The Paradox of Existing

[The Sum of Awe]

I have asked this on here before, and I'm sorry for repeating it. It's something that I feel is unresolved still and I also wanted to note that even my concept of the worldsoul does not solve it. This has really been eating on me, more than the question why there is something rather than nothing and a few other questions. The series of questions, in my opinion, prove that at some level there is chaos in this deterministic universe.


First, we can all agree that there is consciousness, that life and animation is an existing thing. Most would agree that there are many different consciousnesses surrounding the life of each and every walking sack of flesh here on the earth, the few that don't agree would be the solipsists who are not relevant.

It is a given fact that you are experiencing, perceiving, conscious, alive. Any word will do, I don't much care what it's called, as long as you understand what I'm talking about.


In the worldview where beings have no souls and consciousness is a collection of brain activity, different minds come from different brains. Each brain acts independently in creating the mind.

And so in that worldview the question is: Why am I following this brain's activity? Why am I experiencing this collection of activity from this specific brain? Why am I this walking sack of flesh that walks in the human world instead of a walking sack of flesh that sits in captivity at the mercy of humanity?


In the worldview that there are souls, why am I this soul and not another? I can understand that souls do answer why my consciousness follows this body specifically, but what explains why my consciousness follows this soul specifically?

Of course souls are often considered synonymous with consciousness, but there obviously is still a consciousness beyond that consciousness, because I am this consciousness and not that consciousness.


There is not really a solution to this as far as I can see other than two: A) Solipsism, that the reason I am following this consciousness is because this is the only consciousness in existence. B) At some point down the line, fraction everything and at a certain depth things do not make sense, they happen because they happen, no cause only effect. Also known as chaos.


But even though this paradox is here, it makes no difference and cannot be dismissed. There is life, it's a fact. It might not make sense but it is here.

 

[s2a]

I have asked this on here before, and I'm sorry for repeating it. It's something that I feel is unresolved still and I also wanted to note that even my concept of the worldsoul does not solve it. This has really been eating on me, more than the question why there is something rather than nothing and a few other questions. The series of questions, in my opinion, prove that at some level there is chaos in this deterministic universe.

All available evidences suggest that you do not matter, and your end will exhibit neither reward nor punishment. Is this upsetting?

First, we can all agree that there is consciousness, that life and animation is an existing thing. Most would agree that there are many different consciousnesses surrounding the life of each and every walking sack of flesh here on the earth, the few that don't agree would be the solipsists who are not relevant.

OK.

It is a given fact that you are experiencing, perceiving, conscious, alive. Any word will do, I don't much care what it's called, as long as you understand what I'm talking about.

You haven't lost me yet, still listening.

In the worldview where beings have no souls and consciousness is a collection of brain activity, different minds come from different brains. Each brain acts independently in creating the mind.

Whoa.

Any concept or notion of a "soul" assumes much, and shares no illumination whatsoever. Some "see" a "soul" as a simple embodiment of a lifetime of acquired knowledge and experience. Many others esteem a "soul" as an embodiment of a person themselves. IE, that "personality" that never dies, and is either rewarded or punished to the end of eternity, with full expectations of receipt of reward vs, punishment, justly dispensed by a chosen and invisible space entity.

And so in that worldview the question is: Why am I following this brain's activity? Why am I experiencing this collection of activity from this specific brain? Why am I this walking sack of flesh that walks in the human world instead of a walking sack of flesh that sits in captivity at the mercy of humanity?

Well, you could condense existence in that way, but you really don't HAVE to...

No offense to the Billions of humans that have perished before we ever showed up, statistically speaking, they remain utterly unknown and unremarkable in any way at all. I'll even wager you have absolutely no clue as to what may have been your favorite great-great-grandfathers favorite color may have been. What did He do for a living? His favorite hobby? Could He read? Was He a notable hero of some sort, or a street person? Beyond youre being here, what was His wished for legacy? Do you know? How many of your acquaintances know about their own forbears?
Some?
A little?
Nothing at all?

Do you assume that three or four generations removed, from your own existence today, that future familial descendants will know, or even care what you favored team in your favorite sport might be today?

