No, you cant.
This is an example of the "is/ought" problem: you can't infer an "ought" (like purpose - i.e. what a thing ought to be doing) from an "is" (what the thing does).
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The Paradox of Atheism and God
- Thread starter PoetPhilosopher
- Start date
This is an example of the "is/ought" problem: you can't infer an "ought" (like purpose - i.e. what a thing ought to be doing) from an "is" (what the thing does).
If your idea of the Creator God is an unknowable One, to get involved in discussions that refer to the God of Abraham, of Moses and of Jesus, you would have to get on the same page about this God as if He was that god you imagine. Paul suggested the same thing to the Athenians:
Acts 17:22 Paul now stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said:
“Men of Athens, I see that in all things you seem to be more given to the fear of the deities than others are. 23 For instance, while passing along and carefully observing your objects of veneration, I found even an altar on which had been inscribed ‘To an Unknown God.’ Therefore, what you are unknowingly worshipping, this I am declaring to you. 24 The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; 25 nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things. 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28 For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’
29 “Therefore, since we are the children of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and design of humans. 30 True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance; but now he is declaring to all people everywhere that they should repent. 31 Because he has set a day on which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead.”
Many modern religious groups with their religious leaders reject the idea of being guided by a God who is in fact directly involved in human matters. I suppose they do it because it gives them carte blanche to invent their own doctrines, establish their own standards of behavior, and control the masses they lead. It is practically the same of being atheist, and probably it's just a game that atheists are interested on playing and, who knows, started by themselves.
With a God involved with humans and teaching truths and establishing what is right and just, there is no room for purely human direction.
Acts 17:22 Paul now stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said:
“Men of Athens, I see that in all things you seem to be more given to the fear of the deities than others are. 23 For instance, while passing along and carefully observing your objects of veneration, I found even an altar on which had been inscribed ‘To an Unknown God.’ Therefore, what you are unknowingly worshipping, this I am declaring to you. 24 The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; 25 nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things. 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28 For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’
29 “Therefore, since we are the children of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and design of humans. 30 True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance; but now he is declaring to all people everywhere that they should repent. 31 Because he has set a day on which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead.”
Many modern religious groups with their religious leaders reject the idea of being guided by a God who is in fact directly involved in human matters. I suppose they do it because it gives them carte blanche to invent their own doctrines, establish their own standards of behavior, and control the masses they lead. It is practically the same of being atheist, and probably it's just a game that atheists are interested on playing and, who knows, started by themselves.
With a God involved with humans and teaching truths and establishing what is right and just, there is no room for purely human direction.
PureX
Veteran Member
Actually, that is exactly what is being inferred when a thing is what it is so as to do what it does. The bumble bee is what it is so as to do what it does. It has been created and defined and shaped and controlled by the existential possibilities it has found available to it, and is now fulfilling. Literally, everything that exists, exists as it does so as to fulfill whatever possibilities are available to be fulfilled. So the big question is what is determining what is possible, and what is not? How? Why? These questions are way bigger than, "Is it sentient"? Or, "is it aware of us, specifically?"
I notice that you're so desperate to both imply your "ought" and avoid any word that could be construed as "ought" that you've given up any semblance of normal English grammar.
You think that everything that exists, as it exists now, is "fulfilling its purpose?"
I've only really seen this from you. In my experience, 99.99% of folks who refer to "God" see no mystery. For them it is quite clear what that label refers to.
I love how it is your desciption that is the true or perhaps mature characterization of this thing or concept labeled 'God', and then "there are the many various anthropomorphic conceptual embodiments of that mystery", the immature or perhaps primitive conceptualization of your more sophisticated understanding.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Whereas I am certain of what the God label refers to, I also believe that God is a mystery. To clarify that further, I believe we can know some of the attributes of God through scripture, but I do not believe we can know the essence of God, God's intrinsic nature.
