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The problem with infidelity?

MD

qualiaphile
I love that any time someone disagrees with you, it's because they are of inferior or missing intellect. That's just precious.

ETA: or is it just me that you think is stupid? Hmmmmm . . . .

I love that you cannot put up a good argument and tend to always think you're right, when you're not. You also brought my religion into this, when what I'm saying is from my extensive background in the biological sciences.

And then you blame the other person. Is your character flaw this prevalent in real life as well?
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
I love that you cannot put up a good argument and tend to always think you're right, when you're not. You also brought my religion into this, when what I'm saying is from my extensive background in the biological sciences.

And then you blame the other person. Is your character flaw this prevalent in real life as well?
Perhaps. I trust you to let me know what all my character flaws are. :)
 

MD

qualiaphile
Perhaps. I trust you to let me know what all my character flaws are. :)

You're the one who started this with a personal attack by saying my statements are religiously influenced, rather than the fact that they are scientific.

Now you're playing the victim? That's an old game
 
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Marisa

Well-Known Member
You're the one who started this with a personal attack by saying my statements are religiously influenced, rather than the fact that they were scientific.

Now you're playing the victim? That's an old game
Whatever. Factually, you're wrong. You didn't get pissed until I questioned where your moralizing was coming from. You came out the gate in your very first response to me saying that my biological knowledge was poor. And it went downhill from there. You know, I'm perfectly happy to accept my part in the digression of things. I expect the same from you. We could have had a nice conversation and might eventually have gotten around to discovering that at the end of the day, we agree more than we disagree and perhaps we're even saying similar things from a different perspective. But you'd much rather call me stupid. So, whatever. Just know that it's not "playing the victim". It's just not reacting well to being slammed up against a wall for having the unmitigated gall of seeming to disagree with you. :D
 

MD

qualiaphile
Whatever. Factually, you're wrong. You didn't get pissed until I questioned where your moralizing was coming from. You came out the gate in your very first response to me saying that my biological knowledge was poor. And it went downhill from there. You know, I'm perfectly happy to accept my part in the digression of things. I expect the same from you. We could have had a nice conversation and might eventually have gotten around to discovering that at the end of the day, we agree more than we disagree and perhaps we're even saying similar things from a different perspective. But you'd much rather call me stupid. So, whatever. Just know that it's not "playing the victim". It's just not reacting well to being slammed up against a wall for having the unmitigated gall of seeming to disagree with you. :D

Factually I'm wrong, when I clearly showed that YOU are wrong. You're the one who called in my judgement as being religiously biased, even though it is scientifically based. Your opinion is not at all scientifically based, but somehow you're right? What a joke. Your knowledge IS poor, you're making claims on the purpose of biological sex based on bonobos? How the hell does that make your point in any way valid? It makes your point completely wrong and invalid. And I only said that after you wrongly assumed I had a religious angle to this. Not all arguments which you deem as wrong are religious based, got it?

Slammed against the wall? Oh my more victim playing. What are you going to say next? This is an online forum miss, and this is how people argue. Either you get used to it, or run away. This isn't your social club where you get to think you're the only one who's right.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Factually I'm wrong, when I clearly showed that YOU are wrong. You're the one who called in my judgement as being religiously biased, even though it is scientifically based. Your opinion is not at all scientifically based, but somehow you're right? What a joke. Your knowledge IS poor, you're making claims on the purpose of biological sex based on bonobos? How the hell does that make your point in any way valid? It makes your point completely wrong and invalid. And I only said that after you wrongly assumed I had a religious angle to this. Not all arguments which you deem as wrong are religious based, got it?

Slammed against the wall? Oh my more victim playing. What are you going to say next? This is an online forum miss, and this is how people argue. Either you get used to it, or run away. This isn't your social club where you get to think you're the only one who's right.
What on earth are you babbling about?
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
The ‘purpose’ of biological sex has no relevance to the topic of infidelity, frankly. Relationships, especially ones that have a sexual component, are often complicated. People’s reasons for why they cheat vary. Not everyone who cheats is dissatisfied with their relationship in a sexual way, so not sure why this thread has gone into a diatribe about the purpose of biological sex.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
The ‘purpose’ of biological sex has no relevance to the topic of infidelity, frankly. Relationships, especially ones that have a sexual component, are often complicated. People’s reasons for why they cheat vary. Not everyone who cheats is dissatisfied with their relationship in a sexual way, so not sure why this thread has gone into a diatribe about the purpose of biological sex.
That's very true. I've seen it happen in military families after a deployment when the couple was unable to reintegrate.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
In a patriarchal society, it's inheritance. When a woman has a baby there is no question of who the mother is. Not so with the father.

