The Prince of Lies?

[Quagmire]

It is true that the Bible 'only' calls him the Father of Lies, but I've heard Christians call him Prince of Lies as well.
However, if you prefer, let's go with Father.

It isn't about preference it's about accuracy.

The reason I think it's an important distinction to make is that "Prince" suggests someone in charge of or ruling over something whereas "Father" denotes the source of something.

The way I interpret much of the cosmological aspects of the Gospels is/are as representations of different aspects of the human psyche.

If Satan represents the self-destructive or self-deceptive aspects, then it's much more constructive to view him as that part of our psyche that creates misunderstanding/denial/rationalizations/etc. than it is to assign him a place as, say, the foremost practitioner of all of the above. In that role the symbolism seems useless (for the purposes that I'm proposing), and the Satan character doesn't appear to be serving any purpose unless you consider him an actual entity.

but I've heard Christians call him Prince of Lies as well.

Of course, the distinction isn't as important to people who do consider him an actual entity. Even then, you would have to ask why the change in reference had become common usage to people who view the cosmology literally.

 

[fahrenheit]

But, as has been pointed out, they didn't die from eating the apple.

They died spiritually, just as Christians believe everyone is dead spiritually.
And to what someone else said, they did die eventually. I would think it rather absurd for them to die if they were the only humans living in the Garden of Eden.

So, if I'm reading you right, you imply that I, being an atheist, cannot make correct moral choices? Is that correct?

Quite the contrary actually, you see all of us gain our perception of justice and what is right and wrong from the society we live in. This is not a religious idea, but a psychological and sociological fact. So because our society is heavily founded from the Abrahamic religions, as is most of western society, it could be argued that God set the rules for society to live and we simply have been following them as generations have passed on these rules to each new generation.

Then why the reward of heaven and punishment of hell if not as incentives to serve god for purely selfish reasons?

Unfortunately that is the case among many Christians, their basis of faith coming from the punishment they could receive. The truth is though that if we are to trust in the Gospels, Jesus hardly ever talked about hell and punishment. His message was of honoring God, not of doing what it takes to get to heaven. He even went as far to say there is nothing we can do to go to heaven, it is the Lord's grace that saves us.

A point you have yet to prove.
I'm listening.

Obviously I'm not the person you quoted but I would be interested to see if I can answer.
I'm assuming the unproven fact was of Satan misleading todays world?

That seems like a simple answer my friend, all you need to do is watch any comedy stand up show. You will see humorous (or less than) bits about todays society and how crazy everyone is. I'm not going to get into a long preachy message about how messed up our society is (nor should I, it should be obvious), but it seems we just chalk it up to thats how humans behave or we just ignore it because our own lives don't necessarily fit into that mold and we delude ourselves into believing the world isn't that bad.

I'm suggesting that maybe it is an outside influence, maybe our world is the way it is because we've lost our connection to God, and we focus more on our sin and our personal pleasures like lust and jealousy just to fulfill our own desires; and in a way we go with Satan in such actions.

So really there is no way to prove that Satan is misleading this world, I can only say to observe what you know is out there and ask if its really because humans are naturally so depraved.

 

[Levite]

I have sometimes heard various people of the Abrahamic faiths refer to Satan as the Prince of Lies.
However, when looking at the scriptures I have been unable to find him lying anywhere.
Now, I'm far from being an expert on neither the Bible nor the Quran (although I have read both), so I might be missing something.

My question is this: Why is Satan sometimes referred to as The Prince of Lies?

No idea. But then, Judaism doesn't believe in "the devil," so I wouldn't know.

 

[jarofthoughts]

They died spiritually, just as Christians believe everyone is dead spiritually.
And to what someone else said, they did die eventually. I would think it rather absurd for them to die if they were the only humans living in the Garden of Eden.

Ah... They died SPIRITUALLY!
At this point I am somewhat tempted to suggest that God takes a class in clear and consistent communication. Because according to the text in the Bible, the part about it being spiritually and not bodily is not made clear at all.

However, seeing as eating the apple (Let's go with apple. I know the original text names it as fruit, but apple seems to be the image most people relate to.) apparently has a two-fold function; making you spiritually dead AND making you capable of determining between right and wrong, is it wrong to assume that you therefore HAVE to be spiritually dead to be able to determine what's right and what's wrong?