What aspects of "humanity" would lead you to even speculate what latter generations may think/say about you?
Vanity?
Some invaluable Purpose?
Importance?
Impact upon world, or even neighborhood events?
Anything at all?

Yet, today, you matter. A lot.
Tomorrow, eh.

In the worldview that there are souls, why am I this soul and not another? I can understand that souls do answer why my consciousness follows this body specifically, but what explains why my consciousness follows this soul specifically?

If we are to assume a "worldview that there are souls,"your efforted projections that any/all humans (with self-awareness) must therefore "own their own" souls, is just kinda silly. Many (id not most) monotheistic beliefs insist that all individuals retain personal choice, but are also subject to irrevocable predestination of unavoidable results. This stated premise alone challenges any hope or ideal of individuality or personalized "choice", especially if your chosen deity alreadt knows what you will choose.

Anyway, you were saying...

Of course souls are often considered synonymous with consciousness, but there obviously is still a consciousness beyond that consciousness, because I am this consciousness and not that consciousness.

Jabberwocky for believers only.

There is not really a solution to this as far as I can see other than two: A) Solipsism, that the reason I am following this consciousness is because this is the only consciousness in existence. B) At some point down the line, fraction everything and at a certain depth things do not make sense, they happen because they happen, no cause only effect. Also known as chaos.

Interesting, but as usual a false choice and false premise as this "paradox" is often presented.

Only two possibilities? No others? None?

I'll offer a simple alternative you have yet to mention.

"Souls" (as an invention of organized religion) do not exist.

Now what?

But even though this paradox is here, it makes no difference and cannot be dismissed. There is life, it's a fact. It might not make sense but it is here.

I did dismiss it, easily in fact. There is no such thing as a human "soul". No proof. No evidence. No measurable effect. Period. That simple.

Your turn.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

All available evidences suggest that you do not matter, and your end will exhibit neither reward nor punishment. Is this upsetting?

Not at all, and it isn't anything I haven't noticed before. I don't believe I matter nor do I believe in life after death.

Whoa.

Any concept or notion of a "soul" assumes much, and shares no illumination whatsoever. Some "see" a "soul" as a simple embodiment of a lifetime of acquired knowledge and experience. Many others esteem a "soul" as an embodiment of a person themselves. IE, that "personality" that never dies, and is either rewarded or punished to the end of eternity, with full expectations of receipt of reward vs, punishment, justly dispensed by a chosen and invisible space entity.

That is true. The soul is a very broad concept.

Well, you could condense existence in that way, but you really don't HAVE to...

No offense to the Billions of humans that have perished before we ever showed up, statistically speaking, they remain utterly unknown and unremarkable in any way at all. I'll even wager you have absolutely no clue as to what may have been your favorite great-great-grandfathers favorite color may have been. What did He do for a living? His favorite hobby? Could He read? Was He a notable hero of some sort, or a street person? Beyond youre being here, what was His wished for legacy? Do you know? How many of your acquaintances know about their own forbears?
Some?
A little?
Nothing at all?

Do you assume that three or four generations removed, from your own existence today, that future familial descendants will know, or even care what you favored team in your favorite sport might be today?

What aspects of "humanity" would lead you to even speculate what latter generations may think/say about you?
Vanity?
Some invaluable Purpose?
Importance?
Impact upon world, or even neighborhood events?
Anything at all?

Yet, today, you matter. A lot.
Tomorrow, eh.

I agree. But what does this mean as to why I am following this brain and not another?

If we are to assume a "worldview that there are souls,"your efforted projections that any/all humans (with self-awareness) must therefore "own their own" souls, is just kinda silly. Many (id not most) monotheistic beliefs insist that all individuals retain personal choice, but are also subject to irrevocable predestination of unavoidable results. This stated premise alone challenges any hope or ideal of individuality or personalized "choice", especially if your chosen deity alreadt knows what you will choose.

Regardless of who owns souls, in a worldview in which souls exist, at least separate souls, there is a self awareness pertaining to each individual soul. But why am I specifically self aware of this self and not another self awareness? Are you saying that it is my personal choice that I am self aware of this self and not (insert name of another person)'s self?

Anyway, you were saying...

Jabberwocky for believers only.