Yes. And we see this appear repeatedly throughout history. Lex Iulia de Adulteriis Coercendis, the Augustus moral legislation that prohibited adultery, made it clear that adultery was about the behavior of married women and the rights of their legally recognized guardians, namely fathers (for married daughters) and husbands:

By the Julian law, if a husband kept his wife after an act of adultery was known to him, and let the adulterer off, he was guilty of the offence of lenocinium. The husband or father in whose power the adulteress was, had sixty days allowed for commencing proceedings against the wife, after which time any other person might prosecute (Tacit. Ann. II.85). A woman convicted of adultery was mulcted in half of her dos and the third part of her property (bona), and banished (relegata) to some miserable island, such as Seriphos, for instance. The adulterer was mulcted in half his property, and banished in like manner, but not to the same island as the woman. The adulterer and adulteress were subjected also to civil incapacities; but this law did not inflict the punishment of death on either party; and in those instances under the emperors in which death was inflicted, it must be considered as an extraordinary punishment, and beyond the provisions of the Julian law (Tacit. Ann. II.50, Ann. III.24; J. Lips., Excurs. ad Tacit. Ann. IV.42; Noodt, Op. Omn. I.286, &c.). But by a constitution of Constantine (Cod. IX.30, if it is genuine), the offence in the adulterer was made capital. By the legislation of Justinian (Nov. 134 c10), the law of Constantine was probably only confirmed; but the adulteress was put into a convent, after being first whipped. If her husband did not take her out in two years, she was compelled to assume the habit, and to spend the rest of her life in the convent.

The Julian law permitted the father (both adoptive and natural) to kill the adulterer and adulteress in certain cases, as to which there were several nice distinctions established by the law. If the father killed only one of the parties, he brought himself within the penalties of
the Cornelian law De Sicariis. The husband might kill persons of a certain class, described in the law, whom he caught in the act of adultery with his wife; but he could not kill his wife. The husband, by the fifth chapter of the Julian law, could detain for twenty hours the adulterer whom he had caught in the act, for the purpose of calling in witnesses to prove the adultery. If the wife was divorced for adultery, the husband was intitled to retain part of the dos (Ulp. Frag. VI.12). The authorities for the Lex Julia de Adulteriis, but ancient and modern, are collected by Rein, Das Criminalrecht der Römer, 1844.

The Romans were also concerned with stuprum, prohibited acts that involved unmarried women (never married and widows) as well as freeborn (perhaps minor) males. This is an offense against honor, and the women in question is not free to consent to a violation (nor I think is a freeborn male). At least one Roman jurist, in addressing this offense, makes it clear that assailants and failed guardians are the ones punished for the transgression (and by death which is severe). He also wrote that "It has been decided that adultery cannot be committed with women who have charge of any business or shop." The latter might be a reference to prostitution in full, but it may also indicate that this position was somewhat extraordinary and freed such women from some of the traditional restraints on their behavior.

What does seem clear is that the concern for prohibiting adultery is directly tied to paternity concerns. First, the law did not prohibit married men from intercourse with women, and whether or not that was a crime depended on the woman's social status. By contrast, women did not enjoy the right to sexual access with slaves, if they were married. Note also that the father had power over the daughter, but the husband did not enjoy a similar level of control (i.e., he did not retain the power to kill her). We should also note that Roman moralists' concern with "moral decline," real or imagined, was what prompted the Augustus reforms (which included compulsory marriage, more or less) and were tied to gender norms:

Whatever the effects of Augustus' family laws, they demonstrate a perception on the part of Augustus and his contemporaries of a serious moral decline that needed to be remedied. But had the Roman family really declined in the final century of the Republic--that is, the period from 146 BCE to 49 BCE--or was the decline a figment of Augustus' ideological imagination? In fact, the historical reality of the decline is very hard to demonstrate. The problem for us historians is one of accurate sources. The Romans emerged into the full light of history only in 200 BCE, at the time the first Roman historian wrote; for the period before 200 BCE we have virtually no contemporary written evidence. By 200 BCE, Rome was already the ruler of Italy and a world power. The earliest contemporary Latin writings date from the years immediately after the Second Punic War and just before the supposed moral decline; these texts date from 200-150 BCE and take the form of comic plays by Plautus and Terence and prose treatises by Cato.

What is interesting about these earliest Latin authors is that they are already deploring the moral decline of their own time. The stern, self-righteous moralist Cato, writing in the decades before his death, in 149 BCE, was already decrying independently wealthy women; he complained of wives who were rich enough to loan money to their husbands and then hounded them to repay when they became unhappy. A standard character type in the comedies of Plautus, written not long after 200 BCE, was the loose-living son who was smitten with love, often for a prostitute. In the plays--ancient versions of sitcoms-- there is a debate about whether fathers should be strict or indulgent toward the moral failings of their sons--usually they were indulgent in the end, just as in modern sitcoms. In fact, sons in these plays are never beaten for their disobedience, as slaves are. Plautus' errant sons are not a fictitious type invented by his imagination but are characters that had their counterparts in reality. The historian Polybius, who lived in Rome around 160-150 BCE , described the lifestyle of his senatorial friend, Scipio Aemilianus. According to Polybius, Scipio was an unusual youth precisely because he did not indulge in the fast living of his peers.

