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The politics of Jesus

Shad

Veteran Member
Jesus rejected 'armed' resistance but offered an alternative form of resistance one that rejected both fight and flight. A new understanding of 'turn the other cheek' etc presented by scholars lend us the historical meaning these gestures had for established powers.
Walter Wink on Jesus

That why he went nuts with a whip in the Temple or told his followers to buy swords right? He never told the centurion to leave the military. You are cherry picking one verse in isolation. You have to also consider the OT given it's history of violence which Jesus is assumed to have accepted due to being a follower of Judaism. Otherwise he would be in the position that he can not rant against use of the Temple as the land the Temple was on was gained via God endorsed warfare.
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
You have to also consider the OT given it's history of violence which Jesus is assumed to have accepted due to being a follower of Judaism.
Exactly!
A Messiah is a human who will get rid of pagan oppressors, by whatever means necessary. A Jewish human.

People who believed that Jesus was the Messiah, willing and God enabled to overthrow the Romans, obviously got caught up short when He was executed.

So, they redefined Messiah. But that didn't stop them from referring to Scripture and making up stories. And a few years or centuries later, we've got people trying to explain "Trinitarian Monotheism" as though it makes sense.
It doesn't.
Tom
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
That why he went nuts with a whip in the Temple or told his followers to buy swords right? He never told the centurion to leave the military. You are cherry picking one verse in isolation. You have to also consider the OT given it's history of violence which Jesus is assumed to have accepted due to being a follower of Judaism. Otherwise he would be in the position that he can not rant against use of the Temple as the land the Temple was on was gained via God endorsed warfare.

Jesus did not preach the status quo. His mission a movement of renewal. As for the ear Jesus said no more of this and healed the ear.
As for the sword, 'It is enough!' the farewell discourse ends abruptly and spoken to the disciples when they take literally what was intended as figurative language about being prepared to face the world’s hostility.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
People who believed that Jesus was the Messiah, willing and God enabled to overthrow the Romans, obviously got caught up short when He was executed.

The question is how much did His followers know, believe about Him during His earthly life. The NT is written in post resurrection faith, sort of Monday morning quaterbacking.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Jesus did not preach the status quo. His mission a movement of renewal. As for the ear Jesus said no more of this and healed the ear.
As for the sword, 'It is enough!' the farewell discourse ends abruptly and spoken to the disciples when they take literally what was intended as figurative language about being prepared to face the world’s hostility.

Irrelevant as per the whipping episode. A pacifist committing violence via whipping is not a pacifist. Try again. Maybe look up what the word means.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Exactly!
A Messiah is a human who will get rid of pagan oppressors, by whatever means necessary. A Jewish human.

Yup. People are just trying to remold Jesus so he is like them as due to name power. Be it silly pacifists or socialists. If they read the text Jesus was the bum in the socialist order before his death. The taker

People who believed that Jesus was the Messiah, willing and God enabled to overthrow the Romans, obviously got caught up short when He was executed.

Yup. And next generation does not actually mean next generation according to them either. Amusing how people ignore language and definition of words when their own text refutes itself

So, they redefined Messiah. But that didn't stop them from referring to Scripture and making up stories. And a few years or centuries later, we've got people trying to explain "Trinitarian Monotheism" as though it makes sense.
It doesn't.
Tom

It make sense just not the way they want it. God has multiple personality disorder. Add one more personality and God can play bridge.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Irrelevant as per the whipping episode. A pacifist committing violence via whipping is not a pacifist. Try again. Maybe look up what the word means.

John is the only account where Jesus makes a whip in the account of the Cleansing.
John stresses the emotion of Jesus passion and commitment to purifying Israel's religion that initiated this action. 'Zeal for your house will consume me'.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In today's terms, where do you think Jesus would sit on the 'political spectrum' (if transferred into our secular thought) and how would you define his politics?

Here's my take on it (please provide your own with justifications!)

