The Paradox of Omniscience

[The Sum of Awe]

Given that god is omniscient;
Given that you have free will;
God knows the outcome of what will become of you in a situtation called a,
If you chose x
If you chose y
If you chose z
...
..
.
.
.
.
So you have freewill to chose among all those outcomes of you and god is omniscient to know ALL the outcomes even if you chose them or not and knows which one you are inclining towards.
But god has a moral concern to give you the time to make that choice because when you are told you have chosen x which didnt cause you to end up very nice, you cant go out and object, 'no i wouldnt do it. You are a one big tricky god'. Because you are your own witness in this case chosing option x among all the other options given to you.
If you lack the mental capability to the degree of recognizing your options, i.e you are mentally challanged, you are exempt from religion.
All of this can be validated through quran.

But does God not know the specific paths you'll take? The choices you will choose?

 

[Ouroboros]

This is not a paradox of omniscience, rather a paradox of omniscience and freewill. Belief in omniscience does not require belief in freewill. What about the moral nature of such a being does it bring to question?

Not to mention, freewill and omniscience isn't a paradox. The solution to this paradox resides in the belief of "infinite timelines", God knows all of the possible outcomes, and we choose which possible outcomes are taken.

But wouldn't God also know which one we will choose of the possible ones?

It's a bit like comparing "all possible moves in a chess game" to "a specific game of chess between A and B where A chose to move one particular way of all the possible ones." Wouldn't an omniscient God know both the possible moves and also what game was actually played?

 

[Ouroboros]

Epiphany! Wouldn't Omnipresence support the idea of God being a collective conscious then?

That's an interesting thought. Without having thought about it further, I'd say that it possibly might.

 

[ametist]

But does God not know the specific paths you'll take? The choices you will choose?

yes. god is aware of ALL the possible choices you may take and knows what is your outcome at the end of all these possible choices even if you chose them or not. (omniscience)
but only when you personally chose one (exercize of freewill) you yourself are also the witness of your choice along with god. you cant now say 'i wouldnt chose it' you know you had the option and you know you did chose that option.

if you have the mental capacity you know stealing is bad. you are rich and want to get richer and you steal although you know you have option of not stealing. god knows what will become of you when you steal and when you dont steal(omniscience).
only when you chose to steal(freewill), you confirm god that you have taken that road when asked about it.
think of it like parallel realities. god knows all yous in all of them(omniscience) and you pick one and become witness to your choices(freewill).

 

[Thruve]

But does God not know the specific paths you'll take? The choices you will choose?

The choice would have to have been made in the timeline , at some point, for him to see the choice before hand. Note *That doesn't suggest we don't have free will. So yes, he would know the actual path you'd take, but only because you chose it. This doesnt mean he wouldn't know of any other paths you may have taken, or the choices you could have made.

 

[Ouroboros]

The choice would have to have been made in the timeline , at some point, for him to see the choice before hand. Note *That doesn't suggest we don't have free will. So yes, he would know the actual path you'd take, but only because you chose it. This doesnt mean he wouldn't know of any other paths you may have taken, or the choices you could have made.

The whole concept sounds very much like a computer software to me. Computer r programs have choices too. The most used statements for choices in computer language is "if...then" and "switch". Now, does this mean that the computer has free will? The computer could "choose" not to follow the "if" statement since there's an option to not to, but since that's the option it for sure will choose (unless there's something wrong with the hardware, the CPU was born in sin perhaps?) it's a deterministic outcome, just like the deterministic outcome of our choices that are already known before we make them. We won't make any other choice than the choice we are known by the superior power that we will make.

Actually, I think the term "free will" is inherently contradictory in itself. "Free" standing for no boundaries, while "will" is something with restrictions and boundaries. I want or will something means that I have a drive, thought, intention, before the choice is made, so it's not completely free but tied to things leading up to the choice (memories, experiences, genetics, education, etc).

 

[Thruve]

The whole concept sounds very much like a computer software to me. Computer r programs have choices too. The most used statements for choices in computer language is "if...then" and "switch". Now, does this mean that the computer has free will? The computer could "choose" not to follow the "if" statement since there's an option to not to, but since that's the option it for sure will choose (unless there's something wrong with the hardware, the CPU was born in sin perhaps?) it's a deterministic outcome, just like the deterministic outcome of our choices that are already known before we make them. We won't make any other choice than the choice we are known by the superior power that we will make.

Actually, I think the term "free will" is inherently contradictory in itself. "Free" standing for no boundaries, while "will" is something with restrictions and boundaries. I want or will something means that I have a drive, thought, intention, before the choice is made, so it's not completely free but tied to things leading up to the choice (memories, experiences, genetics, education, etc).

