The period after death

[jarofthoughts]

I don't believe anything happens after physical death, except, you know the usual physical stuff, like decomposing and so on, mainly because I don't have any reason to think otherwise.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Metempsychosis and Nietzsche's eternal return is the most plausible IMO. because through consciousness the only time we are aware of is the time we are alive or awake and sometimes dreaming which is a product of the brain. Western atheist tend to ignore the great elephant in the room and that is the role of time. Like for instance there is now estimated to be 13.7 billion years of time from the Big Bang to one's birth and it is only the fairly insignificant 80 or so years we sense any duration or it. So if you are dead for an eternity then even an eternity of time would not come to our attention, which would be highly paradoxical. Unless of course we keep randomly switching our conscious attention to other brains and totally oblivious to any memory that you have lived before. After all if all your memories of this life are obliterated with the death of your brain and unbeknown to you, you switch to another one, who is going to remind you that you have already spent your one life, don’t be greedy.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Metempsychosis and Nietzsche's eternal return is the most plausible IMO. because through consciousness the only time we are aware of is the time we are alive or awake and sometimes dreaming which is a product of the brain. Western atheist tend to ignore the great elephant in the room and that is the role of time. Like for instance there is now estimated to be 13.7 billion years of time from the Big Bang to one's birth and it is only the fairly insignificant 80 or so years we sense any duration or it. So if you are dead for an eternity then even an eternity of time would not come to our attention, which would be highly paradoxical. Unless of course we keep randomly switching our conscious attention to other brains and totally oblivious to any memory that you have lived before. After all if all your memories of this life are obliterated with the death of your brain and unbeknown to you, you switch to another one, who is going to remind you that you have already spent your one life, don’t be greedy.

I get the sense that you were trying to make a point but it seems I missed it somehow. Could you elaborate somewhat on what you mean please?

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

I get the sense that you were trying to make a point but it seems I missed it somehow. Could you elaborate somewhat on what you mean please?

We only sense the passage of time while we are alive but periods of unconsciousness irrespective of how long we would not endure if there was no possible existence after death. Even a googolplex years (10^10^100 years) would pass us by within the blink of an eye which I think is rather paradoxical. The importance of the sense of time is like the elephant in the room.

 

[jarofthoughts]

We only sense the passage of time while we are alive but periods of unconsciousness irrespective of how long we would not endure if there was no possible existence after death. Even a googolplex years (10^10^100 years) would pass us by within the blink of an eye which I think is rather paradoxical. The importance of the sense of time is like the elephant in the room.

Still not entirely sure what you mean but I'll take a stab at it anyway.
The relevant question, I think, then becomes; where were you before you were born?

 

[ninerbuff]

After taking all my viable internal organs that someone can still use, I believe I become great compost.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Still not entirely sure what you mean but I'll take a stab at it anyway.
The relevant question, I think, then becomes; where were you before you were born?

It is not possible to for me to remember as I can remember back to the age of two but that is as far as it goes, which does emphasise the importance of the perception of time because subjectively for me that 13.7 billion years that preceded my birth passed by in the blink of an eye. I think personally the only way around this conundrum with the importance of the perception of time is the Anthropic Principle in its weaker form, which subscribes to a theory that we are simply alive in this reality because we are dead or failed to get born in millions of other alternative realities. In other words the self is necessary rather than what many people believe to be contingent, or even predetermined to be created only the once by some supernatural agent. As for the strong Anthropic principle, I cannot buy that and IMHO smacks a bit too much of intelligent design. And I certainly do not buy those believers of reincarnation who have delusions of memories of their past lives.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't believe anything happens after physical death, except, you know the usual physical stuff, like decomposing and so on, mainly because I don't have any reason to think otherwise.

Scripture agrees with you.
The dead know nothing according to Ecclesiastes 9vs5,10.
Jesus, according to John 11vs11-14, believed the dead sleep the deep sleep of death.
That is what the Psalmist also believed:- Ps 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4.

Like Adam we are mortal.
Adam disobeyed; Adam died.
-Ezekiel 18vs4,20
From dust, Adam returned to dust.

Unlike Adam, future life is held out for the rest of mankind.
Acts 24v15
Scripture shows Jesus will reign over earth for one-thousand years.
There will be a resurrection to either heaven or on earth.
But those of Matthew 25v32 have the prospect of never having to die because those alive around the start of Jesus thousand-year reign can remain alive and keep right on living right into the start of Jesus reign over earth and have the opportunity to have everlasting life in view right here on a paradisaic earth.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

I tend to agree with the OP. I can't help but think there is a nonphysical part of us that leaves our bodies and continues on... in such a state the mind is extremely powerful and influences the nonphysical environment. This would be foreign to people who were just thrown out of their bodies. Once the realization of death occurs, their thoughts about it shape their environment... kind of like the movie What Dreams May Come. It is all mental.

