The Popular Vote is Irrelevant

[Watchmen]

I think you're speaking to a different issue than the people talking about the popular vote are. There's a strategic question ("what sort of result should we be trying to achieve?") and a tactical question ("what rules should we put in place so that result will happen?").

As I touched on in my first post, I think most people would say that the desired result is something like "the will of the people should be reflected in who is chosen President." Is this your position as well?

Assuming your answer is "yes", do you agree that the popular vote is a decent measure of the will of the people?

Yes. We want the will of the people.

No. The popular vote is not a measure of the will of the people given the current system. Do you understand why not?

 

[Lyndon]

Sounds like whining to me!!!!

 

[Watchmen]

The popular vote is irrelevant to who won the election, but the fact Trump lost the popular vote is relevant evidence that the majority of the American electorate weren't duped by him.

Wrong. The popular vote is not evidence of anything where it does not matter to the results. You understand the candidates would have campaigned differently if the rules called for win by popular vote, right? You understand the resulting numbers would be different, right? And neither you nor me know how such an election would have turned out.

 

[Quetzal]

But if we're to invoke history, remember that Hillary
belongs to the party which protected slavery.

#TRIGGERED OH YEAH, WELL TRUMP IS A JERK FACE! So there!

More to your post, it is interesting to see the evolution of the various parties through their existence.

 

[Watchmen]

Sounds like whining to me!!!!

How so?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Wrong. It does not accurately reflect support or lack thereof because the popular vote isn't how one wins the presidency.

IOW, the rules shouldn't be different because they are what they are?

Again, if it was popular vote, Trump would have spent time in California and the numbers could have been very different.

IOW, a different system would have encouraged the candidates to get more support from the people? Why would this be bad?

There are a ton of people in blue states who didn't vote for Trump and a number of people in red states who didn't vote for Hillary. We don't know what the true "popular" sentiment is. And don't believe the polls. They were proven disastrously wrong in election night.

When people talk about Clinton carrying the popular vote, they're talking about the election results.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why do you think they're complaining *just* for that reason?

Objections to the electoral college only rose to a deafening volume after she lost.

Edit: would it also be fair to say that Trump supporters aren't complaining about this undemocratic result because they benefit from it?

I disagree because of one difference.....
Hillary voters thought her win was certain, while Trump's thought him a long shot.
So Dems had a sense of entitlement dashed, hence the wailing & gnashing of teeth.

 

[Parchment]

The popular vote is irrelevant to who won the election, but the fact Trump lost the popular vote is relevant evidence that the majority of the American electorate weren't duped by him.

Are you saying that RT news didn't have as much influence as was stated in the original report? Do you doubt the multiple intelligence communities reports even just a little? "**** gate" was shown as a lie and CNN and other news agencies reported on it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes. We want the will of the people.

No. The popular vote is not a measure of the will of the people given the current system. Do you understand why not?

No, I don't.

Edit: the will of the people is independent of any particular system. It's the thing you try to set your system up to achieve.

 

[Neo Deist]

The electoral college system was set up to give slave states more power to block abolitionist legislation while also not giving slaves any say in the system.

 

[Revoltingest]

#TRIGGERED OH YEAH, WELL TRUMP IS A JERK FACE! So there!

More to your post, it is interesting to see the evolution of the various parties through their existence.

And the perception of this evolution is fascinating.
How they see themselves differs from the outsider view.

 

[Sunstone]

Wrong. The popular vote is not evidence of anything where it does not matter to the results. You understand the candidates would have campaigned differently if the rules called for win by popular vote, right? You understand the resulting numbers would be different, right? And neither you nor me know how such an election would have turned out.

The fact is the majority of the active electorate was not duped by Trump. You are merely arguing that they could have been if Trump had campaigned in California, etc. That's not a fact, that's a speculation.

 

[Quetzal]

How they see themselves differs from the outsider view.

Whacha mean?

 

[Onyx]

Further more the U.S. was not meant to be a pure democracy, it is a representative republic.

This.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Objections to the electoral college only rose to a deafening volume after she lost.

This time.

I remember outcries from other times when the popular vote and the electoral college disagreed.

I disagree because of one difference.....
Hillary voters thought her win was certain, while Trump's thought him a long shot.
So Dems had a sense of entitlement dashed, hence the wailing & gnashing of teeth.

Whatever you need to tell yourself.

 

[Revoltingest]

Wrong. The popular vote is irrelevant. Why? Because it would have been different had the rules called for a popular vote. Maybe Trump still would have won. Maybe Hillary would have won. The point is, no one knows. Not sure how you take that as whining.

The real relevance of the pop vote is that Democrats can find hope in a losing election being so close.
If they run a better candidate & campaign next time around, then perhaps they'll win.
But for the next 4 years, they're the losers.

 

[Adramelek]

Now its the Trump supporters that are the whiners, the lost the popular vote fair and square and all they can do is whine about it!!

Not sure what planet your living on, but it is the Clinton supporters and those on the far left who are whining and are in denial of the democrats overwhelming losses across the board, not just the presidency.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Further more the U.S. was not meant to be a pure democracy, it is a representative republic.

If you want to play that card, then tying the hands of the electoral college goes against what was originally intended. The college members were supposed to be free to deliberate and decide for themselves who the President should be.

 

[Parchment]

The fact is the majority of the active electorate was not duped by Trump. You are merely arguing that they could have been if Trump had campaigned in California, etc. That's not a fact, that's a speculation.

And in the end is the fact that Donald Trump is your President for the next four years, deal with it boy.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

This.

Which is irrelevent to the conversation.