If and then in computer programming is used tell the computer what to do under certain conditions. Even if you tell the computer to choose a random number, and to do different things based on the different numbers pulled, it's still random, and the computer will react depending on the if-then statements you provide it with. It's not making a choice, your choice of the conditions is what you'd want to be looking at.

As for your second paragraph, I understand what your saying, almost as if our experiences, etc, condition us to make a specific choice. Regardless, to counter that, I could say that naturally I would make this choice, but just because I want to excercise my free will, im going to make 'this' choice instead. Though, in theory, god would have seen that specific decision anyway, it doesn't suggest that I didn't have the free will to make it.

 

[Ouroboros]

If and then in computer programming is used tell the computer what to do under certain conditions. Even if you tell the computer to choose a random number, and to do different things based on the different numbers pulled, it's still random, and the computer will react depending on the if-then statements you provide it with. It's not making a choice, your choice of the conditions is what you'd want to be looking at.

As for your second paragraph, I understand what your saying, almost as if our experiences, etc, condition us to make a specific choice. Regardless, to counter that, I could say that naturally I would make this choice, but just because I want to excercise my free will, im going to make 'this' choice instead. Though, in theory, god would have seen that specific decision anyway, it doesn't suggest that I didn't have the free will to make it.

But if God knows what decision we're going to make, then it's pre-determined already before we even make the choice. Pre-determined means that it's deterministic, like a machine or algorithm. Free will in such case is just an illusion. To have a non-deterministic system, you have to have some indeterminism in it, i.e. some parts and pieces (decisions) must be left to the unknown. If I roll a die and I know for certainty that it will result in a 3, how can it randomly end up with any number if it must end up with 3? It's a contradiction.

 

[Thruve]

But if God knows what decision we're going to make, then it's pre-determined already before we even make the choice. Pre-determined means that it's deterministic, like a machine or algorithm. Free will in such case is just an illusion. To have a non-deterministic system, you have to have some indeterminism in it, i.e. some parts and pieces (decisions) must be left to the unknown. If I roll a die and I know for certainty that it will result in a 3, how can it randomly end up with any number if it must end up with 3? It's a contradiction.

Here's what I think you may be missing: he knows the decisions ONLY because technically we already made them.
Just because he knows of our decisions/fate before hand doesn't mean he influenced the, or decided them.

 

[Ouroboros]

Here's what I think you may be missing: he knows the decisions ONLY because technically we already made them.

So he knows them at the moment we make them but not before?

Here's the dilemma for me. Think of the number sequence that makes up pi. It starts with 3.1415, and so on. The exact number is defined by an algorithm. Do we know which number comes next? No, but a mathematician can figure it out using the algorithm. So he can know what "pi" is going to choose next before "pi" knows it. It can be any number from 0 to 9. 3.14150 to 3.14159 are all possible outcomes, but the mathematician knows that the next number is 9. And then 2. Then 6. And so on. There's no freedom for "pi" to have any other numbers than the sequence of digits that the algorithm defines. It could be any number, we don't know, pi don't know, but the algorithm knows. So is "pi" free of having any number in the next position? The sequence is a deterministic series. There's no veering off in any direction from what it must be. And if God can know our decision based on our mind before we make the decision, and he knows this from the eternal past, then there never was any other outcome of my decision than the pre-determined one.

 

[Willamena]

Here's what I think you may be missing: he knows the decisions ONLY because technically we already made them.
Just because he knows of our decisions/fate before hand doesn't mean he influenced the, or decided them.

He doesn't have to have influenced them for them to be predetermined, he just has to know them. Knowledge implies truth. That future decisions are 'known' means that the future is fixed. The outcome of decisions cannot happen, and cannot have happened, any other way, and that's where our "freedom" is seen to be robbed.

 

[Thruve]

So he knows them at the moment we make them but not before?

Here's the dilemma for me. Think of the number sequence that makes up pi. It starts with 3.1415, and so on. The exact number is defined by an algorithm. Do we know which number comes next? No, but a mathematician can figure it out using the algorithm. So he can know what "pi" is going to choose next before "pi" knows it. It can be any number from 0 to 9. 3.14150 to 3.14159 are all possible outcomes, but the mathematician knows that the next number is 9. And then 2. Then 6. And so on. There's no freedom for "pi" to have any other numbers than the sequence of digits that the algorithm defines. It could be any number, we don't know, pi don't know, but the algorithm knows. So is "pi" free of having any number in the next position? The sequence is a deterministic series. There's no veering off in any direction from what it must be. And if God can know our decision based on our mind before we make the decision, and he knows this from the eternal past, then there never was any other outcome of my decision than the pre-determined one.

Your still comparing it all using mathematics, which also defines programming a computer. Don't lol. I understand what yor saying, though.