Quite the contrary actually, you see all of us gain our perception of justice and what is right and wrong from the society we live in. This is not a religious idea, but a psychological and sociological fact. So because our society is heavily founded from the Abrahamic religions, as is most of western society, it could be argued that God set the rules for society to live and we simply have been following them as generations have passed on these rules to each new generation.

So, what about those societies who has not been touched at all by the Abrahamic religions? I know they are few and far between, but they do indeed exist.
Or what about the cultures that existed before the Abrahamic religions existed?
Are you claiming that, say, Hindus were completely unable to determine the difference between right and wrong?

Unfortunately that is the case among many Christians, their basis of faith coming from the punishment they could receive. The truth is though that if we are to trust in the Gospels, Jesus hardly ever talked about hell and punishment. His message was of honoring God, not of doing what it takes to get to heaven. He even went as far to say there is nothing we can do to go to heaven, it is the Lord's grace that saves us.

And that has also been the doctrine of, among others, the Catholic Church for centuries. No wonder people get the wrong idea... :sarcastic

Obviously I'm not the person you quoted but I would be interested to see if I can answer.
I'm assuming the unproven fact was of Satan misleading todays world?

That seems like a simple answer my friend, all you need to do is watch any comedy stand up show. You will see humorous (or less than) bits about todays society and how crazy everyone is. I'm not going to get into a long preachy message about how messed up our society is (nor should I, it should be obvious), but it seems we just chalk it up to thats how humans behave or we just ignore it because our own lives don't necessarily fit into that mold and we delude ourselves into believing the world isn't that bad.

I'm suggesting that maybe it is an outside influence, maybe our world is the way it is because we've lost our connection to God, and we focus more on our sin and our personal pleasures like lust and jealousy just to fulfill our own desires; and in a way we go with Satan in such actions.

So really there is no way to prove that Satan is misleading this world, I can only say to observe what you know is out there and ask if its really because humans are naturally so depraved.

But that isn't true though, is it? I mean, I may be special in that I live in Norway, but this is arguably the best functioning society in the history of mankind. (I'll be happy to provide empirical evidence to this fact if need be).
Not to mention that this is also one of the most secular societies in history, so surely that cannot be the connection?

 

[Koldo]

They died spiritually, just as Christians believe everyone is dead spiritually.
And to what someone else said, they did die eventually. I would think it rather absurd for them to die if they were the only humans living in the Garden of Eden.

What part of the text leads you to this conclusion?

 

[filthy tugboat]

Absolutely not. He lied when he told Eve "You positively will not die". (Gen. 3:4)
That was a lie. Eve and Adam did die. God told them the truth. Satan misled Eve.

Eventually they died but that was a result of God's choice to prevent them access to the tree of life. Had God told them what would really happen if they ate from the tree then perhaps it would have been avoidable. Satan's words were not necessarily a lie as the text itself implies instant death rather than eventual death.

Further, Satan slandered God, implying that by eating the fruit, they could be like God, free to make their own self-determination to decide what is right and wrong, good or bad,completely independent of their Creator. That too, was a lie, one still believed by millions today.

You might need to substantiate this.

History and current events prove conclusively that man cannot successfully make correct moral choices without direction from God.

What is a "correct moral choice"? Has a "correct moral choice" ever been made, with or without "direction from God"? Is "God" even capable of giving "direction"?

Satan has since slandered humans, as he did Job, asserting that no one will serve God for unselfish reasons. Revelation 12:8 says that Satan is "misleading the entire inhabited earth", still spreading lies and false teachings in opposition to God.
Jesus did not overstate matters when he called Satan the father or originator of the lie.

The Bible may reference Satan as "The Father of Lies" and such but we are after specific instances where Satan has lied.

 

[filthy tugboat]

They died spiritually, just as Christians believe everyone is dead spiritually.

What makes you think Adam and Eve died spiritually? What makes you think all Christians believe everyone is dead spiritually?

And to what someone else said, they did die eventually. I would think it rather absurd for them to die if they were the only humans living in the Garden of Eden.

What you find absurd or not has no bearing on the debate. The Genesis story suggests that eternal life is dependent on the Tree of Life and Gods decision to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden is what eventuated with their death. Had God been more forthcoming with his intentions if Adam and Eve ate the fruit then perhaps the story could have gone differently. Nonetheless, I don't think we can assume Satan knew what God would do if Adam and Eve ate the fruit and he appeared to know that the fruit would not kill them directly so his suggestion may well have been in earnest.

Quite the contrary actually, you see all of us gain our perception of justice and what is right and wrong from the society we live in. This is not a religious idea, but a psychological and sociological fact.