Interesting, but as usual a false choice and false premise as this "paradox" is often presented.

Only two possibilities? No others? None?

I'll offer a simple alternative you have yet to mention.

"Souls" (as an invention of organized religion) do not exist.

Now what?

There are only two that I can see. I am not only open to other possibilities, but I am asking for them.

The OP already applied this question to those who do not believe in a soul, so a lack of a soul doesn't answer the question alone.

I did dismiss it, easily in fact. There is no such thing as a human "soul". No proof. No evidence. No measurable effect. Period. That simple.

Your turn.

That doesn't answer the question as to why I am me and not you. Whether or not there is such a thing as a soul, it is evident that there is a self awareness in existence. The question is asking why my self awareness is this self and not another self.

 

[Word]

Your self awareness is of yourself and other selves. You came into this world being at the mercy of the knowledge of otherselves(starting with your parents), consequently building an 'identity' for your 'self' , to navigate the world with.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you asked "why am I me, and not you?"...well, if you were him would you finally be satisfied? Or would you continue asking "why me?"

Now that you are able to think for 'yourself' as a mature adult, it seems you have delved into a bottomless pit of philosophical ponderings which stem from your choice of belief system- that you don't matter. I understand that choosing such a belief causes deeeeep spiritual confusion and even depression.

What are you grateful for?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Your self awareness is of yourself and other selves. You came into this world being at the mercy of the knowledge of otherselves(starting with your parents), consequently building an 'identity' for your 'self' , to navigate the world with.

It makes no difference if my self awareness is myself, there still is a 'your' in front of it. There must be a reason I am this self awareness and not another. If there are multiple, separate individual selves, then there must be something behind the self that separates each one. There must be a reason why I, the experience of this body's life, am experiencing this body's life and not another body's life.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you asked "why am I me, and not you?"...well, if you were him would you finally be satisfied? Or would you continue asking "why me?"

I would continue asking.

Now that you are able to think for 'yourself' as a mature adult, it seems you have delved into a bottomless pit of philosophical ponderings which stem from your choice of belief system- that you don't matter. I understand that choosing such a belief causes deeeeep spiritual confusion and even depression.

It doesn't relate to any specific belief system, the question is present for all belief systems except for solipsism. If there are different experiences of reality, different minds, there has to be a reason why my mind is this mind and not any of the other minds. It truly is a bottomless pit, though. It appears to be anyway. I am not seeing any possible way for this to be resolved under any standards. But in a bottomless pit there is something that is used to replace the need for a bottom - chaos. The only solution, as far as I can tell, is that reality is simply illogical, but that doesn't make it any less real... somehow.

What are you grateful for?

The only thing one can rationally be grateful for is grace itself.

 

[Word]

It truly is a bottomless pit, though. It appears to be anyway. I am not seeing any possible way for this to be resolved under any standards.


The only thing one can rationally be grateful for is grace itself.

There is a way, but due to your paradigm you probably wouldn't accept it. Ultimately, your belief is in your own power to control. No matter who says what, no one can make you change your beliefs that there is 'no resolution'.

It could be resolved with a shift in paradigm..first, you'd have to be open to the possibility. Beliefs have a steering effect on the mind..some people drive towards their progressive realization of happiness, while others drive into bottomless ditches. You have created what looks like a nihilist hell for yourself- it was created by a paradigm that (for whatever reason) you identified with at the time. **I have also done this to myself before**

Do you love anyone? Does anyone love you?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

There is a way, but due to your paradigm you probably wouldn't accept it. Ultimately, your belief is in your own power to control. No matter who says what, no one can make you change your beliefs that there is 'no resolution'.

I haven't a clue on what you mean by my own power to control.

It could be resolved with a shift in paradigm..first, you'd have to be open to the possibility. Beliefs have a steering effect on the mind..some people drive towards their progressive realization of happiness, while others drive into bottomless ditches. You have created what looks like a nihilist hell for yourself- it was created by a paradigm that (for whatever reason) you identified with at the time. **I have also done this to myself before**

I am open minded for any answers, which is the reason I asked. I am controlled by my beliefs in the same sense anyone else is, but in this case I have no beliefs to dip in this question, I admit that even my own belief of the self doesn't entirely answer it either.

