The OT = UGH

[Riverwolf]

Doesn't your own texts indicate that people will be destroyed if they commit abominations? How does wanton destruction fit karmicly within your Eastern philosophy?

Uh... dude, I follow Asatru, now. Celto-Germanic Neopaganism.

In any case, not that I saw.

 

[Shermana]

Ok so from what I'm reading, Asatru does in fact believe that Valhalla is reserved for Odin's warrior elite who proved valor on the battlefield, do you agree to this?

 

[Riverwolf]

Apparently Asatru is a Revivalism of Norse Paganry.

Hmmm....if I recall right, Norse beliefs indicated the way you could get to heaven was by slaughtering enemies and dying in battle. Does Asatru do away with that part?

In the Viking conception, yes, but there's more to Asatru than that variation. For the record, I don't hail pirates.

In this cosmology, by my reckoning, both sides in war go to Valhalla to join Odin for the final battle of Ragnarok. It's just a delay, however; all, including the Gods, will eventually die and go to Hel (which isn't a land of suffering; it's just the realm of the dead.)

Personally, I'm not all that interested. That conception is based more on the Prose Edda; in the Poetic Edda, and likely in previous variations, what happens after death isn't all that important. What's important is what you do in this life.

 

[Shermana]

Well either way it sounds like war and destruction is glorified. You can see where this going.

 

[Riverwolf]

Well either way it sounds like war and destruction is glorified. You can see where this going.

Yup.

But there's a difference between meeting the enemy on the battlefield, and slaughtering men, women, and children who are noncombatants. And even then, there's a world of difference between both of those, and outright genocide. Even the Viking pirates never tried to wipe out the Irish and British off the face of the Earth, and neither did the Vikings who were loyal to the Norwegian and Danish Kings who tried to make Britain theirs.

And I DON'T hail King William the Conquerer.

 

[Shermana]

Bah, the Vikings were notorious for slaughtering and pillaging and raiding and enslaving civilians. They would have totally wiped out the British isles clean if they could.

 

[Thana]

This is an issue that really frustrates me, Because I mean, What do you people expect a book written for people thousands of years ago to be like?

The Old testament was written for people who lived in a time where Might was Right, And an eye for an eye. Of course the OT was going to reflect that culture, Or else how would God have reached those people? They were savages and barbarians, Yet you expect them to understand modern culture and civility?

Understanding the culture of that time will help you understand the OT.
Also, Common sense.

 

[dgirl1986]

This is an issue that really frustrates me, Because I mean, What do you people expect a book written for people thousands of years ago to be like?

The Old testament was written for people who lived in a time where Might was Right, And an eye for an eye. Of course the OT was going to reflect that culture, Or else how would God have reached those people? They were savages and barbarians, Yet you expect them to understand modern culture and civility?

Understanding the culture of that time will help you understand the OT.
Also, Common sense.

Maybe if more christians understood this, non christians wouldnt find it so much of an issue.

 

[Thana]

Maybe if more christians understood this, non christians wouldnt find it so much of an issue.

I totally agree! But so many are uneducated or misinformed, Spreading their uneducated and misinformed opinions around. It's disconcerting and frustrating.

 

[dgirl1986]

I totally agree! But so many are uneducated or misinformed, Spreading their uneducated and misinformed opinions around. It's disconcerting and frustrating.

Especially for those on the receiving end.

 

[CMike]

A chunk of the cannanites were neutrals.

I don't recall that G-D said to wipe out all the cannanites including the women and children.

Perhaps you can paste those passages?

 

[Sleeppy]

I totally agree! But so many are uneducated or misinformed, Spreading their uneducated and misinformed opinions around. It's disconcerting and frustrating.

It's not hard to understand either position.

Not only do/did these laws and writings support various forms of ignorance and savagery, they incorporated that ignorance into both past and current perceptions of God and reality.

People have a right to be concerned, and everyone involved should be.

 

[CMike]

Some of the 613 commandments.

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

Love and Brotherhood

1. To love all human beings who are of the covenant (Lev. 19:18) (CCA60). See Love and Brotherhood.
2. Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16) (CCN82). See Love and Brotherhood.
3. Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17) (CCN48). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
4. Not to carry tales (Lev. 19:16) (CCN77). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
5. Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17) (CCN78). See Love and Brotherhood.
6. Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN80).
7. Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN81).
8. Not to put any Jew to shame (Lev. 19:17) (CCN79).
9. Not to curse any other Israelite (Lev. 19:14) (by implication: if you may not curse those who cannot hear, you certainly may not curse those who can) (CCN45).
10. Not to give occasion to the simple-minded to stumble on the road (Lev. 19:14) (this includes doing anything that will cause another to sin) (CCN76).
11. To rebuke the sinner (Lev. 19:17) (CCA72).
12. To relieve a neighbor of his burden and help to unload his beast (Ex. 23:5) (CCA70). See Love and Brotherhood.
13. To assist in replacing the load upon a neighbor's beast (Deut. 22:4) (CCA71). See Love and Brotherhood.
14. Not to leave a beast, that has fallen down beneath its burden, unaided (Deut. 22:4) (CCN183). See Love and Brotherhood.