Scholarly reconstructions of the biblical data may assist us here:


"...Jesus' message was controversial and threatening to the established institutions of religious and political power in his society: the message carried with it a fundamental transvaluation of values, an exalting of the humble and a critique of the mighty. The theme of reversal seems to have been pervasive in his thought […] This reversal motif is built into the deep structure of Jesus' message, present in all layers of the tradition […] a foundational element of Jesus' teaching."

- Professor Richard Hays (Moral Vision of the New Testament, p. 164)​


"...a ‘revolutionary’ or ‘subversive’ attitude towards empire, wealth, and inequality is an integral part of the earliest [Jesus] tradition and a product of socio-economic changes in Palestine as Jesus was growing up...the Jesus movement interacted with the[se] social upheavals in Galilee and Judea, as well as the Roman empire more broadly. The earliest Palestinian tradition pitted the kingdom of God against Rome, attacked wealth and privilege, supported the poorest members of society, and saw Jesus as an agent of the kingdom in both present and future [in which] rich and poor would be reversed."

- Professor James G. Crossley (Jesus and the Chaos of History: Redirecting the Life of the Historical Jesus, p.163)


"...The kingdom of God is characterized by the active identification and critique of coercive relations of power, and the enactment of new, egalitarian modes of social life. This is seen, perhaps most acutely, in the recurrent, general motif of reversal which is typical of traditions associated with Jesus [....] The socio-political nature of much of this reversal is obvious to a modern reader without knowledge of the specific political, religious and cultural context of first-century Palestine – though such knowledge is necessary for a fuller exploration of its implications.

In Jesus' vision, the kingdom belonged to the poor, not the rich; to the hungry, not those who were full; to the tax-collectors and prostitutes not chiefs priests and the aristocrats; to children not adults; to sinners and not the righteous. Its values were exemplified by foreigners, beggars, and impoverished widows not the religiously, politically and economically powerful. We find this theme in aphorisms, commandments, and sayings ascribed to the historical Jesus, but, perhaps above all, in the parables [...] But perhaps the most compelling evidence of socio-political reversal in traditions associated with Jesus is the recurrent portrayal of his own praxis, as someone who lived with the outcasts and the socially marginal, and in an almost constant state of conflict with those who were not.

The theme of reversal functions not just to expose a number of inequitable relationships, but also to make visible and valorise the powerless within them, and their needs and their desires. In addition to the theme of reversal we can see a significant cluster of traditions in which exploitation, whether economic, legal, theocratic, military, or medical, is exposed and condemned, and responses advocated or made available that affirm both the agency of the oppressed and their capacity to resist such oppression
."

- Professor Justin Meggitt (Anachronism, anarchism and the historical Jesus, p.18-19)


For a comprehensive (and now classic) study of the theme of reversal in the ethics of Jesus see Allen Verhey, The Great Reversal: Ethics and the New Testament (Exeter: Paternoster, 1984)

Personally, in light of the clear evidence, I'd have to place Jesus firmly on the left-wing - at least economically and in terms of the social good - and if pushed to be more precise, probably somewhere between pacifist anarchism and revolutionary socialism.

My rationale runs as follows:

One of the things the majority of historical Jesus scholars can agree on (in spite of the myriad of competing and overlapping perspectives, ranging from apocalyptic prophet, prophet of social change, cynic philosopher, charismatic healer etc.), is that his entire worldview was anchored in the belief in something scholars call a "great reversal" of fortune.

This 'reversal', however conceptualised (and that depends on your paradigm of the historical Jesus), would see the traditional hierarchy of society upended and subverted, with those presently at the bottom of the social order - the poor, the dispossessed, the disabled, prostitutes, the socially marginalised - somehow placed at the top in the 'kingdom', whereas those presently at the highest rungs of society - the rich, the kings, rulers, nobility, priests, teachers of the law - would find themselves cast down to the bottom. (In simplistic terms).

