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The Pope gives Atheists some credit

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I would obviously argue that each atheist has their own, individual moral code. But I would probably also argue that so does each Christian - hence the perceived problem in the Pope's (among other people's) eyes. Catholic/Christian theists aren't supposed to utilize their own moral discernment, apparently.
The last part is incorrect as all Catholics have the right of personal discernment.

The Church has the right and obligation to teach what it thinks is correct, but we as Catholics have the right to decide what we choose to personally believe. And excellent book that covers this is "Let Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide".
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Pope Francis said in his first General Audience of 2019 that it is better to be an atheist than a churchgoing Christian who hates other people. In 2017, he suggested it was better for one to be an atheist than a Catholic who leads a hypocritical double life.

Wow, a Pope who is calling out those who claim to be Christian.

Its better to deny Jesus than to dislike someone.

Good thing I'm not Catholic.
 
I see the christian is strong in you. Thats no way to be smart

Well, i dont think atheists are stupid in all aspects of there life. Some of them could be smarter then religious folks in some areas of practical life. It all depends on the individual. But, in general, atheists can be smart in there job life, home life, ect.

Its there belief on God that is not the smart part. :D
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Well, i dont think atheists are stupid in all aspects of there life. Some of them could be smarter then religious folks in some areas of practical life. It all depends on the individual. But, in general, atheists can be smart in there job life, home life, ect.

Its there belief on God that is not the smart part. :D

I consider belief in god with absolutely no evidence to be not smart and to call someone who goes solely on the 100% lack of evidence to be not smart is rather strange.

What do you think of people who believe in leprechauns or unicorns or Aphrodite or Anoia? Because precisely the same amount of hard evidence exists.
 
I consider belief in god with absolutely no evidence to be not smart and to call someone who goes solely on the 100% lack of evidence to be not smart is rather strange.

Thats the problem, i DO see evidence for God. I dont see a 100% lack of evidence. I see almost 100% evidence.

What do you think of people who believe in leprechauns or unicorns or Aphrodite or Anoia? Because precisely the same amount of hard evidence exists.

I think all those things are real too.

But, in anycase, evidence for intelligence is in fact stronger.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Thats the problem, i DO see evidence for God. I dont see a 100% lack of evidence. I see almost 100% evidence.

Depends entirely on your threshold of what constitutes evidence. There appears to be several definitions, the one i favour is :-

The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Another seems to be:-

What i believe to be evidence.

I think all those things are real too.

But, in anycase, evidence for intelligence is in fact stronger.

Ahhh, ok
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
The last part is incorrect as all Catholics have the right of personal discernment.

The Church has the right and obligation to teach what it thinks is correct, but we as Catholics have the right to decide what we choose to personally believe. And excellent book that covers this is "Let Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide".
I am honestly glad to hear it.

An honest question however - would this also mean you are allowed/able/entitled to your opinion on God's activities? This would obviously be as described in The Bible, or as newer claims were made that "X" was God's doing, etc.
 
Depends entirely on your threshold of what constitutes evidence. There appears to be several definitions, the one i favour is :-

The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Yes, this is the kind of evidence i go by.

Another seems to be:-

What i believe to be evidence.

Also, yes, i believe X is evidence because it meets all the criteria that God exists.



You dont believe in leprachauns and unicorns? Why not? I also believe in mermaids.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Yes, this is the kind of evidence i go by.

You are wrong, there is no evidence for god, there is opinion and faith. If evidence existed your faith would be void.

Also, yes, i believe X is evidence because it meets all the criteria that God exists.

What X?

You dont believe in leprachauns and unicorns? Why not? I also believe in mermaids.

No evidence, same way as i dont believe in the fsm or magic
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The last part is incorrect as all Catholics have the right of personal discernment.

The Church has the right and obligation to teach what it thinks is correct, but we as Catholics have the right to decide what we choose to personally believe. And excellent book that covers this is "Let Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide".


"The conscience is the innermost and most secret nucleus of man. There he withdraws with his intellectual capacities into complete separation, alone with himself or better, alone with God, whose voice echoes in his conscience. There he decides over good or bad. There choses between victory or defeat." Pius XII

I've never seen someone walk so close to the edge of heresy, for so long.

