The Pagan/Christian Immortal Soul

[dybmh]

That is because you believe in a creator God that IS the only (ultimate) reality, but to acknowledge this there must remain a separation of the creation and the creator.

True.

Therefore a way to look at this as you have illustrated would be not a soul, but a "sound", the result of the breath of God that eminates through all creation as his instrument. There is no individuality as such, since without the breath of God none can have the sound of soul, but there does remain the separation of man to his creator.

Agreed. That's a way. Not how I view it, ( or hear it ) but, I like the idea. It's very creative. Nice.

Even a soul, should it exist, must remain subordinate to God, and should a soul be immortal, it is only because God willed that breath eternal.

Agreed, however, if the will of God is to grant freedom of choice, then subordination is no longer a "must".

 

[GoodAttention]

Agreed, however, if the will of God is to grant freedom of choice, then subordination is no longer a "must".

Subordination? Perhaps not. Property of God? Always remain a must.

By subordinate soul I describe the opposite of a "oneness" that connects man and God as equal or of the same essence, instead of how the concept is usually thought of, either "belonging" to the self or beloning to all creation.

The breath of God powers life, but it does not shackle a man's ego and ability to make his own decisions.

 

[1213]

The translation would be.

Reading the Orthodox Jewish Bible, the word is "ruach", meaning breath, and not "spirit".

Ok, so what do you think the "breath" means? What is the meaning Bible gives to the word?

 

[1213]

What do you think about the other verses depicting the afterlife, such as Ecclesiastes 3:21, 2 Corinthians 5:8, Hebrews 9:27, and the parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus? I'd also like to ask you: What are your personal spiritual beliefs about the afterlife? Thank you in advance for answering my questions.

I believe what is said in the Bible, everyone will come to judgment and those who are counted righteous will get eternal life, and the others are utterly destroyed.

Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”
Ecclesiastes 3:21

Is a good question. It seems that the writer knows the answer in the end of his book.

We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8

I think this indicates Paul knew that there is body and soul/spirit, whose home is with God. Fits well to Eccl. 12:7.

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Hebrews 9:27

I think that fits to other scriptures about death and afterlife and I have no problem with that.

And the story of Lazarus, I think it means before the judgement people who have died (bodily) are waiting either in "hades", or in paradise.

 

[GoodAttention]

Ok, so what do you think the "breath" means? What is the meaning Bible gives to the word?

Of God.

 

[dybmh]

Property of God? Always remain a must.

100% agreed. B"H.

By subordinate soul I describe the opposite of a "oneness" that connects man and God as equal or of the same essence, instead of how the concept is usually thought of, either "belonging" to the self or beloning to all creation.

I really like your thinking here. This is how I break it out. Two can be 'one' in three ways:

1. In
2. With
3. Equal

However, there's a special case. What if the subject is a set of nesting russian dolls? They're simultaneously "In and With" each other, they're not equal, but there is correspondence of form and likeness. When looking at the very very smallest, it's easy to see it, "yes, that's part of the set. This little one came from this great big one." However if one looks at the great big one, its details and magnificence are far beyond anything, anything that can be found on the tiniest one.



The phenomenon above is a consequence of the nested chain, the nearly infinite nested chain. The source and creation share some essential recognizable qualities to a degree. The creation has a spark of Godliness, the essence of God's vitality. It, the vitality, is simultaneously in and with ( the prefix bet in Hebrew ) all of creation.

This particular phenomenon, as a result of the nesting, is what so many great mystics of varying cultures throughout history observed and experienced in their practices and philosophical pursuits. But what they discovered was not that everything is God. They discovered a spark of divine vitality, Godliness, which is in, with, and 'one' of all that exists.

What these great thinkers and mystics also neglect is that the Godliness is being directed, lifted or lowered, ( technically expanded or contracted ). Not all divine vitality is the same. It's not all equal. And that's what I found most appealing about your comment. You recognized that two can be one but not equal. Disjuncted. Smart.

If we don't chat before evening, good Shabbos.

 

[dybmh]

Ok, so what do you think the "breath" means?