Agreed.

So because our society is heavily founded from the Abrahamic religions, as is most of western society, it could be argued that God set the rules for society to live and we simply have been following them as generations have passed on these rules to each new generation.

That is of course presuming a God has anything to do with the Abrahamic religions. None the less I think it is a stretch to base the common laws found in western society on the Abrahamic religions. Most of the heritage from those religions has been discarded over the years, theocratic nation's have been tossed, freedom of speech has been permitted, slavery has been tossed, punishment for adultery has been tossed. Basically the governments in Western civilization has largely discarded religious input.

Obviously I'm not the person you quoted but I would be interested to see if I can answer.
I'm assuming the unproven fact was of Satan misleading todays world?

That seems like a simple answer my friend, all you need to do is watch any comedy stand up show. You will see humorous (or less than) bits about todays society and how crazy everyone is. I'm not going to get into a long preachy message about how messed up our society is (nor should I, it should be obvious), but it seems we just chalk it up to thats how humans behave or we just ignore it because our own lives don't necessarily fit into that mold and we delude ourselves into believing the world isn't that bad.

Not everyone is quite as ignorant as you portray them.

I'm suggesting that maybe it is an outside influence, maybe our world is the way it is because we've lost our connection to God, and we focus more on our sin and our personal pleasures like lust and jealousy just to fulfill our own desires; and in a way we go with Satan in such actions.

If you were to suppose this, you would first have to show that we originally had a connection with God or a connection with God could be achieved.

Also, what is so bad about lust and jealousy? Why would they result in a "messed up society"?

 

[rusra02]

But, as has been pointed out, they didn't die from eating the apple.
That was a lie and the serpent told the truth in that particular matter.
They died because god denied them the possibility of eating from the Tree of Life.

They died because they disobeyed their Creator, just as God said they would. Satan said they would not die. I leave it to you to decide who told the truth.

So, if I'm reading you right, you imply that I, being an atheist, cannot make correct moral choices? Is that correct?

Apart from God, "it does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step" (Jeremiah 10:23). No human can successfully direct their life apart from God. Any moral values we have come from our conscience, an inherent sense of right and wrong, given to us by our Creator. So any correct moral choice you do make is as a result of God's gift to you and all mankind. (Romans 2:14,15)
However, conscience is not a reliable moral compass without direction from God. That is why people commit the most heinous of acts and feel no compunction.

Is that a lie?
Then why the reward of heaven and punishment of hell if not as incentives to serve god for purely selfish reasons?

The Bible does not teach that wicked ones will be tormented in a fiery hell, so your premise is incorrect. God does reward those faithful to him. But serving God simply for the reward he offers is certainly not sufficient for most people to change their lives. Like Job, there are many people who serve God because they love him and want to do his will. They want to please God, and are willing to suffer, if need be, rather than sin against him.

Seems to me Satan called it like it was.

One has only to see the results of man's rebellion to decide who told it like it was.
A point you have yet to prove.
I'm listening.

Again, the world we live in is the strongest proof that independence from God leads to suffering, wickedness, and death. As Proverbs 14:12 states "There exists a way that is upright before a man, but the ways of death are the end of it afterward."

 

[jarofthoughts]

Again, the world we live in is the strongest proof that independence from God leads to suffering, wickedness, and death.

Care to substantiate that claim?
Claiming it does not make it so...

 

[Thief]

A lie is defined as: "an intentionally false statement."
Dictionary search results : Oxford Dictionaries Online

Which means that withholding information, while arguably wrong in certain situations, does not constitute lying.

Now if you want to bang definition back and forth...here we go.

If I say to you only what I want you to hear.....
it will shift the perspective of what I tell you...and the way you hear it.

If I say to you .....'with intent'....anything....
was it with intent to harm?...to deceive?

If you think a lie is nothing more than a deliberate speaking of a false idea....then you are one to be easily deceived.

Ask me to tell you the truth....and I withhold an item important to your understanding....have I not lied to you?

Your next action taken....would do more harm...not knowing all that you could have.

Especially if you're foolish enough to repeat what you were told...deceiving others as well.

Speaking as if you know.....and you do not....is deception.....
whether you realize it or not.
Not having all of the 'facts' will cause you to look foolish in the eyes of others.

Such half truth....is a lie.

And if you insist...and I realize it later....would I not return, and call you...
a liar?