It has less to do with a soul than it does with a mind, but often the two are used as if they were synonymous.

What are you suggesting is my paradigm that is causing this supposed nihilist hell? And what paradigm do you suggest instead? Please present a concept that would actually work as a solution to this question.

Do you love anyone? Does anyone love you?

What is the point of this question?

 

[Word]

What is the point of this question?

Well, you said you don't matter...but would you say that receiving and giving love, gives you purpose? Like you alluded earlier, you don't live in a bubble- there is a purpose that you are you.

What do you love?

 

[Word]

This topic reminds me of years ago: me, laying in my bed early on a Saturday morning; contemplating the futility of my life and my inevitable death- annihilation into non-existence.

 

[Word]

[youtube]8vL8Ck74lVw[/youtube]
The Near Death Experience: Commonalities Among Experiencers - Documentary - YouTube

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Well, you said you don't matter...but would you say that receiving and giving love, gives you purpose? Like you alluded earlier, you don't live in a bubble- there is a purpose that you are you.

What do you love?

I don't recall saying any of that. In fact I don't believe there is a purpose that I am me, which I am asking why it is that way.

Self created purpose is entirely different than intrinsic purpose. There isn't an actual meaning behind any of this, but the closest we can get to an intrinsic purpose of existence is the way the entity's existence effects the world.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

This topic reminds me of years ago: me, laying in my bed early on a Saturday morning; contemplating the futility of my life and my inevitable death- annihilation into non-existence.

I am convinced that you aren't understanding the point I am trying to make here, because I don't see what death, annihilation, or non-existence has anything to do with this.

 

[Willamena]

Why am I this walking sack of flesh that walks in the human world instead of a walking sack of flesh that sits in captivity at the mercy of humanity?

The question begs that you are something called "life" (I presume the consciousness) that attaches to the flesh or to the soul, rather than that you (consciousness) are the flesh and/or the soul. I think it can be solved by identifying what consciousness knows (the so-called content of thoughts) with the world. There is no division necessary between what is and what you know is--the idea of two separates realms, one for what we know and one for what is real, is nothing more than an interesting idea.

There is not really a solution to this as far as I can see other than two: A) Solipsism, that the reason I am following this consciousness is because this is the only consciousness in existence. B) At some point down the line, fraction everything and at a certain depth things do not make sense, they happen because they happen, no cause only effect. Also known as chaos.

A) That you are a unique consciousness not distinct from the world you know means that for you--for each of us--there is only one consciousness in which all that exists is significant. At least until we kick the bucket. B) One can accept that there is nothing at all supporting the (ideal) really-real world beyond what we know (reference "absolute nothingness" from the Kyoto School). Not even chaos.

But even though this paradox is here, it makes no difference and cannot be dismissed. There is life, it's a fact. It might not make sense but it is here.

So it is.

 

[`mud]

Not believing in 'miracles' I do believe in the reality of life, that gnosis of all that surrounds us, and is in us.
I know that there isn't any 'now', or 'tomorrow', but we all have our yesterdays, those moments that are suddenly past.
Thinking about the consciousness that people speak of,
it doesn't really exsist, it's the 'now' kissing one on the cheek saying goodbye while it becomes yesterday's remembrance,
even if that last moment left us, another one is coming.
It's like dying...we'll all become memories to other people, but our cognizence will be gone.
So as Sum says......enjoy the 'here', cause 'here' is only present shortly, then 'now' becomes 'then'.
~
'mud

 

[Stovepipe_Hat]

• It's something that I feel is unresolved...
• First, we can all agree that there is consciousness, that life and animation is an existing thing....
• Why am I following this brain's activity? Why am I experiencing this collection of activity from this specific brain?

I like your line of questioning. All these issues remain unresolved, and I'm coming to the conclusion that they won't be in the future, either. On your second point, I will note that there are a few people who disagree with the proposition that consciousness exists. Deepak Chopra apparently said, “I do not exist” in an interview covering his lack of fear about death. I don’t really agree with Chopra; the blatant fact of bright colors and blinding pain we can experience needs some explanation other than “it’s an illusion” or “it’s not real.” No doubt someone will come along and tell me I've misunderstood Chopra.