“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart, from now until the end that hath no end, and with all the concentrated intelligence and understanding which the greatest minds have attained in the past or will attain in the future, this divinely ordained and subtle Reality, this sign of the revelation of the All-Abiding, All-Glorious God, thou wilt fail to comprehend its mystery or to appraise its virtue. Having recognized thy powerlessness to attain to an adequate understanding of that Reality which abideth within thee, thou wilt readily admit the futility of such efforts as may be attempted by thee, or by any of the created things, to fathom the mystery of the Living God, the Day Star of unfading glory, the Ancient of everlasting days. This confession of helplessness which mature contemplation must eventually impel every mind to make is in itself the acme of human understanding, and marketh the culmination of man’s development.” Gleanings, pp. 165-166
Then I guess you have all the bases covered, or at least your religious scripture does.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, I think we do.
Not saying it has to be personal, but the title "God" is a bit of a loaded term; usually reserved for a sentient being that is above mankind
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that God is a sentient being that is above mankind. I also believe that God is personal, but not personal in exactly the way Christians believe.
While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:
What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]
God in the Baháʼí Faith
беспокойный путешественни
All gods are great.
I am (in a way) of the same opinion as the Baháʼí. (Baháʼí is one of the many religions I sympathise with - partly because their beliefs are similar in origin to mine). However, my nuances are different.
I imagine the gods (among other things) as manifestations of their qualities in me. Cunning, wisdom, love - all these (and more) qualities of mine get me through life at different times.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Where did your beliefs originate?
Baha'is believe that humans have the potential to reflect the qualities is God. Those qualities are within us since we were made in the image of God. Humans can reflect some of God's qualities such as Righteous, Loving, Beneficent, Merciful, Gracious, Merciful, Wise, Just, and Patient, and these qualities of God help us get through life.
That principle is expressed in the following passage:
“Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is a direct evidence of the revelation within it of the attributes and names of God, inasmuch as within every atom are enshrined the signs that bear eloquent testimony to the revelation of that Most Great Light.....
…From that which hath been said it becometh evident that all things, in their inmost reality, testify to the revelation of the names and attributes of God within them. Each according to its capacity, indicateth, and is expressive of, the knowledge of God. So potent and universal is this revelation, that it hath encompassed all things visible and invisible....” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 178-179
беспокойный путешественни
All gods are great.
I would call it a "humanistic approach" to religion. I was a scientist before I recognized the gods.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I like the humanistic approach. One of my favorite atheists on this forum @It Aint Necessarily So is a humanist.
So you are not a scientist anymore? Do you think there is a conflict between science and belief in gods?
Baha'is believe that there is no inherent conflict between science and religion, and that both necessary for humanity to survive and thrive.
беспокойный путешественни
All gods are great.
I still work in a job that has a lot to do with science, and I have never given up my scientific convictions. But by THINKING scientifically, I can understand the gods better and not approach them with the clueless understanding that they are human-like beings waiting for us on a cloud / under the earth / in another dimension. (Not meant as an attack on other religions!)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That sounds great. I was never very proficient in hard science so I guess I never learned to think scientifically.
I studied geography and psychology and got degrees in those subjects, but I always admire scientists for the work they do.
беспокойный путешественни
All gods are great.
Ah, geography is a science. I guess...
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Is geography a pure science?Ah, geography is a science. I guess...
So, geography can very much be a social science. Geography is one of the rare disciplines that cross the line between social science and natural science. In fact, it is both sciences. This makes geography one of the most complex, wide reaching, and fascinating subjects you can study.
Geography as a Social Science: Definition & Explanation
PureX
Veteran Member
I'm smarter than 99% of my fellow humans when it comes to seeing through artifice to the conceptual content it is being created to represent.
It is what it is. Ya'll are just wasting your time arguing and debating the artifice and ignoring the source. But the ego wants what it wants, and few can say "no" to it.
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PureX
Veteran Member
If you weren't working SO hard at rejecting the obvious, you could understand plain English better.I notice that you're so desperate to both imply your "ought" and avoid any word that could be construed as "ought" that you've given up any semblance of normal English grammar.
Everything that exists is fulfilling the existential possibilities that are available. Those possibilities therefor create, define, and give shape and purpose to everything that exists. The bumble bee is what, why, and how it is because of the niche set of possibilities that were available to it for evolutionary bio-habitation. That niche set of possibilities creates it, defines it, shapes it, and gives it it's purpose. The same it's true of every atom, molecule, and bit of matter in the universe. Everything is what it is to fulfill the possibilities available. And whatever isn't, isn't because it was not possible.
So the real question is: how are those possibilities possible? And why are some possibilities possible, while others are not?