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The plight of atheism, is this why the incessant arguing?

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The problem with fundamental beliefs taught 2000+ years ago is largely (but not universally) apparent.
No, the problem that is apparent is what is happening as a result of the abandonment of fundamental Christian beliefs. There is no fundamental Christian belief that varies from " do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I don't think you know what Christian fundamental beliefs are, you are making the HUGE mistake of taking the actions of alleged followers, and extrapolating those as representative of those beliefs. The fundamentals stand separate and distinctly by themselves. What people do in relation to them is purely up to them. To ignore them, accept them, wail against them, or make yourself a hypocrite.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Come to think of it, I was raised among many so-called "non-practicing Catholics".

I suspect that a significant percentage of those were not really theists. Even today it takes a bit of courage and acceptance of unnecessary bother to openly "out" oneself as a non-believer in such a social environment, and if anything that was even more true 15 years or so ago. I have no doubt that many a person ends up curbing their positions on the minor matter of god-belief in order to participate in more significant initiatives from Catholics and other groups.

Heck, I was almost converted into the LDS Church "against my will" despite making it clear from the get-go that I am an atheist.

Add to that the people who simply don't feel strongly one way or another, and it becomes clear that even in doctrines that technically have no provision for non-theists (Christianity, Islaam, arguably Judaism) the reality is considerably more complicated.

Having a place for loved ones may easily (and IMO should automatically) trump matters of doctrinary "purity" on what is ultimately a simple matter of strictly personal preference.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
True.


Uh, no. There are many possible classifications of atheists. But the one you are using is one based on media spin, not on actual attitude or contents.

There is, in truth, no good reason to even speak of so-called "new atheism".
"Media Spin" ? Nonsense, I have read dawkins, hitchen, et.al. I also have read criticism of them from other atheists. Well, " new atheists" is a common term, used by many atheists of the more scholarly, rational stripe. You may discount it, but they don't and the term will continue to be used, because it is very relevant. Now, tell me, how can I be swayed by " media spin " when I watch the news for 10 minutes in the morning, and stream movies and old TV shows in the evening ?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
"Media Spin" ? Nonsense, I have read dawkins, hitchen, et.al.

If you have also read the others that came before, then you know that there is no objective reason to call what they say "new".


I also have read criticism of them from other atheists. Well, " new atheists" is a common term, used by many atheists of the more scholarly, rational stripe.

Uh... are you trying to be sarcastic?

Because, really, what you are saying sounds quite fantasious.

You may discount it, but they don't and the term will continue to be used, because it is very relevant.

Not at all. Its only purpose seems to be to encourage some unjustified perceptions by some critics of atheism.

Now, tell me, how can I be swayed by " media spin " when I watch the news for 10 minutes in the morning, and stream movies and old TV shows in the evening ?

You tell me.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Come to think of it, I was raised among many so-called "non-practicing Catholics".

I suspect that a significant percentage of those were not really theists. Even today it takes a bit of courage and acceptance of unnecessary bother to openly "out" oneself as a non-believer in such a social environment, and if anything that was even more true 15 years or so ago. I have no doubt that many a person ends up curbing their positions on the minor matter of god-belief in order to participate in more significant initiatives from Catholics and other groups.

Heck, I was almost converted into the LDS Church "against my will" despite making it clear from the get-go that I am an atheist.

Add to that the people who simply don't feel strongly one way or another, and it becomes clear that even in doctrines that technically have no provision for non-theists (Christianity, Islaam, arguably Judaism) the reality is considerably more complicated.

Having a place for loved ones may easily (and IMO should automatically) trump matters of doctrinary "purity" on what is ultimately a simple matter of strictly personal preference.
Well, it is all a personal choice, except for the believer. We are told to "love our neighbor". It doesn't say "only those you like, only those who believe in God, only those who live a lifestyle you approve of, or believe as you do". " Doctrinal purity" demands this. It is made clear that only GOD can judge a soul, in relation to a life lived properly. This is not part of a believers mandate and it is wrong to do so. For those in the Church, we may judge actions, but never motive.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
No, I wasn't being sarcastic. It isn't their core belief that makes them "new", it is their attitude, anger, style, and in many cases poor scholarship. One prominent atheist said of Dawkins attack on some books of the OT, " this is the worst defense of atheism I have ever read". For the most part, because they let emotion get in the way, many of their arguments are easily refuted. Whether you like it or not, "new atheism" is an accepted term used by many atheists, as well as believers. Perhaps you should research it, and learn a little more about the world of atheism away from here, and as the
atheist scholars and writers see it.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
No, I wasn't being sarcastic. It isn't their core belief that makes them "new", it is their attitude, anger, style, and in many cases poor scholarship.

