The Pantheistic side of the Gospels

[Nefelie]

I'm not familiar with the gospel of Thomas.

You should read it. You will love it, I promise

Gospel of Thomas in English

and also (for an easier search of the verses) : Gospel of Thomas Commentary

.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You should read it. You will love it, I promise

Gospel of Thomas in English

and also (for an easier search of the verses) : Gospel of Thomas Commentary

.

Gosh. I can see why it wasn't put in the canon. I will have a good read of this later. Very intriguing, thank you.

 

[Nefelie]

<<…The meaning of Christmas is: God became man to make man God. That God became man (according to the Christians) generally all know and understand: God is the Holy Trinity. One of the three persons of the Trinity, the Son of God the Father (who is also the one God), took the human body (and soul) and became a man, he taught love and crucified, redeeming mankind (but from what?).

Man becomes a god?

But, that Christ was born for man to become god, is certainly the first time most hear and certainly needs explanation.

Firstly we need to clarify that we are talking literally: man actually becomes god, not symbolically or metaphorically. Why; Because by becoming man God created a bridge between God and humans. So when someone is baptized Orthodox Christian and communes the body and blood of Christ, and uses this power to cleanse his heart from passions (selfishness, hatred, selfishness, the to love money, pleasures or glory more than they love their fellowmen, etc.) and settles in his heart the humble and selfless love (which necessarily includes forgiveness of enemies, whether they repent or not), then man joins the Christ and becomes one…>>​

This narrative comes from the article titled “the unknown meaning of Christmas: to become god!”, at the official website of the church of Saint Nicolas of Thebes (http://www.inagiounikolaoutouneou.gr/apps/gr/spag/3_1449081289.html)

So, synoptic Christianity is not so far away from Pantheism after all

.

 

[idav]

<<…The meaning of Christmas is: God became man to make man God. That God became man (according to the Christians) generally all know and understand: God is the Holy Trinity. One of the three persons of the Trinity, the Son of God the Father (who is also the one God), took the human body (and soul) and became a man, he taught love and crucified, redeeming mankind (but from what?).

Man becomes a god?

But, that Christ was born for man to become god, is certainly the first time most hear and certainly needs explanation.

Firstly we need to clarify that we are talking literally: man actually becomes god, not symbolically or metaphorically. Why; Because by becoming man God created a bridge between God and humans. So when someone is baptized Orthodox Christian and communes the body and blood of Christ, and uses this power to cleanse his heart from passions (selfishness, hatred, selfishness, the to love money, pleasures or glory more than they love their fellowmen, etc.) and settles in his heart the humble and selfless love (which necessarily includes forgiveness of enemies, whether they repent or not), then man joins the Christ and becomes one…>>​

This narrative comes from the article titled “the unknown meaning of Christmas: to become god!”, at the official website of the church of Saint Nicolas of Thebes (http://www.inagiounikolaoutouneou.gr/apps/gr/spag/3_1449081289.html)

So, synoptic Christianity is not so far away from Pantheism after all

.

This has always been one of my favorite quotes from an Eastern Orthodox bishop.

"God became man so that man might become a god." - St. Athanasius

 

[Nefelie]

~~~

BTW, we should not forget the fact that the first human was created in the “same image and likeness” of god, according to Genesis. I just remembered that, because of another post in the other thread.

~~~

 

[idav]

~~~

BTW, we should not forget the fact that the first human was created in the “same image and likeness” of god, according to Genesis. I just remembered that, because of another post in the other thread.

~~~

And this verse shows the ramifications of knowing right from wrong, points to a difference from most animals because we can predict things, from knowing better and worse.
Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

 

[Nefelie]

And this verse shows the ramifications of knowing right from wrong, points to a difference from most animals because we can predict things, from knowing better and worse. Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Oh dear, you just opened another beloved subject of mine!

Here is a quote of my OP in another forum a few years ago:

What is the TRUE reason God banished Adam & Eve from Eden?

Most of you will say: “as punishment because they ate from the forbidden fruit, of course!”

...Are you SURE?