 

[PolyHedral]

They died because they disobeyed their Creator, just as God said they would. Satan said they would not die. I leave it to you to decide who told the truth.

We don't know what Satan knew at that point. Satan's statement also seems to mean, "You surely will not die [from eating the fruit]", rather than "You surely will not die [ever]." The former is entirely true.

 

[filthy tugboat]

Now if you want to bang definition back and forth...here we go.

If I say to you only what I want you to hear.....
it will shift the perspective of what I tell you...and the way you hear it.

Indeed.

If I say to you .....'with intent'....anything....
was it with intent to harm?...to deceive?

That doesn't matter, a lie is a lie, whether out of good natured encouragement or in an attempt to mislead and disguise the truth. I am not suggesting lying has the same moral implications no matter the intention, I am saying that it is still a lie even if it was done with the intention to cause harm.

If you think a lie is nothing more than a deliberate speaking of a false idea....then you are one to be easily deceived.

Why?

Ask me to tell you the truth....and I withhold an item important to your understanding....have I not lied to you?

Yes, that is considered a lie by omission.

Your next action taken....would do more harm...not knowing all that you could have.

Especially if you're foolish enough to repeat what you were told...deceiving others as well.

Indeed.

Speaking as if you know.....and you do not....is deception.....
whether you realize it or not.
Not having all of the 'facts' will cause you to look foolish in the eyes of others.

Such half truth....is a lie.

Not if it wasn't intentional. Lying requires intent and knowledge that what you are speaking is not true. If you believe a false statement and tell others that this statement is true, you are not lying, you are just wrong.

And if you insist...and I realize it later....would I not return, and call you...
a liar?

You may accuse one of being a liar but if their retort was, "I didn't realise" and they actually mean it then they are no more a liar than you were when you thought that Santa was real(presuming of course that you did, if you didn't I'm sure you can provide a different fairytale or something to place in here).

 

[ellenjanuary]

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Nobody lied. (Ain't no lies in the Bible! Wassa matter for you!)

God lays it out; Don't mess with it lest you die.
Serpent replies: Ye shall not surely die, first you gonna learn stuff...

And what they should have learned, is fess up! All this passing of the blame, makes it worse for everybody! That's the whole ball of wax; failure to face the facts. There is one character in the drama of the Bible - that must lie - absolutely, positively, mandatory.

God.

So how does god get around that jazz, still look cool? Prophets. If this book means something to you; we're not listening to God, here, not Adam, we are listening to Moses. Now, what was the real job of Moses? Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus; where he lays down the law for alla his peeps, for alla time. That should be obvious. It should also be obvious, Genesis is merely backstory. I just wonder, if anybody ever tries to feel this stuff, to live this stuff...

What do we get out of it? Creationism... from backstory... when Vision from God blinded some eighty-three year old dude, just trying to get his peeps to da hood.... grrr....

 

[Thief]

Indeed.



That doesn't matter, a lie is a lie, whether out of good natured encouragement or in an attempt to mislead and disguise the truth. I am not suggesting lying has the same moral implications no matter the intention, I am saying that it is still a lie even if it was done with the intention to cause harm.



Why?



Yes, that is considered a lie by omission.



Indeed.



Not if it wasn't intentional. Lying requires intent and knowledge that what you are speaking is not true. If you believe a false statement and tell others that this statement is true, you are not lying, you are just wrong.



You may accuse one of being a liar but if their retort was, "I didn't realise" and they actually mean it then they are no more a liar than you were when you thought that Santa was real(presuming of course that you did, if you didn't I'm sure you can provide a different fairytale or something to place in here).

And this would cause me to ask....

Do you know the difference......deception...as to lying....as to being misinformed....

And what if the consequence for believing is death?

As this is under the title of religious debate....
What if non-believers are in danger of damnation?
(religious zeal)

What if action taken results in dying?
(eating forbidden fruit)

Imprisonment.
(false witness)

Banishment.
(Cain)

The Genesis story is a turning point in the course of Man.
It is first physical.
And then spiritual.

As you make the choice what to believe....
you are also choosing which side you're on.

Did God lie to Adam and Eve?
Or was it the serpent?

If a lie was spoken....what was it?...and by whom?
And you think the intent nullifies the action?

 

[Flankerl]

I have sometimes heard various people of the Abrahamic faiths refer to Satan as the Prince of Lies.

Who are you talking about?

The christian/muslim Satan or the jewish HaSatan? There is a difference.