Once when I was rendered unconscious I was "thrown out of my body" so to speak...

Some people say that is your astral body jerking away in shock. To explain this experience some people say that the reason why that experience is possible is because the body is not dead yet, and so the astral body is still "tethered" to it.

The only thing that leads me to think otherwise are those monks... they agree to clinically undergo death for x amount of time... and then they are revived to report their experience.

I will try to find a link...

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Dang... I remember finding it a long time ago...

and now it is un-google-able....

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Scripture agrees with you.
The dead know nothing according to Ecclesiastes 9vs5,10.

I think the Dead in the Ecclesiastes 9vs5,10, is the same Dead that jesus was talking about, when He said : "Let the dead bury their dead." Luke 9:60.
Reflect, had these souls been quickened by the trumpet-call of Jesus, had they risen from the grave of error by the power of his love, the 'judgment of death' would certainly not have been pronounced against them.

(Dead would refer to ignorants or unbelievers in those verse, not literally dead)

Human also has Spirit. The Spirit is not of dust, so, it can't return to dust. What happens to the Spirit of people when they die?

Scripture shows Jesus will reign over earth for one-thousand years.

According to old testimony, Messiah was supposed to be a King. But Jesus said that His kingdom is not of this world. Also, the Scriptures confirm that Kingdom of God is not Observable and no one would tell you where it is, for the Kingdom would be within us. (I understand it as within our heart, meaning He would conquer heart of people, and not the land or worldly power)
So, with respect to His reign, How would He reign on the earth, when He already said, His kingdom is not of this World?

 

[james2ko]

Scripture agrees on all points except:

There will be a resurrection to either heaven or on earth.

You're in the ball park, just in the wrong section Dead Christians will be resurrected to immortal spirit beings. Those that are alive, at the time of Christ return, will be instantly changed from mortal to spirit. Both groups will meet Christ in the "air" (1 Thess 4:17) not "heaven". (John 3:13). After a short period of time--within a few days---Christ and His Saints (1 Thes 3:13; Jud 1:14-15; Zec 14:5) will proceed to descend to Jerusalem (Zec 14:4; Psa 2:6-7) to set up His world ruling government. (Zec 14:9)

But those of Matthew 25v32 have the prospect of never having to die because those alive around the start of Jesus thousand-year reign can remain alive and keep right on living right into the start of Jesus reign over earth and have the opportunity to have everlasting life in view right here on a paradisaic earth.

This parable is referring to the end of the millenium not the beginning. After 1,000 years, a 2nd resurrection to physical life (1 Cor 15:22; Rev 20:5, 11-13) will take place of every man, woman, and child who ever lived and did not get a fair opportunity to know and accept Christ in this life, will be judged or evaluated, using God's Word as a guide (Rev 20:12) by Christ and His saints (1 Cor 6:2) for a separate period of 100 years (Isa 65:20). Those who accept God's way of life will be changed instantly to immortal gloried beings. Those who refuse to change, will live to the end of the 100 yr period and await their fate.

After this judgment period has elapsed, Jesus will engulf the whole earth with fire (2 Pet 3:10-12) With the fire raging, and His Saints soberly standing by, He will perform a 3rd resurrection, to physical life, of those who willfully and stubbornly refuse to accept Christ in this life and the millenium. They will be cast alive into the lake of fire along with those from the 2nd resurrection and simply cease to exist. This is described as the second death. (Rev 20:14-15; 21:8)

This is the hell so commonly referred to in the scriptures. It is a cessation of life (Rom 6:23)--burned to ashes. Not an ever burning tormenting hell fire. God will never subject humans to this type of torture. No wonder Mal 4:3 states, "You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts."

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But don't you believe that Human also has Spirit? The Spirit is not of dust, so, it can't return to dust. So, what happens to the Spirit of people when they die?
According to old testimony, Messiah was supposed to be a King. But Jesus said that His kingdom is not of this world. Also, the Scriptures confirm that Kingdom of God is not Observable and no one would tell you where it is, for the Kingdom would be within us. (I understand it as within our heart, meaning He would conquer heart of people, and not the land or worldly power)
So, with respect to His reign, How do you believe He would reign on the earth, when He already said, His kingdom is not of this World?

What happened to Adam's spirit when he died?
Adam had no spirit of life before God breathed the breath of life into Adam and then after receiving the breath of life.Adam became a living soul.
-Gen 2v7.
So when Adam sinned it was like a fan that was unplugged from it source.
As a fan would slowly wind down so did Adam wind down to death.
From dust, Adam again became dust. Became lifeless without spirit.