The word 'breath' does not exist in the Hebrew Torah. If you look in a Torah scroll, the word you're referring to is:

נשמת חיים - nun shin mem tav ~space~ chet yud yud final mem

וייצר יהוה אלהים את־האדם עפר מן־האדמה ויפח באפיו נשמת חיים ויהי האדם לנפש חיה׃

so what do you think the "breath" means?

What do you think 'נשמת חיים' means, and why?

 

[learner Daniel]

Could they afford to buy a Bible, or at least the scrolls as they were made available prior to the completion of the collection as we now know it. What exactly is the time "back then" when they couldn't afford it and what difference would that make in their ability to read it? If you can't afford to buy William Shakespear, can you not go to the library and read it without cost?

Libraries were private, not open to the public

 

[blü 2]

This looks like a JW tract. You should cite your source. I love how it conveniently ignores what Jesus taught about the immortal soul in the Gospels.

What specific NT verses do you have in mind?

 

[I Am Hugh]

Libraries were private, not open to the public

Well, depending upon the actual period of time. I was thinking more in the lines of the Temple.

 

[learner Daniel]

Well, depending upon the actual period of time. I was thinking more in the lines of the Temple.

Bible there was on the pulpit and read out loud during worship.

 

[I Am Hugh]

Bible there was on the pulpit and read out loud during worship.

Right, and they had specific manuscripts for doing that and other specific manuscripts for study. The ones used in temple for reading were not very accurate. Which actually brings up the point which has been alluded to several times. What bearing does accuracy have on the question of the Bible anyway. Why is there a need for accuracy?

 

[1213]

...
What do you think 'נשמת חיים' means, and why?

By what I know, it is translated breath of life. At the moment I am not sure what that means. Can you explain?

 

[1213]

Of God.

Please explain why do you think so?

 

[GoodAttention]

Please explain why do you think so?

The “rules” of a Creator God are straightforward.

I “default” to “of God” because the rules “tell” me to do so.

Hence I “submit” to the rules, I don’t challenge nor interpret them for my own benefit.

I’m summary I neither hate the player, nor the game.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@I Am Hugh

If you are going to discuss a word like soul, we need to acknowledge that we aren't really talking about the English word, "soul." We need to study the words used in the original languages, and how their meanings are subtly different.

The Greek word "ψυχή" (psuchē) is usually translated as "soul." Also, the word "πνεῦμα" (pneuma) is usually translated as spirit.

In Hebrew, it is even more complicated. נֶפֶשׁ (nefesh) is usually translated as soul or life. It refers to the life force or essense of a living being. רוּחַ (ruach): Typically means "spirit," "wind," or "breath." It can refer to the spiritual aspect of a person. לֵב (lev) Although it primarily means "heart," it can also encompass the mind and emotions, often associated with one's inner self.

At any rate, now you have the ACTUAL words that are used, and can use this information to research further on your own as to what the nuances are of each. For example, unlike the English word "soul," "ψυχή" (psuchē) does not have connotations of immortality.

 

[Madsaac]

It doesn't matter anyway, a 'soul' is just part of a complex machine, called the brain, that operates on the same physical laws as all other objects in the universe.

Isn't this just easier, it's just part of ones imagination

 

[joelr]

This looks like a JW tract. You should cite your source. I love how it conveniently ignores what Jesus taught about the immortal soul in the Gospels.

Right, that's because the NT was influenced by Hellenistic religion and uses much of the same theology as the other Mystery religions.
David Litwa teaches this, James Tabor, J.Z. Smith and several other experts on Hellenism and Christianity.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Right, that's because the NT was influenced by Hellenistic religion and uses much of the same theology as the other Mystery religions.
David Litwa teaches this, James Tabor, J.Z. Smith and several other experts on Hellenism and Christianity.

Mazdeism (Zoroastrianism) was also a very important influence on this.

 

[learner Daniel]

Right, and they had specific manuscripts for doing that and other specific manuscripts for study. The ones used in temple for reading were not very accurate. Which actually brings up the point which has been alluded to several times. What bearing does accuracy have on the question of the Bible anyway. Why is there a need for accuracy?

One of my Mothers was Jewish, I attended Hebrew School. Yes, now I am a chrisitan. The manuscripts I read were accurate. In fact, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the book of Isaiah showed us that what we have is right on. Spelling differences existed. But, the words had the same meaning.