Yes you have, his name is Jesus.


There's a move on now that includes some 16 bishops in the catholic church to have pope Francis declared a heretic.

Jesus is at the heart of Francis' teaching and preaching, not the tired tradition of the Church. He follows Vat II which his enemies do not validate. A good example is Francis' 'Stations of the Cross' on Good Friday.

Second Station: Jesus takes up His Cross

A quick reference to the Christian crucifix is immediately followed by mention of “today’s newly crucified: the homeless; the young deprived of hope, without work, and without prospects; the immigrants relegated to slums at the fringe of our societies after having endured untold suffering.” The “marginalized, exploited and forgotten” then also get a mention, and discrimination is denounced. Thus far the meditation. The prayer that follows mentions Christ as our model for living and ends with the petition “that we may put our lives always at the service of others.”
The Pope gives Atheists some credit

The actual wording

Second Station
Jesus takes up his Cross


If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me” (Lk 9:23)

Meditation:

Lord Jesus, it is easy to wear a crucifix on a chain around our neck or to use it to decorate the walls of our beautiful cathedrals or homes. It is less easy to encounter and acknowledge today’s newly crucified: the homeless; the young deprived of hope, without work, and without prospects; the immigrants relegated to slums at the fringe of our societies after having endured untold suffering. Sadly, these camps, unsafe and insecure, are being razed to the ground along with the dreams and hopes of thousands of marginalized, exploited and forgotten women and men. How many children, too, suffer discrimination on the basis of their origin, the color of their skin or their social status? How many mothers suffer the humiliation of seeing their children mocked and deprived of opportunities open to their schoolmates and others their age?
Text for the Way of the Cross Led by Pope Francis, April 19, 2019, Colesseum - ZENIT - English

There is much in common with what Trump wants for the country, backward retreat.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
No, based on recent paedophile coverups, most people would agree.
Which was estimated at no more than 2% of priests at its peak, and is way down from there. However, even 2% is too high as even if it were only 2 people.

But when you blame the entire Church for this, the vast majority of people whom are undoubtedly innocent, you are doing "the devil's work" by stereotyping and demonizing the entire body, which violates the Commandment that we are not to "bear false witness" against each other.

On top of that, do you honestly think that even the apostles didn't sin? And aren't you aware that Paul warns of those people who will cause division within the community, which is what you are doing?

I don't care if "most people would agree" as you posted because morality is not based on there being a majority, especially since the Church was very much a minority in eretz Israel and every country in the rest of the world until the 4th century. Jesus didn't ask his followers to take a vote on what's moral or immoral, BB.

If you don't like going to a Catholic Church for whatever reason, then don't go, but when you violate basic Christian decency through stereotyping and name-calling, then I think you should maybe do some introspection in regards to your own faith. If the assembly you belong to somehow tells you that what you did is moral and befitting of Jesus' teachings, then let me recommend you find a new assembly that actually teaches what Jesus and the apostles actually taught is moral.

Enough.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
An honest question however - would this also mean you are allowed/able/entitled to your opinion on God's activities? This would obviously be as described in The Bible, or as newer claims were made that "X" was God's doing, etc.
Yes.

There's a difference between what I as an educator within the Church can teach versus what I as a Catholic personally believe. When I have taught Catholic theology (I'm starting up again this fall after an absence of 20+ years), I must teach Catholic theology-- not my opinions. I'm used to that because when I taught my poli sci course for roughly 25 years, I did not teach it as a Republican or Democrat because I wasn't hired to teach my opinions. At the end of each semester I had students fill out an anonymous questionaire to make certain I was being objective.

BTW, thank you so much for asking a real question and not a loaded one.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
"The conscience is the innermost and most secret nucleus of man. There he withdraws with his intellectual capacities into complete separation, alone with himself or better, alone with God, whose voice echoes in his conscience. There he decides over good or bad. There choses between victory or defeat." Pius XII
Thank you so much for that quote.
 
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