-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The Origin of Us.
- Thread starter Ellen Brown
- Start date
Earthling
David Henson
No, you are missing the point in translation. If they ate from the tree they would die, if they didn't they would live forever. They died. The Hebrew says "in dying you shall die"
Ellen Brown,
At Genesis 1:31, The Bible tells us that everything that God made was very good, Deuteronomy 32:4,5 says that everything God does is Perfect, and notice verse 5 says the defect was their own.
Genesis 1:26-28 tells us what God’s Purpose was for mankind and the earth, Adam and Eve were to multiply,fill the earth with perfect offspring until the earth was comfortably filled, then they would stop having children. There was no death in their future unless they ate of the tree of good and evil,in the middle of the Garden of Eden, Genesis 2:17. They sinned against God when they ate of the fruit, which made them have a defect, imperfection, which they passed on to all their children, Romans 5:12. Because of their sin they died and returned to the ground,just as God said
Genesis 3:17-19.
God did not want all mankind to have no hope, so He decided to allow His dear son to come to earth and Sacrifice his life for all who would believe in him, John 3:16, Romans 5:12-21, 1Timothy 2:3-6. God sent His son to be a perfect man, just as Adam was, so it was a Ransom Sacrifice, because no man, being all imperfect, could offer their life to regain what Adam lost, Psalms 49:7,8. By following Jesus footsteps we can live forever in a paradise earth,just as God meant for Adam, Eve and all mankind to do, Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 37:29, 115:15,16, Proverbs 2:21,22.
When The Almighty God Purposes something it is certain to come true, Isaiah 14,24-27, 55:11.
Our Heavenly Father wants only the very best for HisChildren, just as any Good father on earth wants for his children, so He has promised to resurrect those that have died, then teach them His ways, then we can all have the same promises that Adam and Eve had, endless live in a perfect earthly Paradise, Revelation 21:1-6. Agape!!!
Skwim
Veteran Member
Being all knowing, god would certainly have been aware that A&E would fail his test and necessarily bring sin (a defect) on all their progeny. So, yes, God made defective people through his tools A&E, and obviously on purpose. If you're asking "why?" my considered conclusion is that he was bored, or that his ego needed stroking by praise and worship. Whatever the case, he sure doesn't come across as a particularly stable god.
.
Last edited:
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
Feeling a bit hostile toward Christians, despite having been one once. A Christian has some trouble, the brothers and sisters are on them like a pack of Jackals. Sad, so sad. Where is the forgiveness and restoration that is to come after contriteness? Who gets to decide if someone is contrite? The stage is open for those who would assume to help God, even though he needs no help.
Hope ya'll have a nice Christmas there.
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
I'm not missing anything. This is palin enough:
Genesis 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Now show me where it says anything about "if they didn't they would live forever", I cannot find it anywhere.
And even that would be a lie because they did NOT "live forever".
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
Earthling
David Henson
If they were to die as an eventual result of eating from or touching fruit of the tree its only logical to conclude that not doing so wouldn't result in their death. Then you have the scriptures telling you throughout that inheriting the sin of Adam resulted in our death, that sin equals death, that Jesus' sacrifice brings us hope for resurrection to everlasting life, what more information do you need?
I understand the confusion lost in translation, that the Hebrew says "in dying you shall die" i.e. begin dying, but the doubt of living forever isn't reasonable, in my opinion.
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
No, no, no...
Please do not give me your "its only logical to conclude" theory and try inferring that makes it a "fact", it doesn't.
Now again, it clearly states:
Genesis 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: >>>for in the day<<< that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So note the ">>>for in the day<<<" part I highlighted in the verse.
That means that God told Adam & Eve that they would die the very same day that they ate from the tree of life, they did NOT die that same day.
Now I've shown you the vers to back up my claim, so now it's your turn to show a verse to back up your's. No more opinions.
Earthling
David Henson
For in the day is your opinion and it doesn't jive with the original Hebrew. For in that day they would begin to die. "in dying you shall die."
nPeace
Veteran Member
@Ancient Soul You are correct that the Bible says, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
They did indeed die in that day.
Are you suggesting they didn't?
If so, could you explain why please?
Additionally, @Earthling is making a point, which I am not sure if you get the point he is making.
Because thou shalt surely die follows closely after for in the day, does that mean "You will die on that day"? Not necessarily the case.
They did indeed die in that day.
Are you suggesting they didn't?
If so, could you explain why please?
Additionally, @Earthling is making a point, which I am not sure if you get the point he is making.
Because thou shalt surely die follows closely after for in the day, does that mean "You will die on that day"? Not necessarily the case.
Last edited:
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The tree of knowledge of good and evil is same as law. Law teaches us what is good and what is evil so we know the difference and make choices. Original sin is connected to the unnatural brain/neural problem that is created in humans because of law.
When the brain writes to memory, aspects of the limbic system, in the center of the brain, attached emotions to the memory asit is written to the cerebral matter. Our memory has both sensory content and emotional tags. Our strongest memories have strong feelings attached; marriage, births, trauma, etc., This tagging process is useful to the animal brain. When their memory is triggered, by a similar event, the animal can act on the attached feeling, without having to think. If they come upon a food item that was previous tagged "good" they will eat without having to think. This is natural and efficient.
The problem that law creates is, law is a binary of type of memory of both the good and evil; proper behavior and behavior to avoid out of fear of punishment. This binary nature of law results in two conflicting emotions or two conflicting feeling tags needing to be added to one memory. This is not natural.
In terms of natural instinct, it is not useful to feel both positive and negative feelings for the same memory since it creates confusion and indecision. This is not good for survival. The animal would not be able to act on instinct if the food item was both good and bad at the same time. Will they enjoy it or will they get sick? The animal brain will be stuck in limbo.
The brain settles the potential crested by these two conflicting feelings by separating law memories into two memory locations. Law is like a coin that has two sides. It is is one thing, but we only see one side at a time. One side of law memory is conscious, while the other side is made unconscious to avoid the conflict of feelings. The unconscious side can develop an autonomy; repression, and become subject to compulsions.
Sin taking opportunity through the commandment produces sin of every kind. This biblical observation is connected to the emotional tagging process for cerebral memory. The two conflicting tags of emotions created by law causes a single memory to become split. The brain separates our law memories into two storage locations, with one aspect made more unconscious. We do not wish to see ourselves as evil or having any original sin. The dark side of law is repressed. The unconscious aspect eventually developed an autonomy of its own; Satan. This can be individual and/or collective. The ancients were aware of this, but science had yet to provide the neural biological proof of the memory writing and the neural impact of law.