The Poor and Unfortunate

1. Not to afflict an orphan or a widow (Ex. 22:21) (CCN51).
2. Not to reap the entire field (Lev. 19:9; Lev. 23:22) (negative) (CCI6).
3. To leave the unreaped corner of the field or orchard for the poor (Lev. 19:9) (affirmative) (CCI1).
4. Not to gather gleanings (the ears that have fallen to the ground while reaping) (Lev. 19:9) (negative) (CCI7).
5. To leave the gleanings for the poor (Lev. 19:9) (affirmative) (CCI2).
6. Not to gather ol'loth (the imperfect clusters) of the vineyard (Lev. 19:10) (negative) (CCI8).
7. To leave ol'loth (the imperfect clusters) of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10; Deut. 24:21) (affirmative) (CCI3).
8. Not to gather the peret (grapes) that have fallen to the ground (Lev. 19:10) (negative) (CCI9).
9. To leave peret (the single grapes) of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10) (affirmative) (CCI4).
10. Not to return to take a forgotten sheaf (Deut. 24:19) This applies to all fruit trees (Deut. 24:20) (negative) (CC10).
11. To leave the forgotten sheaves for the poor (Deut. 24:19-20) (affirmative) (CCI5).
12. Not to refrain from maintaining a poor man and giving him what he needs (Deut. 15:7) (CCN62). See Tzedakah: Charity.
13. To give charity according to one's means (Deut. 15:11) (CCA38). See Tzedakah: Charity.

Business Practices

1. Not to do wrong in buying or selling (Lev. 25:14) (CCN47).
2. Not to make a loan to an Israelite on interest (Lev. 25:37) (CCN54).
3. Not to borrow on interest (Deut. 23:20) (because this would cause the lender to sin) (CCN55).
4. Not to take part in any usurious transaction between borrower and lender, neither as a surety, nor as a witness, nor as a writer of the bond for them (Ex. 22:24) (CCN53).
5. To lend to a poor person (Ex. 22:24) (even though the passage says "if you lend" it is understood as obligatory) (CCA62).
6. Not to demand from a poor man repayment of his debt, when the creditor knows that he cannot pay, nor press him (Ex. 22:24) (CCN52).
7. Not to take in pledge utensils used in preparing food (Deut. 24:6) (CCN58).
8. Not to exact a pledge from a debtor by force (Deut. 24:10) (CCN59).
9. Not to keep the pledge from its owner at the time when he needs it (Deut. 24:12) (CCN61).
10. To return a pledge to its owner (Deut. 24:13) (CCA63).
11. Not to take a pledge from a widow (Deut. 24:17) (CCN60).
12. Not to commit fraud in measuring (Lev. 19:35) (CCN83).
13. To ensure that scales and weights are correct (Lev. 19:36) (affirmative).
14. Not to possess inaccurate measures and weights (Deut. 25:13-14) (CCN84).

Employees, Servants and Slaves

1. Not to delay payment of a hired man's wages (Lev. 19:13) (CCN38).
2. That the hired laborer shall be permitted to eat of the produce he is reaping (Deut. 23:25-26) (CCA65).
3. That the hired laborer shall not take more than he can eat (Deut. 23:25) (CCN187).
4. That a hired laborer shall not eat produce that is not being harvested (Deut. 23:26) (CCN186).
5. To pay wages to the hired man at the due time (Deut. 24:15) (CCA66).
6. To deal judicially with the Hebrew bondman in accordance with the laws appertaining to him (Ex. 21:2-6) (affirmative).
7. Not to compel the Hebrew servant to do the work of a slave (Lev. 25:39) (negative).
8. Not to sell a Hebrew servant as a slave (Lev. 25:42) (negative).
9. Not to treat a Hebrew servant rigorously (Lev. 25:43) (negative).
10. Not to permit a gentile to treat harshly a Hebrew bondman sold to him (Lev. 25:53) (negative).
11. Not to send away a Hebrew bondman servant empty handed, when he is freed from service (Deut. 15:13) (negative).
12. To bestow liberal gifts upon the Hebrew bondsman (at the end of his term of service), and the same should be done to a Hebrew bondwoman (Deut. 15:14) (affirmative).
13. To redeem a Hebrew maid-servant (Ex. 21:8) (affirmative).
14. Not to sell a Hebrew maid-servant to another person (Ex. 21:8) (negative).
15. To espouse a Hebrew maid-servant (Ex. 21:8-9) (affirmative).
16. To keep the Canaanite slave forever (Lev. 25:46) (affirmative).
17. Not to surrender a slave, who has fled to the land of Israel, to his owner who lives outside Palestine (Deut. 23:16) (negative).
18. Not to wrong such a slave (Deut. 23:17) (negative).
19. Not to muzzle a beast, while it is working in produce which it can eat and enjoy (Deut. 25:4) (CCN188).