But he did use those exact words, and then started qualifying himself in a way that strikes me as mystical obscurantism. And unfortunately, I find death a rather scary prospect- people who are terminally ill rarely decline or deny having fear. So, while the nature of human subjective experience stays shrouded, it is our most dear possession, the one thing we can't contemplate losing. We cannot imagine the state of nonexistence, because as long as we remember we have always existed.

This touches on what David Chalmers (Australian philosopher) calls the hard problem of consciousness. Basically, why is any physical process conscious? There’s no reason to think complexity, as in a brain’s functions, by itself implies it. There are also difficult related problems centered on what reality and existence are in the first place, whether conscious or not. Even the words cannot be defined in a satisfactory way. I’ve always wondered why I can’t teleport into someone else’s mind and see and feel the world as they are experiencing it. But I can’t. Apparently consciousness is very privy thing; no one else gets invited in. It’s like being in a secure prison you won’t ever leave, but which does have windows you can look out from.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Bump: I think I may have a solution that might work, I in no way am claiming it's truly this way, nor do I actually believe it. I'm simply offering it as a possibility, unless someone explains otherwise.

My attempt to answer it has so far brought to me is that only one being is actually living/conscious during one cycle (that has its own chronological order perpendicular to our chronology, and for the sake of making things easier later on, I'm going to call it Perp Time, short for perpendicular; the time frame that time frames happen in, and the largest timeline unit)

You are reading this, aware of this, thinking of this post in a different cycle. Although it might be simultaneous in our timeline, it isn't in Perp Time. One cycle each time frame, everyone existing on different levels of time but all in the same linear time.

That would explain why this experience of reality is what is being experienced instead of another being's experience of reality. It is reality experiencing itself one consciousness at a time.

Again: In our own time frame it seems as if we are all experiencing different consciousnesses at the same time, but in Perp Time (which is the chronological order of timelines themselves) it is not all at once, instead there is only one timeline at a time, one experience at a time, one cycle at a time.


This calls for a 2nd temporal dimension, but Perp Time is an irrelevant dimension to us as we experience one, same linear timeline. It is as irrelevant as the 3rd dimension is to flatlanders aware of its existence.

 

[DanielR]

Bump: I think I may have a solution that might work, I in no way am claiming it's truly this way, nor do I actually believe it. I'm simply offering it as a possibility, unless someone explains otherwise.

My attempt to answer it has so far brought to me is that only one being is actually living/conscious during one cycle (that has its own chronological order perpendicular to our chronology, and for the sake of making things easier later on, I'm going to call it Perp Time, short for perpendicular; the time frame that time frames happen in, and the largest timeline unit)

You are reading this, aware of this, thinking of this post in a different cycle. Although it might be simultaneous in our timeline, it isn't in Perp Time. One cycle each time frame, everyone existing on different levels of time but all in the same linear time.

That would explain why this experience of reality is what is being experienced instead of another being's experience of reality. It is reality experiencing itself one consciousness at a time.

Again: In our own time frame it seems as if we are all experiencing different consciousnesses at the same time, but in Perp Time (which is the chronological order of timelines themselves) it is not all at once, instead there is only one timeline at a time, one experience at a time, one cycle at a time.


This calls for a 2nd temporal dimension, but Perp Time is an irrelevant dimension to us as we experience one, same linear timeline. It is as irrelevant as the 3rd dimension is to flatlanders aware of its existence.

Hi,

I just wanted to say that I've been pondering on the same questions as you in the OP and I came to the exact same conclusion (see my threads in the Vedanta subforum haha). I think there is some truth behind solipsism. There is no time, everything happens in the NOW even past 'lifes' so to speak. I like how you named it 'Perp Time' .

Regards

These questions can drive you crazy lol

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Hi,

I just wanted to say that I've been pondering on the same questions as you in the OP and I came to the exact same conclusion (see my threads in the Vedanta subforum haha). I think there is some truth behind solipsism. There is no time, everything happens in the NOW even past 'lifes' so to speak. I like how you named it 'Perp Time' .

Regards

These questions can drive you crazy lol

Glad we are on the same page here

These questions can drive one crazy, that's why they're so fun