Jesus does away with law through the forgiveness of sins. The goal was to start the healing process by minimizing the binary memory grid of conflicting feelings induced by law. A return to paradise, to engage natural instinct, requires removing the binary grid. This is not easy to do, since it is hard to avoid law and not become programmed. Forgiveness of sins was a neural procedure where the fear tag associated with the dark side of law, is neutralized, so there is one feeling tag of law. The ancients were brilliant.
Axe Elf
Prophet
Wow, you had some really bad bible study teachers. Sorry 'bout that.
POST ONE OF FOUR
Ellen, I admit I am often a fan of yours. I like your logical questions and comments in the main. I think this specific question of yours, if I understand it correctly, is an important base concept. I don’t like many of the later Christian theories and interpretations where infants come into the world having “inherited” moral taint from something someone else (Adam) did. It smacks of injustice to punish one person for what another person did. I think the early Christian interpretations that Adam is not the cause of moral evil in others. This is the point made in the early Text, Apoc of Baruch when Baruch is telling evil doers not to blame Adam for their evils :
“…turn yourselves to destruction, you unrighteous ones who are living now, for you will be visited suddenly, since you have once rejected the understanding of the most High. For his works have not taught you, nor has the artful work of his creation which has existed always persuaded you. Adam is, therefore not the cause, except only for himself, but each of us has become our own Adam.” The apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 54:17-19;
I think such early Judao-Christian doctrines have profound contextual advantages over modern theories. For example, consider the fall of Adam and Eve if one simply adds two simple, but important ancient contexts.
The first principle is reflected by the Prophet Sedrach’s observation to God the Father that : “It was by your will that Adam was deceived, my master” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7). In this model, the fall of Adam was known to God beforehand, and in fact, it was his will that his plan for mankinds mortal experience should proceed despite the fact that Adam would fall.
The second principle was the early doctrine that the tree of “knowledge” (γνοστον) which Adam partook of was described as the “TREE OF WISDOM”. In that worldview, it was not simply the tree of "knowledge”.
The implications of both ancient principles was the basis of an entirely different paradigm. Combined and paraphrased, this ancient doctrine was : “IT WAS ACCORDING TO GOD’S WILL THAT ADAM ACQUIRED WISDOM”.
Just as the origin of Satan is not to be understood outside of pre-mortal Christian theology, I do not think the fall of Adam can be well understood without considering Pre-mortality; what God was attempting to with Adam (and the rest of us) and the role of gaining moral wisdom in God’s plan for mankind.
A) PRE-CREATION CONDITIONS RELATING TO ADAM - “GOD WAS IN THE MIDST OF SPIRITS”
According to this early Christian model, God did not create spirits of mankind out of “nothing” (and therefore was responsible for their characteristics – both good and evil). Instead, before the creation of this world, God was in the midst of spirits. Early textual testimonies describe innumerable spirits existing in “heaven” before creation. Regarding pre-creation heaven, Enoch records : "No one could come near unto him [God the Father] from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him". (1 En 14:23)
Enoch continues : "I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits". (1 Enoch 40:1-2)"
In this ancient doctrine, God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth. The spirit that was to be clothed in Adam’s body was among these spirits. Jewish haggadah relates : ...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” (The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)
The pre-mortal Jesus is among these spirits as well. Enoch describes his vision of seeing the pre-mortal Jesus with the Father. Upon seeing these two individuals, Enoch asks who this individual (the pre-mortal Jesus) was and what role he had in the Father's Plan : "At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...." (1 Enoch 46:1-4)
The fact that the original plan called for a savior to redeem meant that it was known from the very beginning that man would both fall and need a redeemer to save them from the fall. Early texts such as Jewish Zohar confirm this : “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, .... Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world.” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)
B) GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN FOR MANKIND - “TO SEE AND UNDERSTAND THINGS”
If the early Christians were correct that spirits existed prior to creation, then one may ask what a moral and loving God would plan regarding these spirits? The ancient Jewish doctrine that God had instituted a divine plan is interwoven into multiple texts "Before all things came to be, he [God] has ordered all their designs" (Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q255-264)
“....I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)
The Prophet Enoch describes the earliest stages of God’s plan before it was known among the heavenly host : "for not even to my angels have I explained my secrets, nor related to them their origin, nor my endless and inconceivable creation which I conceived." (2nd Enoch 24:3) Once God sets in motion his great plan, God seems to take great care in both the planning of and in ensuring the deep involvement of the Heavenly Hosts (for whose benefit the plan existed).
Opening post)
Ellen, I admit I am often a fan of yours. I like your logical questions and comments in the main. I think this specific question of yours, if I understand it correctly, is an important base concept. I don’t like many of the later Christian theories and interpretations where infants come into the world having “inherited” moral taint from something someone else (Adam) did. It smacks of injustice to punish one person for what another person did. I think the early Christian interpretations that Adam is not the cause of moral evil in others. This is the point made in the early Text, Apoc of Baruch when Baruch is telling evil doers not to blame Adam for their evils :
“…turn yourselves to destruction, you unrighteous ones who are living now, for you will be visited suddenly, since you have once rejected the understanding of the most High. For his works have not taught you, nor has the artful work of his creation which has existed always persuaded you. Adam is, therefore not the cause, except only for himself, but each of us has become our own Adam.” The apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 54:17-19;
I think such early Judao-Christian doctrines have profound contextual advantages over modern theories. For example, consider the fall of Adam and Eve if one simply adds two simple, but important ancient contexts.
The first principle is reflected by the Prophet Sedrach’s observation to God the Father that : “It was by your will that Adam was deceived, my master” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7). In this model, the fall of Adam was known to God beforehand, and in fact, it was his will that his plan for mankinds mortal experience should proceed despite the fact that Adam would fall.
The second principle was the early doctrine that the tree of “knowledge” (γνοστον) which Adam partook of was described as the “TREE OF WISDOM”. In that worldview, it was not simply the tree of "knowledge”.
The implications of both ancient principles was the basis of an entirely different paradigm. Combined and paraphrased, this ancient doctrine was : “IT WAS ACCORDING TO GOD’S WILL THAT ADAM ACQUIRED WISDOM”.
Just as the origin of Satan is not to be understood outside of pre-mortal Christian theology, I do not think the fall of Adam can be well understood without considering Pre-mortality; what God was attempting to with Adam (and the rest of us) and the role of gaining moral wisdom in God’s plan for mankind.