Boy, are you out there! That is actually funny.

One prominent atheist said of Dawkins attack on some books of the OT, " this is the worst defense of atheism I have ever read". For the most part, because they let emotion get in the way, many of their arguments are easily refuted. Whether you like it or not, "new atheism" is an accepted term used by many atheists, as well as believers. Perhaps you should research it, and learn a little more about the world of atheism away from here, and as the
atheist scholars and writers see it.
Uh, no, that is not even remotely true.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Boy, are you out there! That is actually funny.


Uh, no, that is not even remotely true.
You simply lack the knowledge to discuss this matter. Do some research, then get back to me. Adios
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
I belive atheist have consistent arguments. They may be far between, but they all speak with coherency. Religious persons can't agree on anything they believe in, but only in that they do belive in something.
Then you haven't read enough atheists. "Religious persons" can't agree on anything they believe in ?" I can't speak for moslems, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindu's, Sikh's, or Native American beliefs, but I can speak for Christianity. I suggest you read the Nicean creed, to which virtually all Christians agree. This covers all the major issues.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
No, the problem that is apparent is what is happening as a result of the abandonment of fundamental Christian beliefs. There is no fundamental Christian belief that varies from " do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I don't think you know what Christian fundamental beliefs are, you are making the HUGE mistake of taking the actions of alleged followers, and extrapolating those as representative of those beliefs. The fundamentals stand separate and distinctly by themselves. What people do in relation to them is purely up to them. To ignore them, accept them, wail against them, or make yourself a hypocrite.

I get what you mean, but I don't think fundamental Christian belief equates simply to the Golden Rule. More's the pity.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I get what you mean, but I don't think fundamental Christian belief equates simply to the Golden Rule. More's the pity.
Then I would suggest you take a little time and explore the fundamental Christian beliefs, you might be surprised. Christ said of the golden "on this hangs all the law and all the prophets". PLEASE don't confuse the fundamental beliefs with the actions or words of those who say they keep them if they speak or act in a judgemental, superior, smug or hurtful manner
 

Jesster

Friendly skeptic
Premium Member
it is apparent he doesn't know what is going on in the world of scholarly religion and atheism. How can one continue a discussion when the response is "no you are wrong" ? Futile. Anger, no, I never get angry with printed words on a monitor. Your glass house metaphor doesn't apply I do have a lot of the knowledge, and, as stated I am not angry. Are you creating a "straw man" ?

No, I'm just using a shortened paraphrase of the old idiom to point out that you are giving this issue a certain attitude, which reflects the same accusations you are throwing at others. You are just starting to flame him at this point, revealing your frustrations and inability to argue with him. Thus, the glass house idiom applies. I'm quite comfortable with most theists, but I must point out the hypocrisy of those who get flustered at atheists in this manner. Should I call you "new theists"?
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
Then you haven't read enough atheists. "Religious persons" can't agree on anything they believe in ?" I can't speak for moslems, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindu's, Sikh's, or Native American beliefs, but I can speak for Christianity. I suggest you read the Nicean creed, to which virtually all Christians agree. This covers all the major issues.
A 60 second quote? From the tons and tons of religious material? You call that consistency? And yes you admit that only a single religion can even agree on that one tiny doctrine.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The ¨new atheists¨ of which dawkins is a perfect example, seem to be angry, very hostile to religion, crass in their words, and overall in actions anger many atheists.

Atheists aren't angry. It's the Christians that are angry. How dare there be a class of people that reject their religion and choose not to be affected by it. When the theocratic contingents have been neutralized, the atheists won't think about them or their religion again.

There is a great representation of them in this forum. Whenever there is a thread regarding Christian thought or doctrine, they fall over themselves to intrude, jeer, and generally disrupt on a thread in which they haven the slightest interest.

