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The problem of freewill

Semper.Fidelis

New Member
Usually we think Adam fell into sin because he was created with freewill...really? I mean frewill means the capacity to choose (unforced by anyone) between two things whose meaning you know...you can not choose beween things that are unknown off, right? But in Adam's case that's exactly what happened...he didn't know what sin is, what evil is so he's not accountable for his actions. I'll give you an example: suppose you have a three years old who's playing with the matches and you expect from him to exercise his freewill in order to quite playing otherwise he can burn the house. But the problem is this: if he doesn't know what fire is, what danger is how can he exercise his freewill and make a choice? You understand my point? In my opinion Adam was "forced" to make a choice not knoing what sin was and in this case we can not talk about frewill.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Usually we think Adam fell into sin because he was created with freewill...really? I mean frewill means the capacity to choose (unforced by anyone) between two things whose meaning you know...you can not choose beween things that are unknown off, right? But in Adam's case that's exactly what happened...he didn't know what sin is, what evil is so he's not accountable for his actions. I'll give you an example: suppose you have a three years old who's playing with the matches and you expect from him to exercise his freewill in order to quite playing otherwise he can burn the house. But the problem is this: if he doesn't know what fire is, what danger is how can he exercise his freewill and make a choice? You understand my point? In my opinion Adam was "forced" to make a choice not knoing what sin was and in this case we can not talk about frewill.
This should be move to a discussion thread or debate thread but, welcome. My problem is that both your examples are exercises of free will a choice was made based on knowledge available. The only issue would be punishment for the choice. I would expect the child to not be punished but taught. If Adam truly didn't know then he shouldn't be punished either but in my bible he was aware of what he was doing.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I mean frewill means the capacity to choose (unforced by anyone) between two things whose meaning you know...you can not choose beween things that are unknown off, right?
Why not?

Give me two opaque and sealed containers, one marked Contains Flupgreted and the other marked Contains Hejelocatar, and I am perfectly capable of choosing one over the other. There is a difference between free choice and informed choice. So, for example, you freely choose to believe that someone named Adam did something that is accurately recorded in Genesis.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Usually we think Adam fell into sin because he was created with freewill...really? I mean frewill means the capacity to choose (unforced by anyone) between two things whose meaning you know...you can not choose beween things that are unknown off, right? But in Adam's case that's exactly what happened...he didn't know what sin is, what evil is so he's not accountable for his actions. I'll give you an example: suppose you have a three years old who's playing with the matches and you expect from him to exercise his freewill in order to quite playing otherwise he can burn the house. But the problem is this: if he doesn't know what fire is, what danger is how can he exercise his freewill and make a choice? You understand my point? In my opinion Adam was "forced" to make a choice not knoing what sin was and in this case we can not talk about frewill.
Free will in the context of Adam and Eve was connected to a departure from natural instinct about 6000 years ago. This time scale coordinates with the first sustained civilizations and the invention of written language. The 6000 year time scale, of the latter two, is science dated. The first is bible dated.

If you were a natural animal, your instincts will help you make choices. The Panda Bear eats only Eucalyptus leaves. so it never has to make a choice in terms of what to eat for dinner. The Lion eats the easy game put in front of its by chance or nature.

Adam and Eve begin in paradise, as two natural human animals, with natural human instinct. Paradise is not just a pretty place, but also a place where your needs are met, proactively via integrated ecosystems and instinct. Paradise is blissful since you are integrated with nature. It likely going to a nice resort where the staff is on top of your needs. They will bring you your favorite drink, proactively, without you having to ask. Or is like a small child who is in the care of caring parents, who anticipate for them.

When Adan and Eve willfully chose to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, their instinct would be lost, since the ability to make free choices will undermine the resort staff; instincts, who are hospitality experts. When the small child reaches the terrible twos it is hard to maintain their little paradise, since he/she undermines.

This symbolized of fall from paradise, due to free will, is about a new type of human attitude due to a new set of human needs, that forms connected to civilization. Unlike natural man where instincts worked perfectly, civilization is an unnatural world where decisions need to be willfully made, since instincts is only tuned to nature. It is like going home from vacation and the spar treatment, and now you got to deal with all the problems. even making choices that could be the lessor of evils; not optimized.