A) PRE-CREATION CONDITIONS RELATING TO ADAM - “GOD WAS IN THE MIDST OF SPIRITS”
According to this early Christian model, God did not create spirits of mankind out of “nothing” (and therefore was responsible for their characteristics – both good and evil). Instead, before the creation of this world, God was in the midst of spirits. Early textual testimonies describe innumerable spirits existing in “heaven” before creation. Regarding pre-creation heaven, Enoch records : "No one could come near unto him [God the Father] from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him". (1 En 14:23)
Enoch continues : "I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits". (1 Enoch 40:1-2)"
In this ancient doctrine, God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth. The spirit that was to be clothed in Adam’s body was among these spirits. Jewish haggadah relates : ...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” (The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)
The pre-mortal Jesus is among these spirits as well. Enoch describes his vision of seeing the pre-mortal Jesus with the Father. Upon seeing these two individuals, Enoch asks who this individual (the pre-mortal Jesus) was and what role he had in the Father's Plan : "At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...." (1 Enoch 46:1-4)
The fact that the original plan called for a savior to redeem meant that it was known from the very beginning that man would both fall and need a redeemer to save them from the fall. Early texts such as Jewish Zohar confirm this : “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, .... Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world.” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)
B) GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN FOR MANKIND - “TO SEE AND UNDERSTAND THINGS”
If the early Christians were correct that spirits existed prior to creation, then one may ask what a moral and loving God would plan regarding these spirits? The ancient Jewish doctrine that God had instituted a divine plan is interwoven into multiple texts "Before all things came to be, he [God] has ordered all their designs" (Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q255-264)
“....I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)
The Prophet Enoch describes the earliest stages of God’s plan before it was known among the heavenly host : "for not even to my angels have I explained my secrets, nor related to them their origin, nor my endless and inconceivable creation which I conceived." (2nd Enoch 24:3) Once God sets in motion his great plan, God seems to take great care in both the planning of and in ensuring the deep involvement of the Heavenly Hosts (for whose benefit the plan existed).
POST TWO OF FOUR
Early records also describe the great authority and various roles the pre-mortal Jesus fulfilled in administrating much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s "right hand" was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations). Diognetus relates : "And when he (God) revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of [us] ever would have expected.” (Diog 301:8-11)
Such texts explain that the purpose of the plan was to “share in the benefits and see and understand things”; i.e. to gain wisdom. This is the very thing Adam and Eve sought FROM the tree of wisdom).
The gaining of wisdom WAS the very thing God wanted to share with man. In fact, the dead sea scrolls celebrate God’s giving of knowledge and understanding (wisdom) to Adam : …You have done wonders of old, and awesome deeds long ago. You fashioned Adam, our father, in the image of Your glory; You breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and filled him with understanding and knowledge. You set him to rule over the garden of Eden that you had planted…and to walk about in a glorious land…” (Dead Sea Scrols, 4Q504 - 506)
In explaining Adam’s assignment upon the earth, God says of the pre-eminent Adam : “...(as my) image he knows the word like (no) other....11 and on the earth I assigned him to be a second angel, honored and great and glorious. 12 And I assigned him to be a king, to reign on the earth, and to have my wisdom.“ (2nd Enoch 30:10-12)
God continues explaining to Enoch regarding Adam : And there was nothing comparable to him on the earth, even among my creatures that exist.... I gave him his free will; and I pointed out to him the two ways –light and darkness. And I said to him, ‘this is good for you, but that is bad’....
Several early histories make clear that the creation of and education of the spirits of Mankind will involve the fall into sin and much evil would occur. This means that God knew that mankind would sin even before he created man. For example, in the discourse of Abbaton, the earth tells the angel assigned to gather bits of earth to form Adam “And straightway the earth cried out with a loud voice, saying, “I swear unto thee by Him Who sent thee to Me, that if thou takest me to Him, He will mold me into a form, and I shall become a man, and a living soul. And very many sins shall come forth from my heart (or, body), and many fornications, and slanderous abuse, and jealousy, and hatred and contention shall come forth from his hand, and many murders and sheddings of blood shall come forth from his hand.”
Theists and non-Theists alike have asked the question : IF AN OMNIPOTENT GOD KNEW THAT SIN AND EVIL WOULD RESULT FROM HIS CREATION OF MAN, WHY DID HE DO IT (KNOWING OF THE TERRIBLE SUFFERING AND INIQUITIES THAT WOULD RESULT FROM HIS CREATION)?
“ (2nd Enoch 30:13-15) The early textual traditions explain reasons WHY God wanted to give Adam (and all of the rest of us) knowledge and wisdom, despite God's knowledge of what terrible things that would be done among us : “...so that it might become plain who among his race loves me. 16 Whereas I have come to know his nature, he does not know his own nature. That is why ignorance is more lamentable than the sin such as it is in him to sin.” (2nd Enoch 30:15-17)
There was something even “more lamentable” about an eternal existence in moral ignorance and social unrest than a temporary and limited sin IF it contributed to mankind acquiring moral wisdom sufficient to live in eternal social joy and harmony. The texts also make clear that mankind had to understand moral law BEFORE mankind could understand EITHER moral reward OR moral punishment BASED on moral law. When the Prophet Baruch complains about apparent inconsistencies in reward and punishment in mortality, God explains the principle underlying this moral education. God tells Baruch :
“... your judgment about the evils which befell those who sin is incorrect. ... ....listen and I shall speak to you; pay attention and I shall let my words be heard. It is true that man would not have understood my judgment if he had not received the law and if he were not instructed with understanding. But now, because he trespassed, having understanding, he will be punished because he has understanding. And with regard to the righteous ones,... this world is to them a struggle and an effort with much trouble. And that according which will come, a crown with great glory.” (The Apocalypse of Baruch 15:1 and 5-7)
If man was not educated regarding good and evils they do, they would not understand the rewards nor the punishments that follow moral actions nor would they have understood the ultimate justice of God’s judgment.
The Zohar explains this doctrine of moral education of spirits leaving heaven for earth for a short time, to become educated, only to return to heaven. “It may be wondered, if they are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day.....” (THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART)
Thus the purpose of creating a moral world, sending the spirits of mankind to it served as a cosmic experience of tutoring in principles of Social laws regarding good and evil, justice and mercy, right and wrong. And, all of this as part of a preparation for these individuals to learn and master moral and social laws that were to ultimately, prepare them to become inhabitants of a social heaven, able to live with others in joy and harmony for ever.
C) THE UNITING OF ADAM’S BODY AND SPIRIT WAS AN INAUGURATION OF GOD’S PLAN ON EARTH
After enduring some controversy (e.g. the war in heaven), the plan of the Father progressed through the creation of the various planets and the preparation of the earth all in preparation for the placing of mankind on the earth. After eons of time and great preparations, the appointed time of inauguration of mankind with Adam takes place. Multiple texts describe this time period in great detail. The texts describe a time of great excitement as Adam’s body is created and Adam’s spirit is placed into his body to become a living being, and, being in the image and appearance of God, Adam is beautiful and honored.