So you're one of those Christians who considers his opinions so holy that offering an alternative opinion constitutes bad manners and deliberate disruption.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
That might be because we define Christianity by what it does, not what it says about itself.
Your definition is wrong. Christianity is defined by Christ and the Apostles, nothing else. You can't even identify a Christian that follows the fundamentals, therefore you are constantly led astray by their "self identification". Does a male who self identifies as a female have female chromosomes in their cells ? Is a career criminal who say he follows the US Constitution identified by you as a good citizen ? Actions in relation to the fundamental beliefs defines Christians, not words, memberships, or anything else. Your whole critical, somewhat self righteous house of cards and criticism falls down when simple common sense is applied. You cannot paint with this huge broad brush, your picture is terrible. I see "we" in your post. Are you speaking for others, or are you simply using the "imperial, royal we" ?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Then I would suggest you take a little time and explore the fundamental Christian beliefs, you might be surprised. Christ said of the golden "on this hangs all the law and all the prophets". PLEASE don't confuse the fundamental beliefs with the actions or words of those who say they keep them if they speak or act in a judgemental, superior, smug or hurtful manner

Let me put this another way;
Some become too concerned with the letter of the (Biblical) law and not the spirit.
I'm speaking pretty informally, obviously.
Some Christians try more to live up to examples of selflessness, of the Golden Rule, of turning the other cheek, etc.

Just as 'atheism' is only the beginning of understanding a person, so too does Christian inform relatively little. The person's words and actions are important.

That's why I have very close Christian friends, since we have similar moral compasses, despite the different beliefs.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As to your use of the word ¨ Fundamentalism¨, I think you are really unclear as to what it means.
When I say 'fundamentalism' I mean the belief that every word in the bible is divinely inspired and thus literally true. Neither the Tanakh nor the NT makes any such claim for itself, so it's someone's invention.

And it's the source of all fundamentalism's problems, since it results in countless falsifiable claims that are easily falsified. The earth is NOT flat. The sun does NOT go round it. It did NOT exist before the stars did. It IS about 4.5 bn years old. Plants did NOT exist before the sun did. Birds did NOT exist before land animals did. The theory of evolution accurately describes the development of life on earth and grows stronger all the time.

Why would anyone wishing humanity well want to see fundamentalist nonsense taught to children?

Fundamentalism [...] has nothing to do with fear, or a closed mind
Fundamentalists, if the two or so I've met face to face and the many I've met on the net are any example, are terrified of other ideas, of different views, of challenges to the literal bible, which they read as challenges to their personal salvation, their key to heaven. As for a closed mind, if you have a mind even slightly open, you'll see the bible says the earth is flat and the sun goes round it, just as its authors thought, and that the earth isn't flat, and the sun doesn't go around it. But instead, they create an industry of rationalizing and pretending that black is white ─ at the same time contending the bible's literally true.
and certainly should be taught to the children of the parents that accept it.
If you're happy to teach your children as true, things that are demonstrably false statements about reality, if you think it's good to teach children that their loving god is going to pitch them into the lake of fire for eternity, and that science is a huge dishonest conspiracy, then I can't stop you. But I can't say it strikes me as admirable.
The concept of God is incoherent ? Nonsense.
Excellent. Then put me out of my misery. Tell me what a real god is, a god with objective existence, a god out there independent of anyone's imagination. Then tell me why, if this god has objective existence, you can't give me a credible demonstration of its reality. Why it never says or does anything. Tell me the test ─ the objective test, one that anyone can use, believer or not ─ that will tell us whether any real being or phenomenon we encounter is a god or not.
What is incoherent is the idea the universe created itself
The idea is perfectly coherent ─ that there's a natural pathway from chemistry to life. And work on this perfectly coherent idea is going on all the time, and you can read about progress in the science press. Do you read the science press? No one pretends success yet, but then, no one's yet proved Riemann's hypothesis either. The world is full of things yet to be done.

On what science-based ground do you say our attempts to understand abiogenesis must fail?

If science demonstrates abiogenesis in the lab, will you give up your faith?
that life created itself from the rain runoff from rocks and that the entire, huge universe, ordered itself so perfectly and beautifully with laws keeping it all working, purely by a chance that is so virtually impossible as to boggle the mind.
That's just the argument from incredulity, a fallacy, a subjective reaction that doesn't lead to any conclusion about reality. You need understanding and evidence to argue with science about real things.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Which is in itself an argument against theism. Consistency is evidence of truth.
Consistency isn't evidence of anything, in a presented argument. //consistency of argument premise.

If consistency of argument meant the argument were true, ie you actually followed that logic, you would be part of a religious group that has extreme "consistency" of argument, since those are the most consistent arguments.

/ you're also getting religious/theistic argument mixed up with theistic argument in the context of a religion.
 
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