The Paradox of Atheism and God

[dybmh]

Okay, I'll try to be fair about it.... I'll acknowledge your evidence (without giving it a free pass against scrutiny), but suggest that as is, it's pretty insufficient [for me].

That is totally fair. And thank you. However, I brought 2 recent examples, and now we have two more. Ok... 1 and a half more. Basically it shows the phenomena exists. It shows at least a proof of concept. Lacking any counter examples, and the fact I was able to predict the behavior and it was demonstrated here indicates that my assertion has merit.

My own confidence of it is coming from, I don't know... 1000s of personal interactions on the forum with online-atheists. Even if I round down to 1000 total personal interactions, that's pretty good reason to trust this theory. But once I include all the interactions I've witnessed here and on other websites... the number jumps back up to the 1000s range.

Also, since what you're proposing has large implications, I actually think that if you can do it in a way where you don't call people out specifically (like @ChristineM ) that this whole investigation actually warrants its own thread. It'd probably reach a larger audience that way.

She asked for falsifiable evidence, and actually called me out first. It's not my fault she's the one making the false claim about atheists and happens to be the strongest example. I didn't "call out" the other person in my example.

And what's the large implication? Online-atheists accept evidence when it is presented? Isn't that the intention that is being presented in this thread. If part of the virtues of atheism is being better at accepting evidence, then I am expressing a valid critique which should be used for improvement. it's no different that any other atheist trying to educate religious people about rational thinking and proper evidence. The only reason to object is... arrogance. Self-perceived perfection in the form of "I don't make false claims".

If you scroll back, and look at my original post challenging this idea of "better at accepting evidence", there was no call out.. It was matter of fact.

 

[dybmh]

FFS, and right is right, we've been over interpretation before, so get over yourself.

When you're wrong about the literal details of the story, that's not interpretation. Murder is not self-defense. That is not interpretation. That is outright falsehood. Harry Potter is not a murderer, right? Or is that interpretation? Please be honest.

 

[dybmh]

Sheesh, really, also makes your head grow, careful when going through doorways.

Ironic. I do not claim perfection about myself. I offered to admit I wass wrong if evidence can be brought. Open offer: 2 counter-examples will produce a public statement that I was wrong and I will adjust my conclusion based on... evidence.

However:

I make no false claims, it's not who i am,

Talking about my ego is pot-kettle-black. You absolutely made a false claim in this thread. You made a false claim about murder in the other thread. Also rape. You made a bunch of false claims.

The bbiggest one is the reading the bible cover to cover three times when that would be at least 22 books in the this context. We're talking about the OT. I've asked about 2 Chron. Have you actually read it 3 times cover to cover? Please be honest.

 

[ChristineM]

When you're wrong about the literal details of the story, that's not interpretation. Murder is not self-defense. That is not interpretation. That is outright falsehood. Harry Potter is not a murderer, right? Or is that interpretation? Please be honest.

But god is a murderer, as written several times in the OT. Perhaps you see murders by god as justified because god. I see the book as a horror story with the chief protagonist being god. Now thats interpretation.

 

[dybmh]

But god is a murderer, as written several times in the OT. Perhaps you see murders by god as justified because god. I see the book as a horror story with the chief protagonist being god. Now thats interpretation.

Nope you're wrong. Again. We're talking about 2 Chron 20. It is not murder, it is self defense. That's clearly written. The simple fact you are denying it without clicking on the link shows that "accepting evidence about the details in the OT" is not what you ( normally, ever in my experience ) do. And it's common among the other online-atheists here too.

You're not even reading it.

 

[ChristineM]

Talking about my ego is pot-kettle-black. I absolutely made a false claim in this thread. You made a falsse claim about murder in the other thread. Also rape. You made a bunch of false claims.

You want verse numbers?

GENESIS 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah’s family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

EXODUS 12:29 God kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt

DEUTERONOMY 21:10-13 With the Lord’s approval, the Israelites are allowed to take “beautiful women” from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has “no delight” in his wife, he can simply let her go. That is rape.

Just a few, there are many more

Of course you may impose apologetics to excuse these horrors, that doesn't make genocide, murder and rape go away

 

[ChristineM]

Nope you're wrong

I am not, see above post

 

[dybmh]

You want verse numbers?

GENESIS 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah’s family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

EXODUS 12:29 God kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt

DEUTERONOMY 21:10-13 With the Lord’s approval, the Israelites are allowed to take “beautiful women” from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has “no delight” in his wife, he can simply let her go. That is rape.

Just a few, there are many more

Of course you may impose apologetics to excuse these horrors, that doesn't make genocide, murder and rape go away

The topic is 2 Chron 20. Those issues above have been discussed. But, They are off-topic. The question is, are you able to accept any evidence that is brought. So far the answer is, No. You cannot accept any eviidence brought which proves you are literally wrong. 2 Chron 20 is the best example of this. It happened somewhat recently, too.

 

[dybmh]

I am not, see above post

The topic is 2 Chron 20. You included this story as an example of the god of the OT's unjustified killing. And you would not even read the verses put in front of you. And you still have refused to do so. You have admitted that your personal identity is bound to the perfection of "not making any false claims".

That's a real problem considering how many false claims you make about the OT.

I'm going to depart from this for now. We can continue to debate this as long as you wish later. If you reply regarding what I've written, I'll respond.

 

[ChristineM]

The topic is 2 Chron 20. Those issues above have been discussed. But, They are off-topic. The question is, are you able to accept any evidence that is brought. So far the answer is, No. You cannot accept any eviidence brought which proves you are literally wrong. 2 Chron 20 is the best example of this. It happened somewhat recently, too.