In Christian Barthlomew, God tells Michael : "Bring me earth...And when Michael had brought them to him, he formed Adam in the east, and gave form to the shapeless earth, and stretched sinews and veins, and united everything into a harmonious whole. And he showed him reverence for his own sake because he was in his image. And Michael also [honored] him. (The Gospel of Bartholomew Ch IV)
Christian Abbaton describes the event similarly : "And He put breath into him in this way : “He (God) breathed into his (Adams) nostrils the breath of life three times, saying, “Live! Live! Live! According to the type of My Divinity.” And the man lived straightway, and became a living soul, according to the image and likeness of God. And when Adam had risen up he cast himself down before [My] father, saying, “My Lord and my God! Thou hast made me to come into being [from a state in which] I did not exist.”Thereupon My Father set him upon a great throne, and he placed on his head a crown of glory, and he put a royal scepter [in his hand](Discourse on Abbaton)
The point in such descriptions from the early texts is that the early Christian doctrines commonly taught that Adam held a position of pre-eminence and honor and he was not merely a pet of a lonely God, but he was chosen to inaugurate the most important part of God’s pre-creation plan up to that point in history. Adam was not an arbitrary choice, but he was chosen and assigned. Keep in mind God’s description of Adam’s assignment : “...(as my) image he knows the word like (no) other....11 and on the earth I assigned him to be a second angel, honored and great and glorious. 12 And I assigned him to be a king, to reign on the earth, and to have my wisdom.“ (2nd Enoch 30:10-12)
D) ADAM’S DESIRE TO GAIN KNOWLEDGE AND WISDOM WAS NOT EVIL
When we consider the Knowledge or wisdom Adam was given by having eaten of the fruit of the tree, Sedrach’s reminder, changes our viewpoint as to what happened. When the Prophet Sedrach said to God : “It was by your will that Adam was deceived, my master”; he said this, knowing that God COULD HAVE STOPPED THE FALL OF MAN.
The Prophet then asks God : “If you loved man, why did you not kill the devil, the artificer of all iniquity? Who can fight against an invisible spirit? He enters the hearts of men like a smoke and teaches them all kinds of sin. He even fights against you, the immortal God, and so what can pitiful man do against him.....” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7) In this ancient view, man eventually would have “fallen”. Sedrach understood that God himself created the very essential precondition for Adam and Eve partaking of the tree of wisdom by expelling a vengeful Lucifer from heaven and then placing the willy lucifer in close proximity to the guileless but inexperienced Adam and Eve. And Sedrach ultimately understood that there was a perfectly legitimate reason for God to have done so.
One might consider that there is nothing wrong with the desire to have knowledge and wisdom. Ignorance was never a positive virtue. Knowledge and wisdom regarding good and evil and their discernment seems to be an essential characteristic of divinity. Lucifer’s specific promise to Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, their eyes should be “opened” and they would then “be as the gods, knowing good and evil” (Gen 3:5) was not a lie since God himself confirms that, having eaten of the fruit of the tree, “the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil” (Gen 3:22).
It is partly the ongoing discoveries of ancient contexts that caused later scholars to consider such histories from the view point of the ancients who described their beliefs in multiple ancient texts. For example, Gordon and Rendsburg write “If we examine the story in Genesis objectively, we see that, while many elements go into making up the whole picture, it is not so much an account of the “Fall of Man” but rather of the rise of man halfway to divinity.”
Early records also describe the great authority and various roles the pre-mortal Jesus fulfilled in administrating much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s "right hand" was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations). Diognetus relates : "And when he (God) revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of [us] ever would have expected.” (Diog 301:8-11)
Such texts explain that the purpose of the plan was to “share in the benefits and see and understand things”; i.e. to gain wisdom. This is the very thing Adam and Eve sought FROM the tree of wisdom).
The gaining of wisdom WAS the very thing God wanted to share with man. In fact, the dead sea scrolls celebrate God’s giving of knowledge and understanding (wisdom) to Adam : …You have done wonders of old, and awesome deeds long ago. You fashioned Adam, our father, in the image of Your glory; You breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and filled him with understanding and knowledge. You set him to rule over the garden of Eden that you had planted…and to walk about in a glorious land…” (Dead Sea Scrols, 4Q504 - 506)
In explaining Adam’s assignment upon the earth, God says of the pre-eminent Adam : “...(as my) image he knows the word like (no) other....11 and on the earth I assigned him to be a second angel, honored and great and glorious. 12 And I assigned him to be a king, to reign on the earth, and to have my wisdom.“ (2nd Enoch 30:10-12)
God continues explaining to Enoch regarding Adam : And there was nothing comparable to him on the earth, even among my creatures that exist.... I gave him his free will; and I pointed out to him the two ways –light and darkness. And I said to him, ‘this is good for you, but that is bad’....
Several early histories make clear that the creation of and education of the spirits of Mankind will involve the fall into sin and much evil would occur. This means that God knew that mankind would sin even before he created man. For example, in the discourse of Abbaton, the earth tells the angel assigned to gather bits of earth to form Adam “And straightway the earth cried out with a loud voice, saying, “I swear unto thee by Him Who sent thee to Me, that if thou takest me to Him, He will mold me into a form, and I shall become a man, and a living soul. And very many sins shall come forth from my heart (or, body), and many fornications, and slanderous abuse, and jealousy, and hatred and contention shall come forth from his hand, and many murders and sheddings of blood shall come forth from his hand.”
Theists and non-Theists alike have asked the question : IF AN OMNIPOTENT GOD KNEW THAT SIN AND EVIL WOULD RESULT FROM HIS CREATION OF MAN, WHY DID HE DO IT (KNOWING OF THE TERRIBLE SUFFERING AND INIQUITIES THAT WOULD RESULT FROM HIS CREATION)?
“ (2nd Enoch 30:13-15) The early textual traditions explain reasons WHY God wanted to give Adam (and all of the rest of us) knowledge and wisdom, despite God's knowledge of what terrible things that would be done among us : “...so that it might become plain who among his race loves me. 16 Whereas I have come to know his nature, he does not know his own nature. That is why ignorance is more lamentable than the sin such as it is in him to sin.” (2nd Enoch 30:15-17)
There was something even “more lamentable” about an eternal existence in moral ignorance and social unrest than a temporary and limited sin IF it contributed to mankind acquiring moral wisdom sufficient to live in eternal social joy and harmony. The texts also make clear that mankind had to understand moral law BEFORE mankind could understand EITHER moral reward OR moral punishment BASED on moral law. When the Prophet Baruch complains about apparent inconsistencies in reward and punishment in mortality, God explains the principle underlying this moral education. God tells Baruch :
“... your judgment about the evils which befell those who sin is incorrect. ... ....listen and I shall speak to you; pay attention and I shall let my words be heard. It is true that man would not have understood my judgment if he had not received the law and if he were not instructed with understanding. But now, because he trespassed, having understanding, he will be punished because he has understanding. And with regard to the righteous ones,... this world is to them a struggle and an effort with much trouble. And that according which will come, a crown with great glory.” (The Apocalypse of Baruch 15:1 and 5-7)
If man was not educated regarding good and evils they do, they would not understand the rewards nor the punishments that follow moral actions nor would they have understood the ultimate justice of God’s judgment.
