The OT = UGH

[nazz]

I don't see how that contradicts what I said.

Because Judean =/= Pharisee and the Pharisees were not believers in Jesus.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Because Judean =/= Pharisee and the Pharisees were not believers in Jesus.

I'm still not seeing what you're trying to point out. I was just saying that Jesus wasn't condemning all Jews (which wouldn't make since sense He is a Jew Himself), just those who did not accept Him.

 

[nazz]

I'm still not seeing what you're trying to point out. I was just saying that Jesus wasn't condemning all Jews (which wouldn't make since sense He is a Jew Himself), just those who did not accept Him.

And I agree with he was not referring to all Jews. But it is not correct to say he was referring to the Pharisees. His was referring to his own Judean followers.

 

[Me Myself]

I'm still not seeing what you're trying to point out. I was just saying that Jesus wasn't condemning all Jews (which wouldn't make since sense He is a Jew Himself), just those who did not accept Him.

He did no concdemn them either.

"Forgive them father, for they know not what they are doing."

 

[Me Myself]

It is anti-Semitic to say that the Jews are of the devil while the Christians some how managed to get the real truth. According to the OT, Jews, particularly the line of Jacob, will be a guiding light for all people even gentiles. Believing that God changed his mind about his chosen people doesn't make a very good argument for Christian theology.

I think this sums it up pretty well:

It is anti-semitic to say the jews are from the devil *period*

Smply believing the jews are wrong about who the messiah is is not anti-semitic.

Of course, believing they and everyone who gets it wrong diserves hell is not that much anti-semitic as it is equally diabolic to the human race as a whole.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And I agree with he was not referring to all Jews. But it is not correct to say he was referring to the Pharisees. His was referring to his own Judean followers.

Well, I was using the Pharisees as an example. I thought He was speaking to a group of Pharisees because they were mentioned a few verses earlier.

He did no concdemn them either.

"Forgive them father, for they know not what they are doing."

I meant condemning their beliefs.

Is anyone going to nit-pick today?

 

[nazz]

Well, I was using the Pharisees as an example. I thought He was speaking to a group of Pharisees because they were mentioned a few verses earlier.

Is anyone going to nit-pick today?

Sorry, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. But in debates of this sort it is important to be clear because people will challenge.

 

[nazz]

I think this sums it up pretty well:

It is anti-semitic to say the jews are from the devil *period*

Smply believing the jews are wrong about who the messiah is is not anti-semitic.

Of course, believing they and everyone who gets it wrong diserves hell is not that much anti-semitic as it is equally diabolic to the human race as a whole.

I think Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church is of the devil.

If anyone wants to call me anti-Christian for saying so so be it.

 

[Me Myself]

Well, I was using the Pharisees as an example. I thought He was speaking to a group of Pharisees because they were mentioned a few verses earlier.



I meant condemning their beliefs.

Is anyone going to nit-pick today?

Dont expect me to guess what you meant

I replied to what I saw. If I had guessed correctly I would have phrased it as a question like "you mean their beleifs?"

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Sorry, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. But in debates of this sort it is important to be clear because people will challenge.

It's okay. I just didn't see what you were getting at.

Dont expect me to guess what you meant

I replied to what I saw. If I had guessed correctly I would have phrased it as a question like "you mean their beleifs?"

Lol. I guess I'm not expressing myself as well as I could be.

 

[idav]

Jesus is a Jew and His first followers were Jews. He wasn't talking about the Jews as a whole, He was talking about those who refused to see, such as the Pharisees, who were but one sect of Jews.

These days mainstream Christianity sounds a lot like the Pharisees. Jesus rejected the dogma of the time and he would reject current dogma as well. Nevertheless, Jesus advocated Jewish scripture as truth. I suppose Jesus called them the devil as well as them calling Jesus wicked.

Jews bickering about scripture against one another is one thing but it is a whole other ballgame when Christians start bickering against Jews especially when the Christians are sounding like the Pharisees that Jesus struggled so much against. It really doesn't surprise me that many Christian denominations would judge Judaism so harshly especially for those denominations that already judge their fellow Christians so harshly.

 

[idav]

I think Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church is of the devil.

If anyone wants to call me anti-Christian for saying so so be it.

I wouldn't call you anti-Christ but Fred Phelps might, LOL.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church is of the devil.

If anyone wants to call me anti-Christian for saying so so be it.

I don't think anyone is going to disagree much with you there. He knows nothing of love and compassion.

 

[nazz]

These days mainstream Christianity sounds a lot like the Pharisees.

So true!