Our spirit or life's spirit returns to God in that there is no further hope for us without the resurrection hope. Upon resurrection one's spirit or life force is returned. So spirit is not personality. Just like a high-spirited horse is not personality but a force. Or school spirit is not personality but a lively force as produced by a pep rally.
Ecc 3vs19,20
_________________________________________________________________________

At Luke 17 v20 Jesus is addressing his enemies the religious leaders.
Surely the kingdom was not within them ['you' meaning the Pharisees]
but the kingdom was within them in the sense that Jesus was right there among them and they would not listen. After Jesus concludes what he says to the Pharisees then it is not until verse 22 that Jesus addresses his disciples.

At Luke 19 vs 11-15 Jesus gives his disciples the illustration about a man [Jesus] that would travel away to a far country [heaven] and then later return with the kingdom or kingdom power.

That is why Jesus wants us to pray in the model prayer 'thy kingdom come' until he returns in kingdom power. God's will for heaven is peace where there is no crime, no sickness or death. So by praying for God's will to be done here on earth as it is done in heaven we are praying or asking God to have the same wonderful conditions on earth as in heaven.

So God's kingdom is not part of or involved with earthly kingdoms or governments. Jesus and his followers were neutral to them.
Jesus, as crowned king of God's kingdom, has a heavenly rule over earth.
God's kingdom government is described as a 'stone' at Daniel 2vs 34,35,45.
This 'stone' grows to become a 'great mountain' and in verse 44 God's kingdom replaces all earthly rulerships. And through God's kingdom all suffering on earth will be reversed by Christ Jesus.
-Isaiah 9v7; Micah 4vs3,4; Rev 21vs4,5

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Scripture agrees on all points except:
Dead Christians will be resurrected to immortal spirit beings. Those that are alive, at the time of Christ return will be instantly changed from mortal to spirit. Both groups will meet Christ in the "air" (1 Thess 4:17) not "heaven". (John 3:13). After a short period of time--within a few days---Christ and His Saints (1 Thes 3:13; Jud 1:14-15; Zec 14:5) will proceed to descend to Jerusalem (Zec 14:4; Psa 2:6-7) to set up His world ruling government. (Zec 14:9)
This parable is referring to the end of the millenium not the beginning. After 1,000 years, a 2nd resurrection to physical life (Rev 20:5, 11-13) will take place of every man, woman, and child who ever lived and did not get a fair opportunity to know and accept Christ in this life, and will be judged or evaluated, using God's Word as a guide (Rev 20:12) by Christ and His saints (1 Cor 6:2) for a separate period of 100 years (Isa 65:20). Those who accept God's way of life will be changed instantly to immortal gloried beings. Those who refuse to change, will live to the end of the 100 yr period and await their fate.
After this judgment period has elapsed, Jesus will engulf the whole earth with fire (2 Pet 3:10-12) With the fire raging, and His Saints soberly standing by, He will perform a 3rd resurrection, to physical life, of those who willfully and stubbornly refuse to accept Christ in this life and the millenium. They will be cast alive into the lake of fire along with those from the 2nd resurrection and simply cease to exist. This is described as the second death. (Rev 20:14-15; 21:8)
This is the hell so commonly referred to in the scriptures. It is a cessation of life--burned to ashes. Not an ever burning tormenting hell fire. God will never subject humans to this type of torture. No wonder Mal 4:3 states, "You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts."

How true hell is a cessation of life. Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4.
Jesus was not alive while in hell.- Acts 2vs27,32; Psalm 16v10
How true the definition of the lake of fire is: second death.


Yes, it is dead Christians that are resurrected to immortality in the heavens.
But is it all dead Christians? Jesus has a little flock that he gives the kingdom.
The other sheep of Jesus sheepfold remain on earth.

Jesus 'brothers' of Matthew 25v40; 1st Cor 15v50 receive a heavenly reward.
But notice the sheep-like ones of verse 32 are offered not immortality but everlasting life. One that is immoral can not be destroyed and is death proof.
Adam was mortal and could die. Adam was not offered immortality but everlasting life. Slight difference. Adam [and us] still need to be obedient but also need to eat, sleep, breathe, etc. So we do not have life from within but dependent on outside forces. Jesus 'brothers' like Jesus will be given or granted immortality life from within or within oneself being self contained.
- John 5v26.

'air' in that being resurrected in the clouds.
When was Jesus caught up in the clouds but at his resurrection to heaven.
So Jesus 'brothers' 1 Thess 4v13 will not sleep in death as the rest but have an earlier or first resurrection.- Rev 20v6.
Remember flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom. 1st cor 15v50.
So they do not take their bodies up in the air/ clouds.
They 'put on' immortality.- 1st Cor 15vs53,54.