The Zohar explains this doctrine of moral education of spirits leaving heaven for earth for a short time, to become educated, only to return to heaven. “It may be wondered, if they are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day.....” (THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART)
Thus the purpose of creating a moral world, sending the spirits of mankind to it served as a cosmic experience of tutoring in principles of Social laws regarding good and evil, justice and mercy, right and wrong. And, all of this as part of a preparation for these individuals to learn and master moral and social laws that were to ultimately, prepare them to become inhabitants of a social heaven, able to live with others in joy and harmony for ever.
C) THE UNITING OF ADAM’S BODY AND SPIRIT WAS AN INAUGURATION OF GOD’S PLAN ON EARTH
After enduring some controversy (e.g. the war in heaven), the plan of the Father progressed through the creation of the various planets and the preparation of the earth all in preparation for the placing of mankind on the earth. After eons of time and great preparations, the appointed time of inauguration of mankind with Adam takes place. Multiple texts describe this time period in great detail. The texts describe a time of great excitement as Adam’s body is created and Adam’s spirit is placed into his body to become a living being, and, being in the image and appearance of God, Adam is beautiful and honored.
In Christian Barthlomew, God tells Michael : "Bring me earth...And when Michael had brought them to him, he formed Adam in the east, and gave form to the shapeless earth, and stretched sinews and veins, and united everything into a harmonious whole. And he showed him reverence for his own sake because he was in his image. And Michael also [honored] him. (The Gospel of Bartholomew Ch IV)
Christian Abbaton describes the event similarly : "And He put breath into him in this way : “He (God) breathed into his (Adams) nostrils the breath of life three times, saying, “Live! Live! Live! According to the type of My Divinity.” And the man lived straightway, and became a living soul, according to the image and likeness of God. And when Adam had risen up he cast himself down before [My] father, saying, “My Lord and my God! Thou hast made me to come into being [from a state in which] I did not exist.”Thereupon My Father set him upon a great throne, and he placed on his head a crown of glory, and he put a royal scepter [in his hand](Discourse on Abbaton)
The point in such descriptions from the early texts is that the early Christian doctrines commonly taught that Adam held a position of pre-eminence and honor and he was not merely a pet of a lonely God, but he was chosen to inaugurate the most important part of God’s pre-creation plan up to that point in history. Adam was not an arbitrary choice, but he was chosen and assigned. Keep in mind God’s description of Adam’s assignment : “...(as my) image he knows the word like (no) other....11 and on the earth I assigned him to be a second angel, honored and great and glorious. 12 And I assigned him to be a king, to reign on the earth, and to have my wisdom.“ (2nd Enoch 30:10-12)
D) ADAM’S DESIRE TO GAIN KNOWLEDGE AND WISDOM WAS NOT EVIL
When we consider the Knowledge or wisdom Adam was given by having eaten of the fruit of the tree, Sedrach’s reminder, changes our viewpoint as to what happened. When the Prophet Sedrach said to God : “It was by your will that Adam was deceived, my master”; he said this, knowing that God COULD HAVE STOPPED THE FALL OF MAN.
The Prophet then asks God : “If you loved man, why did you not kill the devil, the artificer of all iniquity? Who can fight against an invisible spirit? He enters the hearts of men like a smoke and teaches them all kinds of sin. He even fights against you, the immortal God, and so what can pitiful man do against him.....” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7) In this ancient view, man eventually would have “fallen”. Sedrach understood that God himself created the very essential precondition for Adam and Eve partaking of the tree of wisdom by expelling a vengeful Lucifer from heaven and then placing the willy lucifer in close proximity to the guileless but inexperienced Adam and Eve. And Sedrach ultimately understood that there was a perfectly legitimate reason for God to have done so.
One might consider that there is nothing wrong with the desire to have knowledge and wisdom. Ignorance was never a positive virtue. Knowledge and wisdom regarding good and evil and their discernment seems to be an essential characteristic of divinity. Lucifer’s specific promise to Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, their eyes should be “opened” and they would then “be as the gods, knowing good and evil” (Gen 3:5) was not a lie since God himself confirms that, having eaten of the fruit of the tree, “the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil” (Gen 3:22).
It is partly the ongoing discoveries of ancient contexts that caused later scholars to consider such histories from the view point of the ancients who described their beliefs in multiple ancient texts. For example, Gordon and Rendsburg write “If we examine the story in Genesis objectively, we see that, while many elements go into making up the whole picture, it is not so much an account of the “Fall of Man” but rather of the rise of man halfway to divinity.”
POST THREE OF FOUR
Their logic is that Adam DID obtain one characteristic of divinity (moral knowledge) and, when he obtains immortality, he will have gained another essential characteristic of divinity. Thus, it makes perfect sense for Adam to relate to Seth, what god said to him after Adam became mortal : “...He (god) spoke to me about this in Paradise after I picked some of the fruit in which death was hiding: ‘Adam, Adam do not fear. You wanted to be a god; I will make you a god, not right now, but after a space of many years. I am consigning you to death, ...But after a short time there will be mercy on you because you were created in my image, and I will not leave you to waste away in Sheol. (Testament of Adam 3:1-4)
In all such statements, in fact even during the period where God explained to Adam and Eve the many consequences of having eating of the tree of wisdom, no strict judgment is given regarding Adam’s character, but rather God gives Adam and Eve an objective description of the changed conditions their choice to gain wisdom entails. The elements of disobedience is present in the story, but only circumstantially. The modern tendency to stress “evil” and overlook the “good” in the text would have seemed unjustified to the ancients.
Nor does god abandon Adam and Eve after they eat from the tree of wisdom, but he continues to teach them to care for themselves; to sacrifice the firstfruits of Adam’s flocks and many other things : "And during the first week of the first jubilee Adam and his wife had been in the Garden of Eden for seven years tilling and guarding it. And we gave him work and we were teaching him to do everything which was appropriate for tilling...And he was guarding the garden from the birds and beasts and cattle and gathering its fruit and eating...” (Jubilees (the book of division) 3 15-16) Jewish Haggadah relates that “ he (Adam) was in very truth a prophet, and his wisdom a prophetic quality....for mankind owes all crafts to him,...(The Haggadah -The Ideal Man).