The symbolism of the tree of knowledge with all its branches, amounts to all those choices you now have to make due to the loss of instinct and paradise. When the Bible claims that Adam and Eve were the first humans, they were not taking about human DNA. The natural human; hunter gatherers in paradise, also had human DNA. Instead is was talking about this new human situation of living, within the unnatural environment of civilization, where instinct could no longer work properly. Once farming appears, you are stuck in place for months at a time.

It also symbolized a second center of consciousness forming; ego, which separated from the natural center; inner self. All animals have an inner self. Only human have an ego. Modern humans no longer have natural instincts. This is symbolized by the tree of life taken away.

Free will is relative to natural instinct, which is repressed, so all our choices are free willed, by default. This is why we tend to weight options and not just act without thought like the natural animal man.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
Usually we think Adam fell into sin because he was created with freewill...really? I mean frewill means the capacity to choose (unforced by anyone) between two things whose meaning you know...you can not choose beween things that are unknown off, right? But in Adam's case that's exactly what happened...he didn't know what sin is, what evil is so he's not accountable for his actions. I'll give you an example: suppose you have a three years old who's playing with the matches and you expect from him to exercise his freewill in order to quite playing otherwise he can burn the house. But the problem is this: if he doesn't know what fire is, what danger is how can he exercise his freewill and make a choice? You understand my point? In my opinion Adam was "forced" to make a choice not knoing what sin was and in this case we can not talk about frewill.
You are right about freewill not being the basis for sin. If it were, Jesus would sin, as well as all the angels.

According to the Bible, Adam cannot be compared to a three year old, and knew what sin is, but deliberately chose to go against his heavenly father, creator, and provider.
Genesis 2:15-17) 15 Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”
(1 Timothy 2:14) . . .Adam was not deceived. . .
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
This should be move to a discussion thread or debate thread but, welcome. My problem is that both your examples are exercises of free will a choice was made based on knowledge available. The only issue would be punishment for the choice. I would expect the child to not be punished but taught. If Adam truly didn't know then he shouldn't be punished either but in my bible he was aware of what he was doing.
Good point.
I'm wondering though, which one of us would fail to discipline a child whom we told not to open the door for anyone, otherwise they would be harmed... and they disobeyed.
I wonder if @Semper.Fidelis would. @Semper.Fidelis?
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
Oops. Didn't realize this was the Introduce Yourself forum. Sorry.
Mods. Please delete my posts, if the thread isn't moved.
 

Whateverist

Active Member
Free will is relative to natural instinct, which is repressed, so all our choices are free willed, by default. This is why we tend to weight options and not just act without thought like the natural animal man.

I think I agree with your mythanalysis. But it makes me wonder are we more free by being freed from instinctive response or when we’re freed from the compulsion to always inhibit the instinctual? I think practicing creative arts requires that we learn to loosen control to become receptive to the gifts of the muse.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Usually we think Adam fell into sin because he was created with freewill...really? I mean frewill means the capacity to choose (unforced by anyone) between two things whose meaning you know...you can not choose beween things that are unknown off, right? But in Adam's case that's exactly what happened...he didn't know what sin is, what evil is so he's not accountable for his actions.
I don't think knowing sin is relevant in this. Adam knew what God had told and he basically rejected God and choose different path, by his freewill. And sin can be understood as to reject God, or to live apart from God.

