings, taking a proactive role in combating heresy. For this very purpose, he assembled bishops from throughout the empire, even paying their travel expenses to attend the First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea in 325. The main result of that was the Nicene Creed, which is still in use.

I'm running out of time for now to go into this further. The bottom line is that there is no leftover paganism or heresy in Catholicism.

If Trinitarians believe that God is in three Persons then how do you believe that you can relate to Him directly as one Personal Being?
When you relate to one, you relate to all, because the three are one. And If a billion people were to receive Christ in the Eucharist at the very same moment, then God the Son would be communing one-on-one with each of them. He would be fully aware of entering into every individual just the same as if that person were the only one, and not one of a billion. And each person receiving God the Son receives God the Father and God the Holy Spirit because the three are one.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
The Holy proceeds from the Father and the Son. He is thought of as the personification of love between Father and Son.


Jesus died a physical death only. He descended to Sheol at that time to deliver the gospel of salvation to the dead before resurrecting on the third day.

The Holy proceeds from the Father and the Son. He is thought of as the personification of love between Father and Son.
No, it doesnt. It proceeds from God only. Does God "give" this Spirit or Holy Spirit to people? Yes, of course. Plus, the HS is not a separate person.
Jesus died a physical death only.
Scripture doesnt tell us that. That one only comes from you.
He descended to Sheol at that time to deliver the gospel of salvation to the dead before resurrecting on the third day. [/QUOTE]
Jesus was dead. How could he have taught anyone? Sheol is the grave. Jesus was dead, then his father raised him from the dead. Look at all of the verses that talk about death. Scripture is clear on that, you are dead until your are raised. There is nothing in death.
 

Forever_Catholic

Active Member
Scripture doesnt tell us that. That one only comes from you.
John 5:25 - Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.

and

1 Peter 4:6 - For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

Jesus was dead. How could he have taught anyone? Sheol is the grave. Jesus was dead, then his father raised him from the dead. Look at all of the verses that talk about death. Scripture is clear on that, you are dead until your are raised. There is nothing in death.

God references two forms of death in scripture. There is physical death, which is plain enough. There is also spiritual death, which is the separation of the soul from God, as in "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) and "But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat, for in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death." (Genesis 2:17) Spiritual death is damnation as opposed to everlasting life, which is salvation. But in any case, the soul never dies. That's another topic altogether, but you can get a scriptural glimpse of living souls in Sheol as well as the eternal properties of the soul if you check out Jesus' parable of the Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
1 - He is in whichever form he chooses, both in heaven and when it suits him, on earth as well -- actually, in all places at once in whatever form he chooses. The "how" is that he is God. He is not restricted within the parameters of time, space, physiology, natural laws, or any other limitation such as we earthly creatures are.

2 - Yes, God is pure spirit, but is entirely capable of taking on solid forms. For example, the Holy Spirit assumed the physical form of a dove at Jesus' baptism, just as he told John the Baptist he would do. That is nothing to God, who created the entire universe out of nothing, right?

3 - As the Incarnate Word, the eternally begotten Son came to earth both fully human and fully divine, having been conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He was still fully human and fully divine at, during, and after his physical death and resurrection, so of course he could eat and drink.

4 - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and inseparable regardless of form or multiple forms simultaneously across the universe. Is God not omnipresent? You are using simple human logic and arithmetic here to quantify the unfathomable scope and power of the infinite God.

1 - Jesus can no longer choose any thing because he has been dead 2000 years and, that's the first reason why he could not be God. The second, more powerful than the first, he was a Jew and, for a Jew to say he was God, he had to have lost his mind to put up such a claim.

2 - If you have no problem reading the Tanach, take a look at Deuteronomy 4:15-20, you will see why God could never take the human form or the form of any animal, bird or whatever. It would be an act of idolatry even to mention such a claim.

3 - Jesus was born and he also died. For that reason alone, he could not be God or like God, or even the son of God, unless as part of Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23.

4 - Yes, God is Omnipotent and He can do every thing He decides to but one; the thing you wish He did or should have done. That's not how He works; and much less as a result of speculations.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
I thank God for Jewish people who are wiling to spend their time and effort helping Christians recover from the Roman Empire and Greek/Roman/pagan influences. Don't give up on us. :smiley: Thank you and God bless you!

Coder, you can count on me!
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member

How true. We also read that the Holy Spirit is comes from God, and if it was an actual person, then he would be Jesus's father not God himself. We also read in scripture that the Holy Spirit or God's Spirit can be used in place of angles, such as in the time of Moses in the wilderness. Was that angel "thee Holy Spirit"? No, of course not. God was working through that certain angel. That angel was representing and carrying God's name in him.

So many books in the NT start out by saying that God is the God and father of Jesus. Jesus also always gave glory to his father! Always. We know that God cannot be seen by man and cannot die. Jesus was seen and he died. The list goes on. The trinity totally degrades our Creator.[/QUOTE]

Angels are emanations which personify only in a dream or vision. (Numbers 12:6)
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
John 5:25 - Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.

and

1 Peter 4:6 - For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.



God references two forms of death in scripture. There is physical death, which is plain enough. There is also spiritual death, which is the separation of the soul from God, as in "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) and "But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat, for in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death." (Genesis 2:17) Spiritual death is damnation as opposed to everlasting life, which is salvation. But in any case, the soul never dies. That's another topic altogether, but you can get a scriptural glimpse of living souls in Sheol as well as the eternal properties of the soul if you check out Jesus' parable of the Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31.

God references two forms of death in scripture.
There is only one death in scripture. I take it your Catholic?
There is also spiritual death, which is the separation of the soul from God, as in "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23)
There is only one death. Plus, an immortal soul? Where is that in the bible? How come "immortal" and "soul" are never found together in scripture..... Do you know what the Hebrew word for "soul" actually is? I realy dont think so. God never gives us a soul, we are one....
But in any case, the soul never dies.
Taken from pagan teachings..... sorry.....
That's another topic altogether, but you can get a scriptural glimpse of living souls in Sheol as well as the eternal properties of the soul if you check out Jesus' parable of the Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31.
Thank you for telling us that Lazarus is a parable.... I was just going to say that myself. Jesus is making a point to his disciples. And as far as immortal souls still living in the grave? Can you give me a verse on that one?
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
How true. We also read that the Holy Spirit is comes from God, and if it was an actual person, then he would be Jesus's father not God himself. We also read in scripture that the Holy Spirit or God's Spirit can be used in place of angles, such as in the time of Moses in the wilderness. Was that angel "thee Holy Spirit"? No, of course not. God was working through that certain angel. That angel was representing and carrying God's name in him.

So many books in the NT start out by saying that God is the God and father of Jesus. Jesus also always gave glory to his father! Always. We know that God cannot be seen by man and cannot die. Jesus was seen and he died. The list goes on. The trinity totally degrades our Creator.

Angels are emanations which personify only in a dream or vision. (Numbers 12:6)[/QUOTE]

Angels are emanations which personify only in a dream or vision. (Numbers 12:6)
What are you talking about? Your only taking that one verse about a certain situation about an angel? What about all the other verses on angels through out scripture. Actually, I"m really not sure what your saying.... Are you saying that angels are only in visions and dreams? I hope not.... Plus, read the whole chapter on Numbers 12.
 

Forever_Catholic

Active Member
1 - Jesus can no longer choose any thing because he has been dead 2000 years and, that's the first reason why he could not be God.
This is your most critical error. Jesus is alive and is life itself - the only hope for your own everlasting life in heaven. As he said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

If you pray with a sincere heart to know him, he will come to you and his truth will be unmistakable.
 
Top