The ancient Christians understood that, after the Fall, God continued to Give Adam, the very knowledge and wisdom Adam sought, not only by the spirit of God, but by visitations of Angels. In the Apocalypse of Adam, Adam relates to his son Seth: Quote: “... I was sleeping in the thought of my heart, and I saw before me three men whose appearance I could not recognize because they were not from the powers of the God who created me. They surpassed [those powers in their] glory. The men [spoke] , saying to me, ‘Rise up, Adam, from the sleep of death, and hear about the aeon and the seed of that man to whom life has come, the one who came forth from you and from Eve your wife (that is, her progeny).... Then the vigor of our eternal knowledge perished in us, and feebleness pursued us. For this reason the days of our life became few, for I knew that I had become subject to the power of death. “Now then, my son Seth, I will reveal to you what was revealed to me by those men whom I once saw before me. (The Apocalypse of Adam 2:1-6-7, ch 3:1)
Adam then teaches Seth regarding the future and the evils that will occur among the children of men and the disastrous consequences of evil. He tells Seth about the redeemer. Again, these are the very things that Adam wanted to know and importantly, it is God who is seeing that Adam obtains this knowledge.
Adam was not only given knowledge by God but he says to the God regarding God’s son : "And behold, your word came to me and the Lord said to me, ‘Because your days are numbered, you have been made to cherish knowledge; ...” (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 27:2-3 (“your word” is a euphamism for the pre-mortal messiah)
The gaining of wisdom by partaking of the tree of wisdom was not a terrible mistake. It was part of God’s plan and original intention Thus the filling of Adam with “understanding and knowledge” was celebrated in the dead sea scroll text : Quote: “…You have done wonders of old, and awesome deeds long ago. You fashioned Adam, our father, in the image of Your glory; You breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and filled him with understanding and knowledge. You set him to rule over the garden of Eden that you had planted…and to walk about in a glorious land…" (The words of the Heavenly Lights 4Q504 - 506)
Though modern theories can certainly argue that the ancient Christians were wrong in their beliefs and their descriptions regarding Adam’s having gained knowledge and wisdom by eating of the tree of wisdom, still, I’ve never seen any modern theory regarding Adam that is as coherent and sensible as the ancient versions.
Part of the point in such an overview of early Judeo-Christian theology is to simply demonstrate that modern Christian theories regarding Adam and Eve are, in the main, quite different than early doctrines AND, the modern christians lack the same context and depth of meaning and understanding that the ancients had on these subjects. The data that modern Christianity has gained does not offset the data and context they have lost. This is part of the reason why restorationist Christians who want to restore early Christian doctrines will have a very difficult time with those who are convinced that the modern theories ARE the same as the ancient doctrines. (Or that they are somehow “better” than the original christian doctrines)
E) ADAM IS GIVEN KNOWLEDGE AND THE PROMISE OF FUTURE RESURRECTION AND IMMORTALITY
(“IT WAS ACCORDING TO GOD’S WILL THAT ADAM ACQUIRED WISDOM”) - Without this Context, modern theories often relegate the Atonement of christ to a hasty “PLAN B” necessitated by the “Fall of Adam” caused by a “clever lucifer” who scuttles a good hearted, but not-so-omniscient God’s INITIAL Plan.
Acquiring moral knowledge and wisdom is a good thing, and NOT itself evil, however, the PROCESS of gaining wisdom involves observation of and experience with evil, and consequences caused by evil. If early Judao-Christian textual descriptions are correct, then Adam was not “cursed” for gaining wisdom. God explains to Enoch regarding the “fall”: Quote: “...those whom I had blessed previously, them I did not curse; (and those whom I had not blessed previously, even them I did not curse) – neither mankind I cursed, nor the earth, nor any other creature, but only mankind’s evil fruit-bearing. This is why the fruit of doing good is sweat and exertion.....” (2nd Enoch 31:2-8)
“God said to Adam, ‘Because you transgressed my commandment and listened to your wife, cursed is the ground in your labors.” (Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) 24:1; 5)
After eating of the fruit Eve said to God : “My Lord, the serpent led me astray; I ate, and I became like the gods.” And My Father said unto the serpent, “Because thou hast done this thing, cursed art thou among all the beasts of the earth. Thou shalt walk upon thy belly all the days of thy life, and all thy seed [shall be accursed] throughout all generations on the earth. Thou shalt eat earth and ashes all thy time, and so shall all those that shall come forth from thee.” It was in this way that the serpent came to walk upon his belly, according to what My Father decreed for him. And He said unto the woman also, “Because thou hast done this thing thou shalt bring forth children in sorrow and sighing, and thou shalt turn to thy husband.” And similarly He turned to Adam, and said unto him, Cursed be the earth because of thy deeds. Thou shalt eat thy bread by the sweat of thy face, and all those who shall come out of thee shall do likewise. Behold, thou shalt die from this day onwards, because thou art earth, and thou shalt return again to the earth. Thou shalt live in the world a life of nine hundred and thirty years, and when death cometh upon thee thou shalt turn to the earth again. Thy soul shall abide in Amente, (Hades, or the spirit world) and thou shalt sit in black darkness for four and a half thousand of years . . . (Discourse on Abbaton)
Their logic is that Adam DID obtain one characteristic of divinity (moral knowledge) and, when he obtains immortality, he will have gained another essential characteristic of divinity. Thus, it makes perfect sense for Adam to relate to Seth, what god said to him after Adam became mortal : “...He (god) spoke to me about this in Paradise after I picked some of the fruit in which death was hiding: ‘Adam, Adam do not fear. You wanted to be a god; I will make you a god, not right now, but after a space of many years. I am consigning you to death, ...But after a short time there will be mercy on you because you were created in my image, and I will not leave you to waste away in Sheol. (Testament of Adam 3:1-4)
In all such statements, in fact even during the period where God explained to Adam and Eve the many consequences of having eating of the tree of wisdom, no strict judgment is given regarding Adam’s character, but rather God gives Adam and Eve an objective description of the changed conditions their choice to gain wisdom entails. The elements of disobedience is present in the story, but only circumstantially. The modern tendency to stress “evil” and overlook the “good” in the text would have seemed unjustified to the ancients.
Nor does god abandon Adam and Eve after they eat from the tree of wisdom, but he continues to teach them to care for themselves; to sacrifice the firstfruits of Adam’s flocks and many other things : "And during the first week of the first jubilee Adam and his wife had been in the Garden of Eden for seven years tilling and guarding it. And we gave him work and we were teaching him to do everything which was appropriate for tilling...And he was guarding the garden from the birds and beasts and cattle and gathering its fruit and eating...” (Jubilees (the book of division) 3 15-16) Jewish Haggadah relates that “ he (Adam) was in very truth a prophet, and his wisdom a prophetic quality....for mankind owes all crafts to him,...(The Haggadah -The Ideal Man).