 

[Riverwolf]

Bah, the Vikings were notorious for slaughtering and pillaging and raiding and enslaving civilians. They would have totally wiped out the British isles clean if they could.

Doubtful. The pirate Vikings were after the same thing that pirates 200 years ago were: wealth. They plundered Christian churches and monasteries because of the wealth they had.

The armies of Vikings loyal to the various Norse Kings were like any army; they were trying to conquer, not commit genocide.

'Sides, as I implied, I don't follow Viking-based Asatru. In any case, not all Vikings were killers; Swedish Vikings were primarily traders, and many Norwegian Vikings were more interested in exploring. Conceptually, the term "Viking" means "adventurer."

 

[Shermana]

They also plundered and pillaged Eastern Europe and Northern France, and when they did, it was often filled with much massacre and taking of women, whether there were rich monasteries or not. But the rich monasteries definitely attracted their interest. And when they raided them, they slaughtered the monks and took back the womenz.

 

[Riverwolf]

A chunk of the cannanites were neutrals.

I don't recall that G-D said to wipe out all the cannanites including the women and children.

Perhaps you can paste those passages?

Joshua 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city[Jericho], both man and woman, both young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ***, with the edge of the sword.

Joshua 8:7 And ye shall rise up from the ambush, and take possession of the city[Ai]; for HaShem your G-d will deliver it into your hand.
Joshua 8:8 And it shall be, when ye have seized upon the city, that ye shall set the city on fire; according to the word of HaShem shall ye do; see, I have commanded you.'
(NOTE: It's not God speaking here; it's Joshua himself.)
Joshua 8:24 And it came to pass, when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, even in the wilderness wherein they pursued them, and they were all fallen by the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all Israel returned unto Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword.
Joshua 8:25 And all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of Ai.
Joshua 8:26 For Joshua drew not back his hand, wherewith he stretched out the javelin, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
Joshua 8:27 Only the cattle and the spoil of that city Israel took for a prey unto themselves, according unto the word of HaShem which He commanded Joshua.

Pretty sure it was after reading these parts that I stopped reading in disgust. Perhaps not all the Canaanites, but every single individual in at least these two cities, men, women, and children. This was a time of city-states, so with these two cities died entire cultures.

No, I cannot stomach such things being glorified as good, whether from Norse Sagas or Middle-Eastern legends. It's disgusting.

 

[Riverwolf]

They also plundered and pillaged Eastern Europe and Northern France, and when they did, it was often filled with much massacre and taking of women, whether there were rich monasteries or not. But the rich monasteries definitely attracted their interest. And when they raided them, they slaughtered the monks and took back the womenz.

And I don't hail such people, regarding them as no better than petty bandits.

 

[Koldo]

This is an issue that really frustrates me, Because I mean, What do you people expect a book written for people thousands of years ago to be like?

The Old testament was written for people who lived in a time where Might was Right, And an eye for an eye. Of course the OT was going to reflect that culture, Or else how would God have reached those people? They were savages and barbarians, Yet you expect them to understand modern culture and civility?

Understanding the culture of that time will help you understand the OT.
Also, Common sense.

You are either underestimating them or overestimating us.
With proper guidance from a powerful god, that culture could have been changed rather quickly.

 

[nazz]

You are either underestimating them or overestimating us.
With proper guidance from a powerful god, that culture could have been changed rather quickly.

Perhaps that god thought in terms of "baby steps"

 

[Thana]

You are either underestimating them or overestimating us.
With proper guidance from a powerful god, that culture could have been changed rather quickly.

I disagree, I think you're overestimating them. Can you not understand how different their culture was, How different their society was?

God ruled by fear, because that's all they understood. They were cruel, harsh primitive people who didn't fully understand or appreciate or value concepts like forgiveness, mercy, love, understanding and self-sacrifice.

And even though Jesus came and changed all that, Try and imagine a world without Jesus ever having been in it.