 

[fahrenheit]

Ah... They died SPIRITUALLY!
At this point I am somewhat tempted to suggest that God takes a class in clear and consistent communication. Because according to the text in the Bible, the part about it being spiritually and not bodily is not made clear at all.

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of the world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest.

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

If we were bodily dead, then how could we walk around and live in lust of or flesh as the text suggests? No, the NT claims we are spiritually dead, and need Christ to save us.

is it wrong to assume that you therefore HAVE to be spiritually dead to be able to determine what's right and what's wrong?

The apple did not cause us to become spiritually dead but it was the punishment from God for disobeying Him.

Are you claiming that, say, Hindus were completely unable to determine the difference between right and wrong?

Unfortunately I can't really speak on this matter because I'm not a historical cultural expert (nor am I present day cultural expert). But it is not that they do not know the difference, for the Bible says that by eating the apple we are able to know good and evil.

But that isn't true though, is it? I mean, I may be special in that I live in Norway, but this is arguably the best functioning society in the history of mankind. (I'll be happy to provide empirical evidence to this fact if need be).
Not to mention that this is also one of the most secular societies in history, so surely that cannot be the connection?

Both of those points may be true, but what I said earlier is still applied. Laws were passed down generation by generations, surely you are not claiming that Norway has been devoid of religious perspective for its entirety are you?

What makes you think Adam and Eve died spiritually? What makes you think all Christians believe everyone is dead spiritually?

Read above

What you find absurd or not has no bearing on the debate. The Genesis story suggests that eternal life is dependent on the Tree of Life and Gods decision to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden is what eventuated with their death. Had God been more forthcoming with his intentions if Adam and Eve ate the fruit then perhaps the story could have gone differently.

I'm sorry, what do you mean more forthcoming about his intentions? God said not to eat the fruit, there was only one thing they could not do and it would bring death if they disobeyed Him. He outlined this clearly, and they still rebelled.

Nonetheless, I don't think we can assume Satan knew what God would do if Adam and Eve ate the fruit and he appeared to know that the fruit would not kill them directly so his suggestion may well have been in earnest.

So you're allowed to assume but I'm not allowed to find things absurd?
And I don't see where you are coming from with that thought, Satan knew that if they ate the fruit they would be disobeying God. Satan is no naive puppy, he knows the punishment of sin which is death.

That is of course presuming a God has anything to do with the Abrahamic religions. None the less I think it is a stretch to base the common laws found in western society on the Abrahamic religions.

Didn't the Catholic Church rule most of Europe for over 1000 years, I think it would be hard to erase that kind of influence in a few centuries.

Basically the governments in Western civilization has largely discarded religious input.

They've discarded the laws they don't see fit anymore. I would agree with that.

Not everyone is quite as ignorant as you portray them.

No, not everyone.

If you were to suppose this, you would first have to show that we originally had a connection with God or a connection with God could be achieved.

I don't think this can be answered over the internet.

Also, what is so bad about lust and jealousy? Why would they result in a "messed up society"?

Again this isn't something that can be answered over the internet, I can't pull out a article that suggests lustful people are more likely to kill than not.

The answers to these last two questions have to be seen in real life. To the first questions, many people are touched by God and you have to feel that presence in order to believe it. And to the second question, well if you don't believe that lust and jealousy will ruin a society already then theres nothing I can say to make you believe otherwise.

 

[Koldo]

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of the world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest.

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

You are making a leap here.

For a first, there is no mention of spiritual death in your quotes.
From what i am reading, it seems to be the case the writter was using figure of speech.

Second, the writter was making no clear refence to Adam and Eve in this.

And third, Ephesians doesn't make part of the OT, and its autorship is completely is disputed.

I'm sorry, what do you mean more forthcoming about his intentions? God said not to eat the fruit, there was only one thing they could not do and it would bring death if they disobeyed Him. He outlined this clearly, and they still rebelled.

In fact, God distorted the truth. It was not the fruit that would bring them death, it was God who wouldn't let them live forever after they eat the fruit.
It can be said that God tried to deceive Adam.

So you're allowed to assume but I'm not allowed to find things absurd?
And I don't see where you are coming from with that thought, Satan knew that if they ate the fruit they would be disobeying God. Satan is no naive puppy, he knows the punishment of sin which is death.

Funny that you mention it. How exactly do you know what Satan knew by then?

 

[fahrenheit]

You are making a leap here.
For a first, there is no mention of spiritual death in your quotes.