The ancient Christians understood that, after the Fall, God continued to Give Adam, the very knowledge and wisdom Adam sought, not only by the spirit of God, but by visitations of Angels. In the Apocalypse of Adam, Adam relates to his son Seth: Quote: “... I was sleeping in the thought of my heart, and I saw before me three men whose appearance I could not recognize because they were not from the powers of the God who created me. They surpassed [those powers in their] glory. The men [spoke] , saying to me, ‘Rise up, Adam, from the sleep of death, and hear about the aeon and the seed of that man to whom life has come, the one who came forth from you and from Eve your wife (that is, her progeny).... Then the vigor of our eternal knowledge perished in us, and feebleness pursued us. For this reason the days of our life became few, for I knew that I had become subject to the power of death. “Now then, my son Seth, I will reveal to you what was revealed to me by those men whom I once saw before me. (The Apocalypse of Adam 2:1-6-7, ch 3:1)
Adam then teaches Seth regarding the future and the evils that will occur among the children of men and the disastrous consequences of evil. He tells Seth about the redeemer. Again, these are the very things that Adam wanted to know and importantly, it is God who is seeing that Adam obtains this knowledge.
Adam was not only given knowledge by God but he says to the God regarding God’s son : "And behold, your word came to me and the Lord said to me, ‘Because your days are numbered, you have been made to cherish knowledge; ...” (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 27:2-3 (“your word” is a euphamism for the pre-mortal messiah)
The gaining of wisdom by partaking of the tree of wisdom was not a terrible mistake. It was part of God’s plan and original intention Thus the filling of Adam with “understanding and knowledge” was celebrated in the dead sea scroll text : Quote: “…You have done wonders of old, and awesome deeds long ago. You fashioned Adam, our father, in the image of Your glory; You breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and filled him with understanding and knowledge. You set him to rule over the garden of Eden that you had planted…and to walk about in a glorious land…" (The words of the Heavenly Lights 4Q504 - 506)
Though modern theories can certainly argue that the ancient Christians were wrong in their beliefs and their descriptions regarding Adam’s having gained knowledge and wisdom by eating of the tree of wisdom, still, I’ve never seen any modern theory regarding Adam that is as coherent and sensible as the ancient versions.
Part of the point in such an overview of early Judeo-Christian theology is to simply demonstrate that modern Christian theories regarding Adam and Eve are, in the main, quite different than early doctrines AND, the modern christians lack the same context and depth of meaning and understanding that the ancients had on these subjects. The data that modern Christianity has gained does not offset the data and context they have lost. This is part of the reason why restorationist Christians who want to restore early Christian doctrines will have a very difficult time with those who are convinced that the modern theories ARE the same as the ancient doctrines. (Or that they are somehow “better” than the original christian doctrines)
E) ADAM IS GIVEN KNOWLEDGE AND THE PROMISE OF FUTURE RESURRECTION AND IMMORTALITY
(“IT WAS ACCORDING TO GOD’S WILL THAT ADAM ACQUIRED WISDOM”) - Without this Context, modern theories often relegate the Atonement of christ to a hasty “PLAN B” necessitated by the “Fall of Adam” caused by a “clever lucifer” who scuttles a good hearted, but not-so-omniscient God’s INITIAL Plan.
Acquiring moral knowledge and wisdom is a good thing, and NOT itself evil, however, the PROCESS of gaining wisdom involves observation of and experience with evil, and consequences caused by evil. If early Judao-Christian textual descriptions are correct, then Adam was not “cursed” for gaining wisdom. God explains to Enoch regarding the “fall”: Quote: “...those whom I had blessed previously, them I did not curse; (and those whom I had not blessed previously, even them I did not curse) – neither mankind I cursed, nor the earth, nor any other creature, but only mankind’s evil fruit-bearing. This is why the fruit of doing good is sweat and exertion.....” (2nd Enoch 31:2-8)
“God said to Adam, ‘Because you transgressed my commandment and listened to your wife, cursed is the ground in your labors.” (Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) 24:1; 5)
After eating of the fruit Eve said to God : “My Lord, the serpent led me astray; I ate, and I became like the gods.” And My Father said unto the serpent, “Because thou hast done this thing, cursed art thou among all the beasts of the earth. Thou shalt walk upon thy belly all the days of thy life, and all thy seed [shall be accursed] throughout all generations on the earth. Thou shalt eat earth and ashes all thy time, and so shall all those that shall come forth from thee.” It was in this way that the serpent came to walk upon his belly, according to what My Father decreed for him. And He said unto the woman also, “Because thou hast done this thing thou shalt bring forth children in sorrow and sighing, and thou shalt turn to thy husband.” And similarly He turned to Adam, and said unto him, Cursed be the earth because of thy deeds. Thou shalt eat thy bread by the sweat of thy face, and all those who shall come out of thee shall do likewise. Behold, thou shalt die from this day onwards, because thou art earth, and thou shalt return again to the earth. Thou shalt live in the world a life of nine hundred and thirty years, and when death cometh upon thee thou shalt turn to the earth again. Thy soul shall abide in Amente, (Hades, or the spirit world) and thou shalt sit in black darkness for four and a half thousand of years . . . (Discourse on Abbaton)
POST FOUR OF FOUR
In such early descriptions, Lucifer is cursed, the earth is “cursed”, but Adam and Eve are NOT cursed per se, but rather God describes the vicissitudes and difficulties Adam and Eve will undergo as they gain wisdom. In fact, God continues to support them and, he promises them redemption, if they will repent and learn to live by moral laws.
Jewish Haggadah explains “As it was, when God dismissed them from Paradise, He did not allow the divine quality of justice to prevail entirely. He associated mercy with it." (The Haggadah - The Punishment) (The LDS will recognize profound parallels of this same early doctrine though in greater detail)
Upon realizing that he will die, multiple early texts relate Adams prayer to God to "give him from the Fruit of the tree of Life" so as to avoid death and to regain his immortal state. 1 “And the Lord turned and said to Adam, ‘From now on I will not allow you to be in Paradise.2 And Adam answered and said, ‘Lord, give me from the tree of life that I might eat before I am cast out.’ 3 Then the Lord spoke to Adam, ‘You shall not now take from it;...that you might not taste of it and be immortal forever, but that you might have the strife which the enemy has placed in you. But when you come out of Paradise, if you guard yourself from all evil, preferring death to it, at the time of the resurrection I will raise you again and then there shall be given to you from the tree of life, and you shall be immortal forever.’ (Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) 28:1-4) Several texts confirm this promise.