First of, for those who may not noticed, according to Genesis there are TWO special trees in the garden of Eden: the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:

Out of the ground the LORD God made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. [Gen.2-9]
​

Then, God forbade man to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die. [Gen. 2:16]
​

…but there was nothing said about the tree of life.

Then, we know the story: the serpent made Eve the forbidden fruit, gave to Adam to eat too, God got angry and punished them thusly:

14 The LORD God said to the serpent, ‘Because you have done this, cursed are you among all animals and among all wild creatures; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.’
16 To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.’
17 And to the man he said, ‘Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree about which I commanded you, “You shall not eat of it”, cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return. [Gen. 3:14-19]
​

There you have it: their punishments for eating from the forbidden tree. No banishment anywhere.

...So, how did they get banished from Eden...?

"22 Then the LORD God said, ‘See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil;and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever’—
23 therefore the LORDGod sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.
24 He drove out the man;and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life." [Gen.3:22-24]
​

THAT’S the reason: God didn’t want them to eat from the tree of life as well and become “like one of us” (“us”...?)
He even placed a guard for the tree of life!
Why was He so much afraid that man might eat from the tree of life...?

Much (much, much, much...) later, Christ comes saying, to the Book of Revelation:

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God” [Rev. 2:7]​

So, Christ wants man to eat from the tree of life but God doesn't...?

That is all very confusing...

...What are your thoughts and comments on all this?​

.

 

[idav]

Oh dear, you just opened another beloved subject of mine!

Here is a quote of my OP in another forum a few years ago:

What is the TRUE reason God banished Adam & Eve from Eden?

Most of you will say: “as punishment because they ate from the forbidden fruit, of course!”

...Are you SURE?

First of, for those who may not noticed, according to Genesis there are TWO special trees in the garden of Eden: the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:

Out of the ground the LORD God made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. [Gen.2-9]
​

Then, God forbade man to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die. [Gen. 2:16]
​

…but there was nothing said about the tree of life.

Then, we know the story: the serpent made Eve the forbidden fruit, gave to Adam to eat too, God got angry and punished them thusly:

14 The LORD God said to the serpent, ‘Because you have done this, cursed are you among all animals and among all wild creatures; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.’
16 To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.’
17 And to the man he said, ‘Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree about which I commanded you, “You shall not eat of it”, cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return. [Gen. 3:14-19]
​

There you have it: their punishments for eating from the forbidden tree. No banishment anywhere.

...So, how did they get banished from Eden...?

"22 Then the LORD God said, ‘See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil;and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever’—
23 therefore the LORDGod sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.
24 He drove out the man;and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life." [Gen.3:22-24]
​

THAT’S the reason: God didn’t want them to eat from the tree of life as well and become “like one of us” (“us”...?)
He even placed a guard for the tree of life!
Why was He so much afraid that man might eat from the tree of life...?

Much (much, much, much...) later, Christ comes saying, to the Book of Revelation:

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God” [Rev. 2:7]​

So, Christ wants man to eat from the tree of life but God doesn't...?

That is all very confusing...

...What are your thoughts and comments on all this?​

.

I have noticed that too with reference to the tree of life in the beginning and end of the bible. To me it is a way of saying coming closer to god but still being part of nature.

Gnostic interpretation says God is the Demiurge, not allowing our imperfection and the serpent bringing about gnosis. What made us "good" was being innocent by lacking sufficient knowledge, as soon as we know better we become responsible.

I kinda see it now that we maybe know too much for our own good, I can't imagine if we were immortal. It is a very interesting idea that god is holding back on immortality til the right time. I think science shows that timelessness theoretically exists with enormous enough amounts of energy.

Experiments show photons know the future which is an example of a god like attribute within nature itself.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...m-experiment-suggests-time-run-backwards.html

 

[Nefelie]

This verse also confuses me:

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
[Gen. 3:21]​

Are these actual coats or are they the physical body?

Since god created man in his own image and likeness, then it is safe to say that in the beginning man had no physical body. Right?

.