There is basically no scholar trying to reconstruct the historical Jesus who doesn't accept this socio-political-moral belief as being paradigmatic of his worldview. This teaching, one might say basic assumption, is woven into so many disparate logia (sayings), parables and stories in the synoptic tradition, that it has to be accepted as a basic axiom of 'Jesusism'. If we can say at least one thing about what the historical Jesus might have taught, then we can would aver that he taught a great social reversal.

And whatever way you cut it, if transplanted to today, a modern-day Jesus would not be a conservative or defender of the status quo with such a radical ideological standpoint. He would be on the 'left': an opponent of the established institutions of privilege, unequal structures, distribution of resources and power relations / exploitative relationships that preyed on the weak in society. Certainly, if 'conservatism' is nowadays defined by capitalist economics, Jesus would not have supported it. I don't think that's seriously contestable.

Moving on to specifics - what kind of 'leftist' would he be in our contemporary, secular terms? (again just my opinion)

(continued....)
He would be Gandhian... unsurprisingly.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Also, he supposed personal charity, he never said "give all you money to priests and leaders because I'm sure they can be trusted to feed the poor, clothe the sick, and welcome the stranger." No, the emphasis is on " You do it. "
.The above is an either/or dichotomy that ignores what he was actually teaching and why. [see below]

Every now and then, liberal socialists stop hating on Jesus long enough to suggest that he was a socialist. But I'm okay with them continuing to hate him.
Where in the world did you get this "hate" from? Seems that the real "hate" is coming from you on this.

The fact is, we can see a clear picture of what good the Romans and Jewish leaders did. Ummm, let's see. We had possessed people (basically those wirh psych disorders), lepers, poor, etc, etc, etc. And this leadership was doing such a great job of helping others, right? Uhhh no. They were staying at arms length.
A good parent teaches their children to avoid stereotyping others, and yet you repeatedly us stereotyping in this post.
Jesus wasn't a socialist.
I didn't say he was, but there's no doubt that he and his apostles were taking a position at least going in that direction.

Strictly speaking, he was a religious type who believed government was bad, whether it was state or temple government.
No, he didn't say that, so again you're slipping into using stereotyping. At no point did Jesus go against the support of the Sanhedrin to help the poor-- quite the reverse as he doubled-down on this two-pronged involvement with helping the poor in his "Parable of the Widow's Mite" that includes something called "tithing", which is not the same as "charity" if you'd bother to actually look it up in scripture.

You are rather clearly using your own secular politics and projecting "hate" on others. Thus, it is impossible to have a serious discussion under such circumstances. You clearly do not understand Jewish Law on this and how it fits into what Jesus actually taught, and it's abundantly clear that it's not what you imagine. In no way did Jesus teach that mandating helping those in need is wrong, nor is it even remotely logical that he would do that, thus putting innocent people even more at risk.

You're clouding your own judgment on this with basically right-wing-secular politics, and then being utterly disingenuous in using stereotyping and then projecting "hate" onto others. Maybe stop, pray, and think about what you're doing and why you're doing this.

Take care.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
John is the only account where Jesus makes a whip in the account of the Cleansing.

He uses violence without a whip in the other Gospels. John is still considered canon.

John stresses the emotion of Jesus passion and commitment to purifying Israel's religion that initiated this action. 'Zeal for your house will consume me'.

Jesus was still using violence. Ergo not a pacifist.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
The term 'pacifist' does not exist in the NT. Non violent resistance would be a better example.

Of course it doesn't. However keep in mind being non-violent in specific situations is not the same as non-violent for all situations. Also considered what the source you linked contained which is still a form of pacifism. It is also attacking the concept of the just war. As I pointed out this claim is not consistent with the NT nor OT. Walter is interpreting the text to match a view he already held.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Walter is interpreting the text to match a view he already held.