That's your topic, cherry picking does not make genocide, murder and rape go away. So ill expect an apology for your false claim that i was wrong

 

[ChristineM]

The topic is 2 Chron 20. You included this story as an example of the god of the OT's unjustified killing. And you would not even read the verses put in front of you. And you still have refused to do so. You have admitted that your personal identity is bound to the perfection of "not making any false claims".

That's a real problem considering how many false claims you make about the OT.

I'm going to depart from this for now. We can continue to debate this as long as you wish later. If you reply regarding what I've written, I'll respond.

What false claims? You have alternative interpretation of those verses i cited or are you just going to continue stomping your foot?

Ive already told you im done, im only here because you don't know when to give up.

 

[dybmh]

That's your topic, cherry picking does not make genocide, murder and rape go away. So ill expect an apology for your false claim that i was wrong

Nope. It's the falsifiable evidence you requested. If you want to defeat it, you need to find fault in THAT falsifiable evidence. Or ppring counter examples where you or any other online atheist ated their conclusion after being corrected on the details of the story in the OT.

Here is my claim for reference:

The claim is: no amount of evidence is accepted when it is correcting the details of the story. The claim is not about god magic, nor whether or not the god in the OT is a murderer. It's about accepting evidence.

 

[ChristineM]

Nope. It's the falsifiable evidence you requested. If you want to defeat it, you need to find fault in THAT falsifiable evidence. Or ppring counter examples where you or any other online atheist ated their conclusion after being corrected on the details of the story in the OT.

Here is my claim for reference:

View attachment 82647

The claim is: no amount of evidence is accepted when it is correcting the details of the story. The claim is not about god magic, nor whether or not the god in the OT is a murderer. It's about accepting evidence.

Round and round we go. Just stop cherry picking and grow up

 

[lukethethird]

You don't even know what my "beliefs" are. So whatever you think you don't share in, you're making it up. That's the problem with defining atheism as the mindless automatic negation of whatever the atheist imagines theism to be. Which is usually, and quite wrongly, religion.

I don't imagine what theism is, theists are burdened with that dilemma, I am free of that. I don't share in your beliefs because I don't know and don't care what they are, there is nothing to make up. You have an axe to grind, that's what religion causes by the sounds of your posts, that too is not my problem, I am free of religion.

 

[dybmh]

What false claims? You have alternative interpretation of those verses i cited or are you just going to continue stomping your foot?

Ive already told you im done, im only here because you don't know when to give up.

There's no reason to give up. You're simply wrong. There's at least 4 false claims in the link I brought earlier. If I recall 2 are outright undeniably incorrrect. Not interpretation at all. The others maybe are debatable. But I started with the obvious false claims first. The best example is the claim that 2 Chron 20 is murder.

The in this thread.. wow. 3 false claims. first that atheists are better at accepting evidence. second that what I brought was not falsifiable. third that I needed to interview all atheists to bring falsifiable evidence in suppport of what I've asserted.

that's 2 obvious false claims in the other thread about the OT. And 3 more in this thread. 5 obvious ones.

 

[dybmh]

Round and round we go. Just stop cherry picking and grow up

The claim is: "not accepting evidence". you're off-topic. its not cherry picking to bring an example and stick to the topic.

If you need to change the subject that means you've lost the debate.

 

[blü 2]

Yes, God exists in objective reality. He has form and shape. He has eyes, a nose, arms, etc. He looks like you and me. Or better said, we look like him, because he created (organized) us. He reasons, feels, thinks, loves, cries, etc., like we do. He is the "father" of us all in a figurative sense, though real in the sense that our lives as moving, choosing beings are the result of his handiwork.

If God exists in objective reality, why does [he] never appear, say, do in reality?

Why are there no photos, videos, interviews?

Why does [he] sit on [his] hands and let little kids drown in swimming pools?

And since [he] has objective existence, and is like humans, what does [he] eat, where does [he] live, what are [his] breeding habits, what society does he physically keep?

And what is the real quality of "godness" that distinguishes [him] from other real beings?

 

[Unfettered]

If God exists in objective reality, why does [he] never appear, say, do in reality?

Why are there no photos, videos, interviews?

Why does [he] sit on [his] hands and let little kids drown in swimming pools?

And since [he] has objective existence, and is like humans, what does [he] eat, where does [he] live, what are [his] breeding habits, what society does he physically keep?

And what is the real quality of "godness" that distinguishes [him] from other real beings?

This all seems more like theology than the exercise I thought we were engaged in. The language before seemed more scientifically oriented. Have we taken a leap here?

I don't have a problem discussing theology, and ultimately it is probably unavoidable since we're discussing God; I just want to make sure that's where we are already.

Or maybe I'm overthinking things?

 

[Orbit]

No. It's those atheists who come to online venues to debate with religious people. Atheists who do not do this are, in general, apatheists who do not care 1 iota about what is in the OT.

Online-atheism has its own mythology. One of those myths is, the online-atheist is more knowledgable about the OT than the religious adherents who study it. Just like any other religious person, they deny evidence which undermines the mythology.

And, it's perfectly fair to make this assertion about online-atheists. If they can make the assertion that religious adherents don't know their own mythology, then, I can make the same assertion that online-atheists dont know their own mythology.

Just to correct a misapprehension, in survey research, atheists score higher on religious knowledge than most Christian groups do.

From the study:
"Jews get 18.7 questions right, on average. Self-described atheists and agnostics also display relatively high levels of religious knowledge, correctly answering an average of 17.9 and 17.0 questions, respectively."

Christians and other groups score lower.

What Americans Know About Religion

Before you read the reportTest your religious knowledge by taking an interactive quiz. The short quiz includes some questions recently asked in the

www.pewresearch.org

 

[dybmh]

@Orbit

The mythology is: atheists know the bible better than religious adherents who study it.

Is there anything in the pew research regarding this?