 

[idav]

This verse also confuses me:

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
[Gen. 3:21]​

Are these actual coats or are they the physical body?

Since god created man in his own image and likeness, then it is safe to say that in the beginning man had no physical body. Right?

.

i think gods image is freedom of choice, then the tree added on top of that the knowledge to make things better and worse.

I think its showing them being taught to live off the land, the coats being animal skins. It's real interesting that at some point, in evolution, deciding we needed to cover up.

 

[Nefelie]

i think gods image is freedom of choice

I agree! But can we assume that god of Genesis had an actual body?

.

 

[idav]

I agree! But can we assume that god of Genesis had an actual body?

.

I am honestly back and forth on that. Some might say a physical body(God walking in the garden) while others lean on the "god is spirit" bit in the bible.

If God is walking around in any garden it is in a chosen avatar. I tend to think god can come down in any form it wants.

The image of god is the power of god I think which is the power to predict and manipulate our paths, Anything else is driven by the originating cause

 

[Nefelie]

I agree, but that doesn't answer the question about what was the first original image of humans.

 

[idav]

I don't take gods physical form literally. Unless it is some sort of avatar scenario.

 

[Nefelie]

I don't take gods physical form literally. Unless it is some sort of avatar scenario.

Exaclty my point! Therefore, the original human had NOT a physical form!

 

[idav]

This answers pretty decent regarding Islam and Pantheism, accepted as far as gnosis.
http://islam.stackexchange.com/ques...m-as-defined-by-spinoza-compatible-with-islam

 

[SuperSaiyanBlue616]

You should read it. You will love it, I promise

Gospel of Thomas in English

and also (for an easier search of the verses) : Gospel of Thomas Commentary

.

Even though I won't consider the Gospel of Thomas some sort of "suppressed truth" since it was written sometime in the second century, I'll definitely give it a read! I'm a Christian in the cultural sense, so it'll give me a new perspective on things.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I think the Bible referred to some things that the church leaders didn't want spread around, i.e., reincarnation, pantheism, etc. They left just enough verses to get people thinking about them.

 

[ashkat1`]

The Bible is not a book of metaphysics, tells us very little about how God is built. Generally, we get but snapshots which often conflict. However, a kind of a panentheism is at least implied in Scripture. The ancient Hebrews seem to have attributed just about every body part to God, which suggests they viewed God as embodied. The taboo against making images does not mean God was thought of as immaterial. If we consider the universe the body of God, then any picture we might draw of it would be far less than the real thing, as we cannot see the entire universe. If teh Incarnation is at all revelatory of God, then it reveals God's general MO with creation, and that means God is incarnate throughout the universe. I think that is what Paul has in mind when he speaks of our lives as hid in God and says that God will be all and in all (2 Cor. 15:28). Jer. 23:23-24 speaks very clearly of the omnipresence of God, a theme lost to traditional Christianity. In addition, most of teh divine predication, in Scripture, is relative predication. It hard to be a father without children, a creator without a creation, etc. These suggest that God genuinely needs the world in order to be fully God.

 

[nash8]

I think the Bible referred to some things that the church leaders didn't want spread around, i.e., reincarnation, pantheism, etc. They left just enough verses to get people thinking about them.

I agree, I wonder if they did this on purpose or not.

~~~
BTW, we should not forget the fact that the first human was created in the “same image and likeness” of god, according to Genesis. I just remembered that, because of another post in the other thread.
~~~

Actually, genesis states that we should make man in "OUR" image, denoting god as plural. This is in every different translation as far as I know. Very interesting indeed.

Logos, according to stoic philosphers, was the "divine animating principle". Interestingly enough, stoicism was the dominant philosophy when john would have been written.

I wouldn't qualify the bible itself as panthiestic, but there are definitely snippets here and there that were left in. John being the most evident, how that got into the canon is beyond me.

But what Jesus (Joshua) actually taught, was most definentally pan(en)theistic. All of the times he is directly speaking about divinity in the bible reek of panthiesm. He is just referring to his recognition that the divinity within himself is the divinity which all things possess.

Great topic btw.