And what other type of death is it? If we were dead (dead dead, body in the ground, dirt up to our ears) how could we walk around. How could we commit lust if we were ten feet under.

From what i am reading, it seems to be the case the writter was using figure of speech.

Come on man, if you're going to ignore my interpretations then explaining your own is just bad taste.

Second, the writter was making no clear refence to Adam and Eve in this.

Does he need to?

In fact, God distorted the truth. It was not the fruit that would bring them death, it was God who wouldn't let them live forever after they eat the fruit.
It can be said that God tried to deceive Adam.

Now thats a stretch, God says not to eat the fruit or Adam will die. Adam eats the fruit, gets banished from paradise for disobeying God, and Adam dies. And you call God in the wrong?

Let me try an example. You have a young child whom you don't want to eat candy before dinner, you say to that child do not eat any candy or else you will go on a timeout (or can't watch TV or whatever punishment). Now the candy itself does not cause the punishment, its the act of rebellion and not listening to you that is punished. Are you at fault for your child eating the candy?

Funny that you mention it. How exactly do you know what Satan knew by then?

I don't, but to claim he was naive about the consequences and was earnestly looking for mans best interest is just ignorant. If we can assume he was an Angel, who has fallen from grace, how is it sensible to think he had no idea what would happen.

 

[PolyHedral]

Now thats a stretch, God says not to eat the fruit or Adam will die. Adam eats the fruit, gets banished from paradise for disobeying God, and Adam dies. And you call God in the wrong?

Well, yes. He killed Adam, effectively. His own rules class that as "wrong," and it's ludicrously disproportionate anyway.

Let me try an example. You have a young child whom you don't want to eat candy before dinner, you say to that child do not eat any candy or else you will go on a timeout (or can't watch TV or whatever punishment). Now the candy itself does not cause the punishment, its the act of rebellion and not listening to you that is punished. Are you at fault for your child eating the candy?

Allow to improve your example: you tell your child not to eat the candy before dinner, or you will beat them. When they do, you are entirely responsible for beating them.

 

[filthy tugboat]

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of the world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest.

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

If we were bodily dead, then how could we walk around and live in lust of or flesh as the text suggests? No, the NT claims we are spiritually dead, and need Christ to save us.

We are not bodily dead and I am not aware that one can be spiritually alive or dead. Also, the NT is not necessarily linked to the Genesis account, even though it claims to be. Keep it on topic please.

The apple did not cause us to become spiritually dead but it was the punishment from God for disobeying Him.

Can we be spiritually dead? Can we be spiritually alive? What does it mean to be either of those things?

I'm sorry, what do you mean more forthcoming about his intentions? God said not to eat the fruit, there was only one thing they could not do and it would bring death if they disobeyed Him. He outlined this clearly, and they still rebelled.

His intentions to throw them out of the garden if they had eaten the fruit. Yes, a shame he created people so naive that the moment somebody told them something they instantly believed it, without question.

So you're allowed to assume but I'm not allowed to find things absurd?

I said we shouldn't assume. You are allowed to find things absurd but what you find absurd is irrelevant to the debate.

And I don't see where you are coming from with that thought, Satan knew that if they ate the fruit they would be disobeying God. Satan is no naive puppy, he knows the punishment of sin which is death.

Fair enough, is there any reason to assume that the snake in the Garden was Satan? I ask this because it doesn't really make sense for it to be. God set a curse on all snakes after he witnessed the actions of this individual, if it were Satan posing as a snake then why would God punish snakes for it? The more likely option is that it really was a snake and not Satan and presuming what this snake does or does not know would be a bit forward.

Didn't the Catholic Church rule most of Europe for over 1000 years, I think it would be hard to erase that kind of influence in a few centuries.

Yes and the influence has not been removed however the common laws amongst western civilization are noticeably against that of the Abrahamic religions. The big ones being Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, the Abolishment of Slavery.

They've discarded the laws they don't see fit anymore. I would agree with that.

Those would be the major fundamental freedoms we all now enjoy.

I don't think this can be answered over the internet.

Again this isn't something that can be answered over the internet, I can't pull out a article that suggests lustful people are more likely to kill than not.

The answers to these last two questions have to be seen in real life. To the first questions, many people are touched by God and you have to feel that presence in order to believe it. And to the second question, well if you don't believe that lust and jealousy will ruin a society already then theres nothing I can say to make you believe otherwise.

If you cannot support your claims on this forum then don't make claims on this forum.