For example, Jewish Haggadah relates : “Adam’s prayer, to be given of the fruit of the Tree of Life, was turned aside, with the promise, however, that if he would lead a pious life, he would be given of the fruit on the day of resurrection, and he would then live forever. (The Haggadah - The Punishment) However, he cannot live a "pious life" unless he first knew to choose "piety".
In the testament of Adam, Three angels come to visit Adam and they teach Adam important truths about this world, about evils that will occur and the disastrous consequences of men’s evils. Of the angels teaching, Adam tells his son Seth :
“You have heard my son, that God is going to come into the world after a long time, (he will be) conceived of a virgin and put on a body, be born like a human being, and grow up as a child. He will perform signs and wonders on the earth, ........2 He spoke to me about this in Paradise after I picked some of the fruit in which death was hiding: ‘Adam, Adam do not fear. You wanted to be a god; I will make you a god, not right now, but after a space of many years. I am consigning you to death, and the maggot and the worm will eat your body.’3...But after a short time there will be mercy on you because you were created in my image, and I will not leave you to waste away in Sheol. For your sake I will be born of the Virgin Mary. For your sake I will taste death and enter the house of the dead....4'And after three days, while I am in the tomb, I will raise up the body I received from you. And I will set you at the right hand of my divinity, and I will make you a god just like you wanted. And I will receive favor from God, and I will restore to you and to your posterity that which is the justice of heaven.” (Testament of Adam 3:1-4)
Thus, in this early judeo-christian model, God intervenes in the evolution of pre-creation spirits with the intent to educate them by using mortality as part of an aeon of education, a tutoring that is designed for their ultimate benefit. In this model, he is not a God whose initial plan was wrecked by a wiley and clever opponent (Satan) and who then had to come up with a hastily prepared “plan B” (a savior). Instead, it was known from the beginning that Adam (and the rest of mankind) would fall and be exposed to BOTH evil and good and gain knowledge and choose for himself if he would choose the good or the evil and gain experience and wisdom that would give him understanding and appreciation of the difference between good and evil and judgment and mercy and allow him (and all mankind) to learn principles in preparation to ultimately, live in a social heaven..
In any case, whatever model you come up with and adopt, I hope your spiritual journey is good.
Clear
Φιφύφιω
In such early descriptions, Lucifer is cursed, the earth is “cursed”, but Adam and Eve are NOT cursed per se, but rather God describes the vicissitudes and difficulties Adam and Eve will undergo as they gain wisdom. In fact, God continues to support them and, he promises them redemption, if they will repent and learn to live by moral laws.
Jewish Haggadah explains “As it was, when God dismissed them from Paradise, He did not allow the divine quality of justice to prevail entirely. He associated mercy with it." (The Haggadah - The Punishment) (The LDS will recognize profound parallels of this same early doctrine though in greater detail)
Upon realizing that he will die, multiple early texts relate Adams prayer to God to "give him from the Fruit of the tree of Life" so as to avoid death and to regain his immortal state. 1 “And the Lord turned and said to Adam, ‘From now on I will not allow you to be in Paradise.2 And Adam answered and said, ‘Lord, give me from the tree of life that I might eat before I am cast out.’ 3 Then the Lord spoke to Adam, ‘You shall not now take from it;...that you might not taste of it and be immortal forever, but that you might have the strife which the enemy has placed in you. But when you come out of Paradise, if you guard yourself from all evil, preferring death to it, at the time of the resurrection I will raise you again and then there shall be given to you from the tree of life, and you shall be immortal forever.’ (Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) 28:1-4) Several texts confirm this promise.
For example, Jewish Haggadah relates : “Adam’s prayer, to be given of the fruit of the Tree of Life, was turned aside, with the promise, however, that if he would lead a pious life, he would be given of the fruit on the day of resurrection, and he would then live forever. (The Haggadah - The Punishment) However, he cannot live a "pious life" unless he first knew to choose "piety".
In the testament of Adam, Three angels come to visit Adam and they teach Adam important truths about this world, about evils that will occur and the disastrous consequences of men’s evils. Of the angels teaching, Adam tells his son Seth :
“You have heard my son, that God is going to come into the world after a long time, (he will be) conceived of a virgin and put on a body, be born like a human being, and grow up as a child. He will perform signs and wonders on the earth, ........2 He spoke to me about this in Paradise after I picked some of the fruit in which death was hiding: ‘Adam, Adam do not fear. You wanted to be a god; I will make you a god, not right now, but after a space of many years. I am consigning you to death, and the maggot and the worm will eat your body.’3...But after a short time there will be mercy on you because you were created in my image, and I will not leave you to waste away in Sheol. For your sake I will be born of the Virgin Mary. For your sake I will taste death and enter the house of the dead....4'And after three days, while I am in the tomb, I will raise up the body I received from you. And I will set you at the right hand of my divinity, and I will make you a god just like you wanted. And I will receive favor from God, and I will restore to you and to your posterity that which is the justice of heaven.” (Testament of Adam 3:1-4)
Thus, in this early judeo-christian model, God intervenes in the evolution of pre-creation spirits with the intent to educate them by using mortality as part of an aeon of education, a tutoring that is designed for their ultimate benefit. In this model, he is not a God whose initial plan was wrecked by a wiley and clever opponent (Satan) and who then had to come up with a hastily prepared “plan B” (a savior). Instead, it was known from the beginning that Adam (and the rest of mankind) would fall and be exposed to BOTH evil and good and gain knowledge and choose for himself if he would choose the good or the evil and gain experience and wisdom that would give him understanding and appreciation of the difference between good and evil and judgment and mercy and allow him (and all mankind) to learn principles in preparation to ultimately, live in a social heaven..
In any case, whatever model you come up with and adopt, I hope your spiritual journey is good.
Clear
Φιφύφιω
Last edited:
Cooky
Veteran Member
What is it that you believe?
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
Don't go pulling in your opinion that it "doesn't jive with the original Hebrew".
There are no original scriptures, they were all burned. So you cannot make such bogus claims on what you claim is the "original" Hebrew scriptures, they don't exist.
Put putting that aside, your claim also lays the foundation that there are many more "errors" in the bible, making it shaky ground to rely on. And that makes in not at all "god inspired" as the claim goes.
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
No, this is his original post that I replied to:
"
Earthling said: ↑
No, you are missing the point in translation. If they ate from the tree they would die, if they didn't they would live forever. They died. The Hebrew says "in dying you shall die""
Now he's claiming that :
"f they ate from the tree they would die, if they didn't they would live forever."
Which is nonsense. And he's claiming he's "right" because he believes it means that, but won't provide any verses or other proof to back this up. But there is no such reference in the entire bible to back him up, so he's just obfuscating.