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The Pagan, Buddhist, and Hindu Thread

syo

Well-Known Member
Is there a purpose for this dream? Any significant reason it is happening and what will come of it?
Purpose? Yes, there is a purpose.

There is a realm of Gods, Supreme Beings. In this realm, there is a Deity called ''brahman''. At one point, brahman felt alone, and said ''I don't want to be alone''. Instantly, it multiplied and the Big Bang happened. So, our purpose is to keep each other company by just being here.
 

dannerz

Member
I have a comment about enlightenment and liberation.

Enlightenment is not a binary, switch it on, switch it off, kind of thing.
It's unique and personal. It is usually a very long term process.

Liberation is also more difficult and more easy based on the person,
and their life and associations with other beings.
Our quality of life and after life depend on our development.
Soul-strengthening, mind-clarity, is a big factor.

my religion is called Right Reason.
It is derived from buddha and the tao.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Both enlightenment and liberation are ambiguous terms. They mean different things in different religions, cultures and to different individuals.
How are you using the terms here?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Enlightenment is not a binary, switch it on, switch it off, kind of thing.
It's unique and personal. It is usually a very long term process.
Yes, as I believe it is a "work in progress" thingy.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
It's unique and personal. It is usually a very long term process.
Liberation is also more difficult and more easy based on the person,
and their life and associations with other beings.
Our quality of life and after life depend on our development.
Soul-strengthening, mind-clarity, is a big factor.
Enlightenment is sometimes quick and sometimes a long journey. See Buddha undertook a long journey, but when it happened, it was quick.
IMHO, enlightenment and liberation are the same. Liberation is a corrolary to enlightenment, they come together.
 

dannerz

Member
"Enlightenment is sometimes quick and sometimes a long journey. See Buddha undertook a long journey, but when it happened, it was quick.
IMHO, enlightenment and liberation are the same. Liberation is a corrolary to enlightenment, they come together."

This is, of course, true. Thanks for mentioning it.
 

Secret Chief

Vetted Member
What, if any, spring time festivals/rituals do you observe?

What are some of the traditions?

What are some of the stories?

And what are some of the foods celebrated? (You can tell I haven't had breakfast yet.)
At the Buddhist priory I attended the rigours of a good zazen session were always followed by tea and biscuits. But then we are Brits! The biscuit selection was so good that we got infiltrated by Quakers. :grinning:
 

Secret Chief

Vetted Member
Just read this and thought I'd share it.

"The presentational mode of communication is very important in Zen Buddhist teaching. This mode can be clarified by Susanne Langer's landmark book on symbolic logic called 'Philosophy in a New Key.' She distinguishes between two kinds of language: 'Presentational' and 'Discursive.' The presentational might be in words, but it might also be a laugh, a cry, a blow, or any other kind of communicative action. It is poetical and nonexplanatory—the expression of Zen. The discursive, by contrast, is prosaic and explanatory....The discursive has a place in a Zen discourse like this one, but it tends to dilute direct teaching."

- What Is Zen Buddhism Really About?
 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
Just read this and thought I'd share it.

"The presentational mode of communication is very important in Zen Buddhist teaching. This mode can be clarified by Susanne Langer's landmark book on symbolic logic called 'Philosophy in a New Key.' She distinguishes between two kinds of language: 'Presentational' and 'Discursive.' The presentational might be in words, but it might also be a laugh, a cry, a blow, or any other kind of communicative action. It is poetical and nonexplanatory—the expression of Zen. The discursive, by contrast, is prosaic and explanatory....The discursive has a place in a Zen discourse like this one, but it tends to dilute direct teaching."

- What Is Zen Buddhism Really About?
Ironic timing. I just put down a book on animism that was explaining something similar. Basically, it states each thought, sense, or perception is a valuable communication of 'something'.

Its easy to get lost in the more direct speech habits... while there's a whole story going on around us(that's often easy to miss).
 

Secret Chief

Vetted Member
Ironic timing. I just put down a book on animism that was explaining something similar. Basically, it states each thought, sense, or perception is a valuable communication of 'something'.

Its easy to get lost in the more direct speech habits... while there's a whole story going on around us(that's often easy to miss).
And just as hard to articulate. That was part of the appeal of zen, because despite all the sutras...

"Reality, the truth, is not something abstract. For this reason it cannot be grasped with words."
- Between Heaven and Earth ; Michael Eido Luetchford.
 