I would think it more from historical research into Roman protocol of the time, thus the full meaning of 'turning of the cheek' and other gestures which are a form of non violent resistance.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
He would be Gandhian... unsurprisingly.

You are not alone in drawing such a comparison :) A number of actual scholars have done so, such as Professor Richard J. Cassidy (a Lukan scholar) in his study, Jesus, Politics, and Society: A Study of Luke's Gospel (2015).

As Professor Richard B. Hayes explains in relation to his scholarship:


"...Cassidy interprets Luke’s Jesus as a nonviolent social dissident who was actually a potential danger to the Roman empire “in approximately the same way that Gandhi was dangerous to British rule in India.”28

Cassidy takes note of Jesus’ concern for outcasts, his condemnation of the wealthy, his critique of unjust and oppressive structures, his call for social relations to be based on service and humility, and his opposition to violence.

In view of these factors, he draws the following conclusion about the Lukan Jesus:

Although Jesus did not constitute the same type of threat to Roman rule as the Zealots and the Parthians, the threat that he posed was, ultimately, not less dangerous…. By espousing radically new social patterns and by refusing to defer to the existing political authorities, Jesus pointed the way to a social order in which neither the Romans nor any other oppressing group would be able to hold sway.29"

(Hays, R.B, Moral Vision of the New Testament p.26)

We have evidence from Luke-Acts that the Jesus movement was perceived by its opponents in this light (quite apart from the fact that Jesus, himself, was executed for sedition as a political criminal), i.e. in the accusations of the Thessalonian mob that tried to lynch St. Paul and Silas:


"These people, who have been turning the world upside down, have come here also. They are all acting contrary to the decrees of the emperor, saying that there is another king named Jesus." (ACTS 17:6–7)

For that reason, I guess its not surprising that Ghandi found inspiration not only from traditional Indian religious philosophies like the ahimsa of Mahavira (Jainism) and the Bhagavad Gita (Hinduism), but also in the very religion of the Western colonialists themselves and its founder, Jesus.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I would think it more from historical research into Roman protocol of the time, thus the full meaning of 'turning of the cheek' and other gestures which are a form of non violent resistance.

A lack of engagement with the material culture and social milieu of Roman Palestine might account for the misreading of Jesus forwarded by Shad.

The horizon of possible responses to the Roman occupation and partition of the Herodian Kingdom of Judaea (annexed and partitioned in 6 AD, when direct Roman rule was imposed on the rump province of Judaea, while Galilee and Perea were put under a client ruler, the Herodian Tetrarch), was not as limited (if one studies the wider context) as is often assumed. i.e. there is a popular notion that Judaea and Galilee were teeming with Zealots just waiting to start the Jewish War.

For 60 years from the last major uprising in 6 AD (when Judaea was partitioned and direct Roman rule imposed on the regions outside Galilee) to the outbreak of the actual Jewish War for independence in 66 AD, that didn't happen. So, obviously the colonised must have been, in that time, exploring a range of resistance and collaborationist efforts dependant on the group in question, as opposed to just militaristic Zealotry - or else the war would have broken out decades earlier than it did.

Whilst the Jews obviously did, ultimately, rise in military rebellion three decades after Jesus's execution, and wage a fruitless war of national independence against the Empire, and undisputably there were many of the Zealot or messianic-violent mind (as demonstrated by the major revolt by Judas of Gamala against the imperial tax in 6 AD), we have evidence of "passive resistance" as well at this time - from Josephus, the era's main chronicler - which tells us that a substantial numbers of Jews were at least amenable to the kind of non-violent resistance that Jesus commends.

Nonviolent protests became a dominant feature in acts of collective resistance in the 20th century, including anarchist resistance. We all know about Mahatma Ghandi's campaign of peaceful, civil disobedience against the British Empire and Martin Luther King's Civil Rights Movement against racial discrimination in the United States.