By the end of the thousand years the rest of the dead did not come to life in the sense that they did not come to 'eternal' life or 'everlasting ' life at that time. Remember one can still fall away until the end of the thousand years.
Once everlasting life [not just life] is granted all those will have proven faithful like Job and Jesus.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

At Luke 17 v20 Jesus is addressing his enemies the religious leaders.
Surely the kingdom was not within them ['you' meaning the Pharisees]
but the kingdom was within them in the sense that Jesus was right there among them and they would not listen.

"My kingdom does not belong to this world. .... John 18:36
Accordin to above, when Jesus came, His kingdom didn't appear while he was in this World, but when He left, then gradually His Kingdom appeared in the world. meaning that while He was here, He didn't have any significant believers, but when He left, the number of followers increased day by day. That's why His kingship was not of this world, but after He went to heaven.

So God's kingdom is not part of or involved with earthly kingdoms or governments. Jesus and his followers were neutral to them.

I agree with this. But this would be the case with regards to His second coming as well. That is, His reign, would not be in a physical sense. similar to the first time.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Personally I don't think we get anywhere by attempting to answer the nature of the period after death by quoting the Bible and more than quoting the Qur'an or the Bhagavad Gita.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Personally I don't think we get anywhere by attempting to answer the nature of the period after death by quoting the Bible and more than quoting the Qur'an or the Bhagavad Gita.

Yes, because, life after death is really, based on a belief, and whatever faith people would have. No one can directly prove what's going to happen after people die.
But lets say, if there is life after death, then the only source that we can refer to is the sacred Books.
and Here is the Baha'i view:
http://info.bahai.org/article-1-4-5-2.html

Entry into the next life has the potential to bring great joy. Bahá'u'lláh likened death to the process of birth. He explains: "The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother."

The analogy to the womb in many ways summarizes the Bahá'í view of earthly existence. Just as the womb constitutes an important place for a person's initial physical development, the physical world provides the matrix for the development of the individual soul. Accordingly, Bahá'ís view life as a sort of workshop, where one can develop and perfect those qualities which will be needed in the next life.

"Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved," Bahá'u'lláh wrote. "By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue can describe."

In the final analysis, heaven can be seen partly as a state of nearness to God; hell is a state of remoteness from God. Each state follows as a natural consequence of individual efforts, or the lack thereof, to develop spiritually. The key to spiritual progress is to follow the path outlined by the Manifestations of God.

Beyond this, the exact nature of the afterlife remains a mystery. "The nature of the soul after death can never be described," Bahá'u'lláh writes.

 

[james2ko]

Jesus was not alive while in hell.- Acts 2vs27,32; Psalm 16v10

The Greek word translated "hell" in Acts 2:27 is actually "Hades" which means
the grave. God did not leave Jesus body in the grave. He was resurrected 3 days and 3 nights later!!!

In Psa 16:10 the Hebrew word "Sheol" is used which is also the grave or pit.

Adam was not offered immortality but everlasting life.

Immortality and Everlasting life are synonymous terms used throughout scripture. There is no indication that these are two different states of consciousness or rewards. (see Rom 2:7; 2 Tim 1:10)

When was Jesus caught up in the clouds but at his resurrection to heaven. So Jesus 'brothers' 1 Thess 4v13 will not sleep in death as the rest but have an earlier or first resurrection.- Rev 20v6. Remember flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom. 1st cor 15v50. So they do not take their bodies up in the air/ clouds. They 'put on' immortality.- 1st Cor 15vs53,54.

By the end of the thousand years the rest of the dead did not come to life in the sense that they did not come to 'eternal' life or 'everlasting ' life at that time. Remember one can still fall away until the end of the thousand years.
Once everlasting life [not just life] is granted all those will have proven faithful like Job and Jesus.

I guess you didn't read a word from my post. if you did, you are totally ignoring it because you are just repeating yourself. Anyway let me ask you one final question:

If Christ is the only name under heaven by which we may be saved, (Acts 4:12) what does the bible say is going to happen to those men, women, and children who lived throughout the ages and did not get an opportunity to hear the gospel?

 

[jarofthoughts]

Or, you could just ask me. I'm just as a reliable source as those texts.

The fact of the matter is that no-one can tell you with any amount of certainty what happens after death, but so far the evidence points to...nothing. When you die, you are dead. The end.

 

[Sententia]

The fact of the matter is that no-one can tell you with any amount of certainty what happens after death, but so far the evidence points to...nothing. When you die, you are dead. The end.

Amen.