Imagine creating both a male and female on the sins 3. Enable free will, and fast forward slowly for thousands of years to a specific time/event/ what have you. Or rewind it from the end, back to the middle, or perhaps to the beginning as this is what power we'd have of we could perceive time. We'd see all the decisions, all the choices, all the events, etc from conception to our death as a species. That's all in saying lol. Just a theory, anything is possible right?

 

[Thruve]

He doesn't have to have influenced them for them to be predetermined, he just has to know them. Knowledge implies truth. That future decisions are 'known' means that the future is fixed. The outcome of decisions cannot happen, and cannot have happened, any other way, and that's where our "freedom" is seen to be robbed.

Oh, I thought predeterminism was suggesting that influence was involved, or rather decided. Wouldn't that include fixed?

 

[ametist]

He doesn't have to have influenced them for them to be predetermined, he just has to know them. Knowledge implies truth. That future decisions are 'known' means that the future is fixed. The outcome of decisions cannot happen, and cannot have happened, any other way, and that's where our "freedom" is seen to be robbed.

what you say doesmt make much sense to me. you read the whole thread and came to that conclusion or is this just a quick post?

 

[Ouroboros]

Your still comparing it all using mathematics, which also defines programming a computer. Don't lol. I understand what yor saying, though.

Imagine creating both a male and female on the sins 3. Enable free will, and fast forward slowly for thousands of years to a specific time/event/ what have you. Or rewind it from the end, back to the middle, or perhaps to the beginning as this is what power we'd have of we could perceive time. We'd see all the decisions, all the choices, all the events, etc from conception to our death as a species. That's all in saying lol. Just a theory, anything is possible right?

Absolutely. And I'm not bringing the issues up to disprove one or the other but just to point out the problems.

Here's the thing with your illustration. If you can traverse the timeline back and forth and read/look-at/watch at a each given points has an exact parallel in computer science too. LOL! It's called a ROM. Read-only memory. You can move forward with your memory address pointer to any place in the memory and read the bits there. If we had a sequencer moving from address 0 (zero) to the last address without stop, it would be basically playing out what the bits say there. This is how your CD player works, or DVD (VCR, tape, vinyl). They all play from start to end, without change. It's always the same each time you play it. So would the DVD player have the free will or option to invent a new movie in the middle of your watching Spider Man II? Nope. It doesn't unless it's broken. If that's how we live, we're just the reader-head of the DVD player or the needle of a turntable replaying the story that God already has authored. God as the ultimate author, and we're just the narrator of the stories he wrote.

 

[Ouroboros]

Oh, I thought predeterminism was suggesting that influence was involved, or rather decided. Wouldn't that include fixed?

Determined means that it's set, fixed, unchangeable.

Pre-determined means that it was set or fixed before it even happened.

Precognition means that someone knows what is going to happen before it happens, but it also suggests that there is no other "happening" that could happen. If something else happens instead of what was predicted, then the prediction was simply false, and hence not a true prediction at all.

 

[Ouroboros]

what you say doesmt make much sense to me. you read the whole thread and came to that conclusion or is this just a quick post?

Let's say there are two options for me to choose right now. A or B.

And let's say God knows for certainty that I will choose A.

So...

Now I choose B.

That means God was wrong. If I had chosen A because that was my fate/predestination, then I didn't have a real choice. Sure, I had options, but I didn't have the freedom to pick B at all if A was the only choice God knew I would pick.

So either we have free will and God doesn't know. Or God knows everything we're choosing before we do and it's deterministic.

The so-called solutions all of them suggests a half-baked intermediate thing where God knows some of the things we will do, but not all of it. He won't know why, when, or how, but only that at some point I'll be in New York (as an example). He won't know how I got there, train, boat, plane, spaceship, or teleportation, but he do know that I'm going to be there at such-and-such date. In other words, it's a semi-omniscience, not a full one.

 

[George-ananda]

The Paradox of Omniscience


In my Hinduish/Advaitan view the entire universe is thought of as a play/drama of the divine. He also plays and experiences all the roles in the play. He knows everything that will happen as He wrote the play.

But through Maya (illusion of separateness) He/We for a long spiritual evolution experience a sense of ego. At the end of the play the illusion lifts and we are the One (as we really always were).

Seems paradoxical to us who think in terms of our human perspective.

 

[Thruve]

The Paradox of Omniscience


In my Hinduish/Advaitan view the entire universe is thought of as a play/drama of the divine. He also plays and experiences all the roles in the play. He knows everything that will happen as He wrote the play.

But through Maya (illusion of separateness) He/We for a long spiritual evolution experience a sense of ego. At the end of the play the illusion lifts and we are the One (as we really always were).

Seems paradoxical to us who think in terms of our human perspective.

Gasp! Me likey however do you view that metaphorically or literally?

 

[George-ananda]

Gasp! Me likey however do you view that metaphorically or literally?

Err....I guess both