But where did this idea first emerge? Non-violence, as a concept, is evident in the Jain concept of ahimsa in India, Hindu and Buddhist teachings and, of course, Jesus's command for his disciples to "love" their enemies and turn the other cheek in response to violent provocation. But when did this concept become tied to resistance against tyrannical and discriminatory authority?

So far as we can tell: the first peaceful, non-violent resistance campaign was led by Jews against the Romans.

In around A.D. 27-30 (coterminous with the ministry of John the Baptist and the start of Jesus' ministry), a remarkable event took place in Roman-occupied Judea under the prefecture of Pontius Pilate, which is recorded by the first century Jewish historians Josephus and Philo. Professor Bart Ehrman notes that Pilate was, "a cruel, vicious, hard-headed, insensitive, and brutal ruler".

Pilate had been appointed as prefect by the brutal Roman general Sejanus (since he was then acting in Tiberius's name while the Emperor had retreated to his island resort of Caprii in 26 A.D. and left the empire in the hands of the head of his Praetorian Guard). Sejanus, quite apart from aspiring to seize control of the Empire from Tiberius behind his back, was intensely Judeaophobic according to the contemporary accounts.


Philo, Legatio 24, 159-161

"Matters in Italy became troublesome when Sejanus was organizing his onslaughts. For Tiberius knew the truth, he knew at once after Sejanus' death that the accusations made against the Jewish inhabitants of Rome were false slanders, invented by him because he wished to make away with the nation, knowing that it would take the sole or the principal part in opposing his unholy plots and actions, and would defend the emperor when in danger of becoming the victim of treachery."


Pontius Pilate | Biography, Facts, & Death

Pontius Pilate was appointed prefect of Judaea through the intervention of Sejanus, a favourite of the Roman emperor Tiberius. (That his title was prefect is confirmed by an inscription from Caesarea in ancient Palestine.)

Protected by Sejanus, Pilate incurred the enmity of Jews in Roman-occupied Palestine by insulting their religious sensibilities, as when he hung worship images of the emperor throughout Jerusalem and had coins bearing pagan religious symbols minted. After Sejanus’s fall (31 CE), Pilate was exposed to sharper criticism from certain Jews, who may have capitalized on his vulnerability to obtain a legal death sentence on Jesus (John 19:12)

As the Britannica Encyclopedia entry above explains, circa. 27 - 30 AD, Pontius Pilate installed worship images of the "divine emperor" around the holy city of Jerusalem, deliberately intending to insult and defame Jewish sensibilities against the veneration of human beings as 'gods'. The Jews of Jerusalem raised their voices in protest. Josephus explains that Pilate had gone back to Caesarea and a mass of Jews marched on his palace, demanding the removal of the standards. He refused and threatened to slaughter them with his army, telling his soldiers to bear their swords at the crowds of men, women and children.

And what happened next?

The Jews then staged a massive, non-violent sit-in demonstration for six full days. And Pilate, fearing that if he murdered so many people, including the local aristocracy upon whose connivance the Roman administration relied, that the Emperor Tiberius would demand his return to Rome to account for his actions (indeed, Pilate lost his governorship ten years later for another act of violent repression against the Jews), relented and removed the standards bearing the emperor's image.

And so, a popular non-violent protest had won out against a government's discriminatory policies. The Romans had been humbled by peaceful protesters for the first time in their centuries-long history.

Read these two accounts in Josephus's Jewish War and Antiquities, respectively:



Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War 2.169-174

Pilate, being sent by Tiberius as prefect to Judaea, introduced into Jerusalem by night and under cover the effigies of Caesar which are called standards.

This proceeding, when day broke, aroused immense excitement among the Jews; those on the spot were in consternation, considering their laws to have been trampled under foot, as those laws permit no image to be erected in the city; while the indignation of the townspeople stirred the countryfolk, who flocked together in crowds.

Hastening after Pilate to Caesarea, the Jews implored him to remove the standards from Jerusalem and to uphold the laws of their ancestors. When Pilate refused, they fell prostrate around his palace and for five whole days and nights remained motionless in that position.