Secret Chief

Vetted Member
As all things are buddha-dharma, there is delusion and realization, practice, and birth and death, and there are buddhas and sentient beings.
As the myriad things are without an abiding self, there is no delusion, no realization, no buddha, no sentient being, no birth and death.
The buddha way is, basically, leaping clear of the many and the one; thus there are birth and death, delusion and realization, sentient beings and buddhas.
Yet in attachment blossoms fall, and in aversion weeds spread.
°
To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening.
Those who have great realization of delusion are buddhas; those who are greatly deluded about realization are sentient beings. Further, there are those who continue realizing beyond realization, who are in delusion throughout delusion.
°
When buddhas are truly buddhas they do not necessarily notice that they are buddhas. However, they are actualized buddhas, who go on actualizing buddhas.
When you see forms or hear sounds fully engaging body-and-mind, you grasp things directly. Unlike things and their reflections in the mirror, and unlike the moon and its reflection in the water, when one side is illumined the other side is dark.
°
To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.
°
When you first seek dharma, you imagine you are far away from its environs. But dharma is already correctly transmitted; you are immediately your original self. When you ride in a boat and watch the shore, you might assume that the shore is moving. But when you keep your eyes closely on the boat, you can see that the boat moves. Similarly, if you examine myriad things with a confused body and mind you might suppose that your mind and nature are permanent. When you practice intimately and return to where you are, it will be clear that nothing at all has unchanging self.
°
Firewood becomes ash, and it does not become firewood again. Yet, do not suppose that the ash is future and the firewood past. You should understand that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which fully includes past and future and is independent of past and future. Ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, which fully includes future and past. Just as firewood does not become firewood again after it is ash, you do not return to birth after death.
This being so, it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death.
Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring.
°
Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water.
Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky.
The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.
°
When dharma does not fill your whole body and mind, you think it is already sufficient. When dharma fills your body and mind, you understand that something is missing.
For example, when you sail out in a boat to the middle of an ocean where no land is in sight, and view the four directions, the ocean looks circular, and does not look any other way. But the ocean is neither round or square; its features are infinite in variety. It is like a palace. It is like a jewel. It only look circular as far as you can see at that time. All things are like this.
Though there are many features in the dusty world and the world beyond conditions, you see and understand only what your eye of practice can reach. In order to learn the nature of the myriad things, you must know that although they may look round or square, the other features of oceans and mountains are infinite in variety; whole worlds are there. It is so not only around you, but also directly beneath your feet, or in a drop of water.
°
A fish swims in the ocean, and no matter how far it swims there is no end to the water. A bird flies in the sky, and no matter how far it flies there is no end to the air. However, the fish and the bird have never left their elements. When their activity is large their field is large. When their need is small their field is small. Thus, each of them totally covers its full range, and each of them totally experiences its realm. If the bird leaves the air it will die at once. If the fish leaves the water it will die at once.
Know that water is life and air is life. The bird is life and the fish is life. Life must be the bird and life must be the fish.
It is possible to illustrate this with more analogies. Practice, enlightenment, and people are like this.
°
Now if a bird or a fish tries to reach the end of its element before moving in it, this bird or this fish will not find its way or its place. When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find you way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point; for the place, the way, is neither large nor small, neither yours nor others'. The place, the way, has not carried over from the past and it is not merely arising now.
Accordingly, in the practice-enlightenment of the buddha way, meeting one thing is mastering it--doing one practice is practicing completely.
°
Here is the place; here the way unfolds. The boundary of realization is not distinct, for the realization comes forth simultaneously with the mastery of buddha-dharma.
Do not suppose that what you realize becomes your knowledge and is grasped by your consciousness. Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. Its appearance is beyond your knowledge.
°
Zen master Baoche of Mt. Mayu was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, "Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. When, then, do you fan yourself?"
"Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent," Baoche replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere."
"What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?" asked the monk again. The master just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.
The actualization of the buddha-dharma, the vital path of its correct transmission, is like this. If you say that you do not need to fan yourself because the nature of wind is permanent and you can have wind without fanning, you will understand neither permanence nor the nature of wind. The nature of wind is permanent; because of that, the wind of the buddha's house brings for the gold of the earth and makes fragrant the cream of the long river.

- Genjo Koan
 

Stonetree

Abducted Member
Premium Member
All of these Philosophies/Religions/Disciplines are of great interest to anyone still searching for a more complete Truth. When you speak of devotion/ meditation I believe these practices complete even an atheist's needs for mental balance. As an amateur athlete many years ago it was natural to quiet my mind before taking the court/field. We have an inner self that needs to connect with its base/god/truth/spirit. I've made attempts to understand some of the Religions mentioned (OP) but fall short of understanding or grasping them....
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
What, if any, spring time festivals/rituals do you observe?

What are some of the traditions?

What are some of the stories?

And what are some of the foods celebrated? (You can tell I haven't had breakfast yet.)
Vesak is on May 5th this year. I'll probably have Mexican food that day, as it is also Cinco de Mayo.
 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
As all things are buddha-dharma, there is delusion and realization, practice, and birth and death, and there are buddhas and sentient beings.
As the myriad things are without an abiding self, there is no delusion, no realization, no buddha, no sentient being, no birth and death.
The buddha way is, basically, leaping clear of the many and the one; thus there are birth and death, delusion and realization, sentient beings and buddhas.
Yet in attachment blossoms fall, and in aversion weeds spread.
"without an abiding self"