Jesus rejected the dogma of the time and he would reject current dogma as well.

I agree!

Nevertheless, Jesus advocated Jewish scripture as truth.

Some of it, sure.

Jews bickering about scripture against one another is one thing but it is a whole other ballgame when Christians start bickering against Jews especially when the Christians are sounding like the Pharisees that Jesus struggled so much against. It really doesn't surprise me that many Christian denominations would judge Judaism so harshly especially for those denominations that already judge their fellow Christians so harshly.

I hope I am not coming off as judging Jews or Judaism. I respect Jews and the Jewish religion but I also recognize the Judaism of today is very different from the Judaism of Jesus' day which itself was quite different from the religion practiced by the ancient Israelites.

 

[Me Myself]

I think Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church is of the devil.

If anyone wants to call me anti-Christian for saying so so be it.

Saying one specific jew is of the devil wouldnt be anti-semitic either.

It would be antisemitic to think hews in general are from the devil.

I dont think even believing that judaism as a religion is from the devil to be antisemitic.

As in racist I mean one can very well think down on beliefs. The problem is when we de-humanize people.

 

[nazz]

Saying one specific jew is of the devil wouldnt be anti-semitic either.

It would be antisemitic to think hews in general are from the devil.

I dont think even believing that judaism as a religion is from the devil to be antisemitic.

As in racist I mean one can very well think down on beliefs. The problem is when we de-humanize people.

Agreed

 

[Shermana]

These days mainstream Christianity sounds a lot like the Pharisees. Jesus rejected the dogma of the time and he would reject current dogma as well. Nevertheless, Jesus advocated Jewish scripture as truth. I suppose Jesus called them the devil as well as them calling Jesus wicked.

Jews bickering about scripture against one another is one thing but it is a whole other ballgame when Christians start bickering against Jews especially when the Christians are sounding like the Pharisees that Jesus struggled so much against. It really doesn't surprise me that many Christian denominations would judge Judaism so harshly especially for those denominations that already judge their fellow Christians so harshly.

What's truly ironic and hilarious, is that when you point out that Christianity is based on their dreaded "Legalism", they point at you and call you a Pharisee merely for saying that Jesus taught obedience to the Law and promoted a works-based salvation. Anything less than "Faith alone" and anti-Jewish-Law will get you called a Pharisee with most Christians.

Oh the irony.

 

[Shermana]

First off there was no OT in existence when Jesus taught. There was not even the clearly defined canon we know as the Tanakh today. What existed was an assorted collection of sacred writings that different groups of Jews assented to and others did not. Jesus certainly confirmed there was truth in those Scriptures but he never suggested that everything contained in those Scriptures was absolute truth. In fact in a number of places he clearly contradicted that idea.

Who said the Jews "lost out"? All the earliest followers of Jesus were Jews. Jesus was just criticizing a group of Jews he believed went off the mark.

yeah, so?

Jesus didn't say anything in the scriptures he quoted was false, what he said was that the Pharisees had misinterpreted them outside of their intended meaning. For instance, in terms of Divorce, he was not saying anything different than what Shammai said.

But yes, the earliest followers of Jesus were all Torah obedient Jews, even the Church of Jerusalem after Paul still obeyed the Jewish commandments as an integral part of the religion. This has been a problem best swept under the rug for most Christian theologians and scholars for centuries.

 

[Shermana]

In all honesty, I almost always forget about Revelations. It is that last little obscure book at the end of the Bible which just falls out of attention for me.

Also I lastly do not recall it depicting god as the head general of doom and gloom by ordering death by the thousands. It is more like a prophecy about the Devil's up-rise.

But then again I could have forgotten more than what I think.

Oh it most assuredly says that God is the head general of the doom and gloom.

Also, the Gospels aren't too far removed. Jesus warns explicitly about destruction and mayhem and suffering all the same.

Also, when you look at some of the books that didn't make the final cut to the "orthodox" canon, the NT apocrypha is loaded with some "OT"-style death and destruction. Part of why I like it!

The attempt to depict the NT god as different than the "OT" is a tactic by those who can't get around all the pesky Judaic influences when they try to separate it into something completely different, and it ultimately is, in my view, utter desperation, going so far as to ignore vast swaths of their own scripture to arrive at some Kumbayah happy-sappy version of god, because they know that the "OT"-depiction will put off those who don't have the same Theological understanding as the Jews on the matter.

 

[Levite]

These days mainstream Christianity sounds a lot like the Pharisees.

I assure you, Christianity-- mainstream or otherwise-- has never sounded like the Pharisees, who were our Rabbis of the Talmud.