Also, not knowing something is not a good excuse. If person doesn't know, he should first find out the possible consequences, or accept that he chose something without caring of any consequences.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Usually we think Adam fell into sin because he was created with freewill...really? I mean frewill means the capacity to choose (unforced by anyone) between two things whose meaning you know...you can not choose beween things that are unknown off, right? But in Adam's case that's exactly what happened...he didn't know what sin is, what evil is so he's not accountable for his actions. I'll give you an example: suppose you have a three years old who's playing with the matches and you expect from him to exercise his freewill in order to quite playing otherwise he can burn the house. But the problem is this: if he doesn't know what fire is, what danger is how can he exercise his freewill and make a choice? You understand my point? In my opinion Adam was "forced" to make a choice not knoing what sin was and in this case we can not talk about frewill.
Honestly I think it's an allegory meant to explain the origin of evil.
Evil can be a consequence of disobedience and misconduct; in many cases it's not something willful.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Usually we think Adam fell into sin because he was created with freewill...really? I mean frewill means the capacity to choose (unforced by anyone) between two things whose meaning you know...you can not choose beween things that are unknown off, right? But in Adam's case that's exactly what happened...he didn't know what sin is, what evil is so he's not accountable for his actions. I'll give you an example: suppose you have a three years old who's playing with the matches and you expect from him to exercise his freewill in order to quite playing otherwise he can burn the house. But the problem is this: if he doesn't know what fire is, what danger is how can he exercise his freewill and make a choice? You understand my point? In my opinion Adam was "forced" to make a choice not knoing what sin was and in this case we can not talk about frewill.
Free will has the word free in it. Free from what? Free will is free from the determinism of natural instinct. Before the fall Adam was still under instinct in paradise, and his choices were predetermined; innocent. God gave Adam an option; freedom to choose apart from the known determinism of instinct. Knowledge of good and evil allows one to make one of two choices, and not have to depend on instinct to choose for you.

Law and knowledge of Good and Evil are like a two sided coin. It is one thing, but has two sides. If we know one side, we also know the other side, since it is implied. If the coin falls on heads, tails is hidden from view. We know it is there even if we cannot see it.

A physics analogy is a magnet, which has a north and south pole. Ironically, there is no such thing as a magnetic monopole. Neither single pole can exists by itself. They only appear in the context of each other; two sided coin. There is no good, without a balancing evil and vice versa. Just Good and just evil monopoles do not exist.

So when God made the law for Adam to not to choose, the tree of knowledge, he gave Adam a two sided coin. Even though Adam could only see one side at a time; do not eat, the other hidden side, was also an implied option; one connected coin.

Because we use law of good and evil, if we define any good, a connected evil is implied. The reverse is also true. As humans did evil to each other; war, good was hidden, but implied and finally appears; diplomacy. But even your ideal of good; heads, has a tail side that is often hidden; worse case scenario. There are dark clouds with silver linings; two sided coin that allows for free will beyond instinctive determinism.
 

Dawah

Member
Usually we think Adam fell into sin because he was created with freewill...really? I mean frewill means the capacity to choose (unforced by anyone) between two things whose meaning you know...you can not choose beween things that are unknown off, right? But in Adam's case that's exactly what happened...he didn't know what sin is, what evil is so he's not accountable for his actions. I'll give you an example: suppose you have a three years old who's playing with the matches and you expect from him to exercise his freewill in order to quite playing otherwise he can burn the house. But the problem is this: if he doesn't know what fire is, what danger is how can he exercise his freewill and make a choice? You understand my point? In my opinion Adam was "forced" to make a choice not knoing what sin was and in this case we can not talk about frewill.

Adam knew enough. God Allah told him and forbid him to eat from that tree. But he listened to whispers of satan and ate from the tree, so he became one of the losers, the disobedient ones against Allah.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Adam and Eve begin in paradise, as two natural human animals, with natural human instinct.
The natural instinct of the human animal is to be omnivorous, meaning we survive by adapting to eating a wide array of food choices, from spiders, to meat, to leaves, to roots, etc. We typically choose to not eat certain things because they sickened us at some point, and we taught others to avoid those items as foods.
Paradise is blissful since you are integrated with nature.
Will ignorance is bliss, anywhere there are natural predators that want to kill and eat you, means most animals have to keep one eye out for their safety. Being integrated with nature means you are both predator and prey.
It likely going to a nice resort where the staff is on top of your needs. They will bring you your favorite drink, proactively, without you having to ask. Or is like a small child who is in the care of caring parents, who anticipate for them.
Hunter gatherers, while very much part of the ecosystem, had to forage for their own food. It wasn't brought to them. So even in the story of Eden, you see Adam and Eve having to pick their own food as well. You could say they were hunter gatherers as well, couldn't you?
When Adan and Eve willfully chose to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, their instinct would be lost, since the ability to make free choices will undermine the resort staff; instincts, who are hospitality experts.
As mentioned above, human instinct is to not be selective in diet. We survive by eating anything and everything that doesn't kill us or make us sick. And the process of learning that is through trial and error, which then gets passed down through generations until it becomes an instinct. It had to be learned somewhere along the line first, and then passed down until it becomes engrained in the species.
Unlike natural man where instincts worked perfectly, civilization is an unnatural world where decisions need to be willfully made, since instincts is only tuned to nature.
Clearly it did not work perfectly, even in the story. If we were giving free will, and then told to not reason for ourselves, that is going against how we were designed.