Can you elaborate a bit more on what this means?
°
To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening.
Those who have great realization of delusion are buddhas; those who are greatly deluded about realization are sentient beings. Further, there are those who continue realizing beyond realization, who are in delusion throughout delusion.
°
This one makes my head spin a bit. :D
When buddhas are truly buddhas they do not necessarily notice that they are buddhas. However, they are actualized buddhas, who go on actualizing buddhas.
When you see forms or hear sounds fully engaging body-and-mind, you grasp things directly. Unlike things and their reflections in the mirror, and unlike the moon and its reflection in the water, when one side is illumined the other side is dark.
°
:thumbsup:
To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.
°
Love this...
When you first seek dharma, you imagine you are far away from its environs. But dharma is already correctly transmitted; you are immediately your original self. When you ride in a boat and watch the shore, you might assume that the shore is moving. But when you keep your eyes closely on the boat, you can see that the boat moves. Similarly, if you examine myriad things with a confused body and mind you might suppose that your mind and nature are permanent. When you practice intimately and return to where you are, it will be clear that nothing at all has unchanging self.
°
This is one of the points Buddhism and Hinduism seem to diverge on, if I'm not mistaken(and someone please correct or further explain if I'm not getting something, I'm no expert), is the idea of an unchanging Self. With Hinduism, it exists(Brahman), in Buddhism, it does not?
Firewood becomes ash, and it does not become firewood again. Yet, do not suppose that the ash is future and the firewood past. You should understand that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which fully includes past and future and is independent of past and future. Ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, which fully includes future and past. Just as firewood does not become firewood again after it is ash, you do not return to birth after death.
This being so, it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death.
Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring.
°
Interesting!
Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water.
Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky.
The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.
°
"cannot hinder enlightenment"

It'll happen when it happens. :)
When dharma does not fill your whole body and mind, you think it is already sufficient. When dharma fills your body and mind, you understand that something is missing.
For example, when you sail out in a boat to the middle of an ocean where no land is in sight, and view the four directions, the ocean looks circular, and does not look any other way. But the ocean is neither round or square; its features are infinite in variety. It is like a palace. It is like a jewel. It only look circular as far as you can see at that time. All things are like this.
Though there are many features in the dusty world and the world beyond conditions, you see and understand only what your eye of practice can reach. In order to learn the nature of the myriad things, you must know that although they may look round or square, the other features of oceans and mountains are infinite in variety; whole worlds are there. It is so not only around you, but also directly beneath your feet, or in a drop of water.
°
"when dharma fills your body and mind, you understand that something is missing"
That one confuses me a bit.
A fish swims in the ocean, and no matter how far it swims there is no end to the water. A bird flies in the sky, and no matter how far it flies there is no end to the air. However, the fish and the bird have never left their elements. When their activity is large their field is large. When their need is small their field is small. Thus, each of them totally covers its full range, and each of them totally experiences its realm. If the bird leaves the air it will die at once. If the fish leaves the water it will die at once.
Know that water is life and air is life. The bird is life and the fish is life. Life must be the bird and life must be the fish.
It is possible to illustrate this with more analogies. Practice, enlightenment, and people are like this.
°
What would people be in this analogy? Cats?
Now if a bird or a fish tries to reach the end of its element before moving in it, this bird or this fish will not find its way or its place. When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find you way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point; for the place, the way, is neither large nor small, neither yours nor others'. The place, the way, has not carried over from the past and it is not merely arising now.
Accordingly, in the practice-enlightenment of the buddha way, meeting one thing is mastering it--doing one practice is practicing completely.
°
I love this. Practice it is, and practice is not easy...
Here is the place; here the way unfolds. The boundary of realization is not distinct, for the realization comes forth simultaneously with the mastery of buddha-dharma.
Do not suppose that what you realize becomes your knowledge and is grasped by your consciousness. Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. Its appearance is beyond your knowledge.
°
Realization strikes me as a way of ending knowledge...
Zen master Baoche of Mt. Mayu was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, "Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. When, then, do you fan yourself?"
"Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent," Baoche replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere."
"What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?" asked the monk again. The master just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.
The actualization of the buddha-dharma, the vital path of its correct transmission, is like this. If you say that you do not need to fan yourself because the nature of wind is permanent and you can have wind without fanning, you will understand neither permanence nor the nature of wind. The nature of wind is permanent; because of that, the wind of the buddha's house brings for the gold of the earth and makes fragrant the cream of the long river.

- Genjo Koan
You're telling me that the nature of wind is permanent...

(I had to work a gaseous joke in there somewhere.)
 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
All of these Philosophies/Religions/Disciplines are of great interest to anyone still searching for a more complete Truth. When you speak of devotion/ meditation I believe these practices complete even an atheist's needs for mental balance. As an amateur athlete many years ago it was natural to quiet my mind before taking the court/field. We have an inner self that needs to connect with its base/god/truth/spirit. I've made attempts to understand some of the Religions mentioned (OP) but fall short of understanding or grasping them....
What do you feel you don't understand about which religion?

Vesak is on May 5th this year. I'll probably have Mexican food that day, as it is also Cinco de Mayo.
Mexican food is good on any day...

Are there any other ways you'll observe Vesak?
 
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