On the ensuing day Pilate took his seat on his tribunal in the great stadium and summoning the multitude, with the apparent intention of answering them, gave the arranged signal to his armed soldiers to surround the Jews.

Finding themselves in a ring of troops, three deep, the Jews were struck dumb at this unexpected sight. Pilate, after threatening to cut them down, if they refused to admit Caesar's images, signaled to the soldiers to draw their swords.

Thereupon the Jews, as by concerted action, flung themselves in a body on the ground, extended their necks, and exclaimed that they were ready rather to die than to transgress the law.
Overcome with astonishment at such intense religious zeal, Pilate gave orders for the immediate removal of the standards from Jerusalem.




Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.55-59

Now Pilate, the prefect of Judaea, when he brought his army from Caesarea and removed it to winter quarters in Jerusalem, took a bold step in subversion of the Jewish practices, by introducing into the city the busts of the emperor that were attached to the military standards, for our law forbids the making of images.

It was for this reason that the previous prefects, when they entered the city, used standards that had no such ornaments. Pilate was the first to bring the images into Jerusalem and set them up, doing it without the knowledge of the people, for he entered at night.

But when the people discovered it, they went in a throng to Caesarea and for many days entreated him to take away the images. He refused to yield, since to do so would be an outrage to the emperor; however, since they did not cease entreating him, on the sixth day he secretly armed and placed his troops in position, while he himself came to the speaker's stand. This had been constructed in the stadium, which provided concealment for the army that lay in wait.

When the Jews again engaged in supplication, at a pre-arranged signal he surrounded them with his soldiers and threatened to punish them at once with death if they did not put an end to their tumult and return to their own places.

But they, casting themselves prostrate and baring their throats, declared that they had gladly welcomed death rather than make bold to transgress the wise provisions of the laws. Pilate, astonished at the strength of their devotion to the laws, straightway removed the images from Jerusalem and brought them back to Caesarea.


(continued.....)
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
This is significant, because it demonstrates that "non-violent" resistance to Roman rule is actually attested at the exact same time the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus were operative in Judaea and Galilee. Since we don't know who led or inspired the Jewish crowds of Caesarea and Jerusalem to passively resist Roman policy in this case (as such a feat had not been attempted before in Jewish history), it is possible that Jesus's teaching was involved in this (or that he might have been involved himself, or been inspired by the 'success' of this kind of anti-colonial method).

This is the immediate background against which we should understand Jesus's words in the Sermon on the Mount / Plain:


³⁸You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." ³⁹But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. ⁴⁰And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. ⁴¹And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

— Jesus Christ, English Standard Version (Matthew 5:3842)

²⁷But I say to you who listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, ²⁸bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. ²⁹To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. ³⁰Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. ³¹And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

— Jesus Christ, English Standard Version (Luke 6:27–31)​



As Professor Justin Meggitt explains in relation to this method of 'resistance' advocated by Jesus:


"....[Jesus] advocated responses that affirmed both the agency of the oppressed and their capacity to resist such oppression. An example of this is seen, for example, in the tradition of how one should respond to being pressed into service by the occupying forces in Judea to carry their equipment.184

The command that the victim carry the equipment further than was demanded, if acted upon, would have resulted in striking and unexpected behaviour that could function not just to restore the power of agency to the victim but also to non-violently undermine the assumption, on the part of the soldier, that he, and the colonial regime which he represented, had ultimate authority – a response that could be seen to enact the command to love enemies,185 an idea particularly associated with Jesus in our sources.186 The concern [was] to restore agency to those deprived of it
". (Meggitt, p.20)​
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I would think it more from historical research into Roman protocol of the time, thus the full meaning of 'turning of the cheek' and other gestures which are a form of non violent resistance.

Jewish customs not Roman. It was not about resistance but about humiliation
 
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