When the Bible claims that Adam and Eve were the first humans, they were not taking about human DNA. The natural human; hunter gatherers in paradise, also had human DNA. Instead is was talking about this new human situation of living, within the unnatural environment of civilization, where instinct could no longer work properly. Once farming appears, you are stuck in place for months at a time.
I don't disagree there is something lost in the creation of civilizations, but there is also something gained that allows for greater rewards of being a human, then what is found in simple subsistence living. I don't think watching your mother getting eaten by a jaguar or dragged off by a lion creates a good environment for contemplating the wonders and beauties of life.
It also symbolized a second center of consciousness forming; ego, which separated from the natural center; inner self. All animals have an inner self. Only human have an ego. Modern humans no longer have natural instincts. This is symbolized by the tree of life taken away.
I disagree that we no longer have natural instincts. What is true though is that overreliance on the egoic self causes a disconnect from that aspect of ourselves we are born with.
Free will is relative to natural instinct, which is repressed, so all our choices are free willed, by default. This is why we tend to weight options and not just act without thought like the natural animal man.
I wouldn't say the natural man acts without thought. It's just that the thoughts are less clouded by overly active thoughts. Flow states is what comes to mind.
 

Mr. Ed

Member
I agree freewill causes chaos. The the other option of freewill would be animalistic. Animal DNA makes dogs, cats and monkeys behavior by instinct rather than freewill
 

chinu

chinu
Usually we think Adam fell into sin because he was created with freewill...really? I mean frewill means the capacity to choose (unforced by anyone) between two things whose meaning you know...you can not choose beween things that are unknown off, right? But in Adam's case that's exactly what happened...he didn't know what sin is, what evil is so he's not accountable for his actions. I'll give you an example: suppose you have a three years old who's playing with the matches and you expect from him to exercise his freewill in order to quite playing otherwise he can burn the house. But the problem is this: if he doesn't know what fire is, what danger is how can he exercise his freewill and make a choice? You understand my point? In my opinion Adam was "forced" to make a choice not knoing what sin was and in this case we can not talk about frewill.
In the first place -- we all were one with God (Oneness). That oneness has its own free-will.
In the second place -- we aparted from God. Now, God has its own free-will and we all have our own free-will.

We aparted from God was the first-sin that we did that time using our free-will.
Chain of sins started from this first-sin.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I agree freewill causes chaos. The the other option of freewill would be animalistic. Animal DNA makes dogs, cats and monkeys behavior by instinct rather than freewill
Are you sure that animals don't have freewill? Ever ask a cat to come sit on your lap?
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member
Usually we think Adam fell into sin because he was created with freewill...really? I mean frewill means the capacity to choose (unforced by anyone) between two things whose meaning you know...you can not choose beween things that are unknown off, right? But in Adam's case that's exactly what happened...he didn't know what sin is, what evil is so he's not accountable for his actions. I'll give you an example: suppose you have a three years old who's playing with the matches and you expect from him to exercise his freewill in order to quite playing otherwise he can burn the house. But the problem is this: if he doesn't know what fire is, what danger is how can he exercise his freewill and make a choice? You understand my point? In my opinion Adam was "forced" to make a choice not knoing what sin was and in this case we can not talk about frewill.
There was no sin when Adam took the bite of the apple, that came after. Adam's freewill was whether to choose to do what God told him to do or not. Just like a child with matches, they don't need to know what fire is but they use their freewill to either obey or disobey their parent.
 
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