In short, the earliest Latin authors were already writing of the breakdown of the good, orderly family in which the paterfamilias maintained authority over his wife and children. If there was ever a better age before the decline, it must have been in the prehistoric era. An alternative interpretation--one that I lean toward--is that the golden age before the moral decline never existed in reality but was a later invention by Roman authors who certainly had no reliable historical evidence for moral trends. That is to say, the narrative of moral decline of the family was based on a historical mirage of a better past, and it was no more than a mirage. It is fascinating that one of Plautus' comic characters, an unusually introspective father, is made to wonder out loud whether the sons of his day really are worse behaved or whether fathers just like to imagine that in their own youth they were more obedient and morally virtuous.

The reforms that were ultimately adopted were not those favored by egalitarian Romans, like the Stoic Musonius:

Musonius’ opposition to luxurious living extended to his views about sex. He thought that men who live luxuriously desire a wide variety of sexual experiences, both legitimate and illegitimate, with both women and men. He remarked that sometimes licentious men pursue a series of male sex-partners. Sometimes they grow dissatisfied with available male sex-partners and choose to pursue those who are hard to get. Musonius condemned all such recreational sex acts. He insisted that only those sex acts aimed at procreation within marriage are right. He decried adultery as unlawful and illegitimate. He judged homosexual relationships as an outrage contrary to nature. He argued that anyone overcome by shameful pleasure is base in his lack of self-control, and so blamed the man (married or unmarried) who has sex with his own female slave as much as the woman (married or unmarried) who has sex with her male slave.

He had his weird quasi-religious reasons for this, but it was definitely not the normal patriarchal justification:

In reply to this I have just one thing to say: if it seems neither shameful nor out of place for a master to have relations with his own slave, particularly if she happens to be unmarried, let him consider how he would like it if his wife had relations with a male slave. Would it not seem completely intolerable not only if the woman who [89] had a lawful husband had relations with a slave, but even if a woman without a husband should have? And yet surely one will not expect men to be less moral than women, nor less capable of disciplining their desires, thereby revealing the stronger in judgment inferior to the weaker, the rulers to the ruled. In fact, it behooves men to be much better if they expect to be superior to women, for surely if they appear to be less self-controlled they will also be baser characters. What need is there to say that it is an act of licentiousness and nothing less for a master to have relations with a slave? Everyone knows that.

What he does not do is disturb the law of adultery itself, nor the reasons for it. He just added an additional reason for male restraint in these "monogamous" marriages, being that the male householder had to exemplify self-mastery if he was to exercise authority over the women in his household. This very Stoic argument he provides is of course ridiculous: A master having sex with a female slave could not disturb the property progeny line the way that a female having sex with male slave could disturb the line.

Greeks had similar attitudes, at least according to ancient historians. We know from Plutarch that a law was attributed to Solon, with the former judging it unfair or at least absurd:

But in general Solon's laws concerning women seem very absurd. For instance, he permitted an adulterer caught in the act to be killed; but if a man committed rape upon a free woman, he was merely to be fined a hundred drachmas; and if he gained his end by persuasion, twenty drachmas, unless it were with one of those who sell themselves openly, meaning of course the courtesans. For these go openly to those who offer them their price. [2] Still further, no man is allowed to sell a daughter or a sister, unless he find that she is no longer a virgin. But to punish the same offence now severely and inexorably, and now mildly and pleasantly, making the penalty a slight fine, is unreasonable; unless money was scarce in the city at that time, and the difficulty of procuring it made these monetary punishments heavy.

The same law attributed to Solon allowed for some type of excommunication for the woman being caught in adultery, while the man was to be executed (I think there is some leniency available as well, in terms of alternative financial contributions to avoid punishment). But the point is that the honor being protected here is clearly related to a property (and lineage) interest.

There is substantial evidence that the gender imbalance is a consequence of agriculture. More specifically, that the surplus of goods, division of labor, and the emergence of property rights, was tied to the first agricultural revolution, which minimized the importance of women’s labor, or at least enabled men to control goods in ways that they had been unable to in a foraging economy. Particularly plow-dependent societies.

Naturally, the industrial and post-industrial economies of today have very different concerns. We can ascertain paternity with DNA testing and in any event we have largely abolished the strict inheritance laws from the agricultural era. We have growing female labor participation rates, and women have a much larger role in governance as well. Marriage does not serve the same ends that it once did, and is now a much more egalitarian institution. As egalitarianism increased, the prosecution of adultery waned.

So I guess what does that all say about adultery? We do not live in cultures that are legally patriarchal these days (with some notable exceptions outside of the West). Neither women nor children are ruled over by the pater familias, religion is largely a private affair and subject to one’s conscience and there is no slave class nor an aristocratic one. Marriage serves only capitalist and post-capitalist functions, as the case may be. Like all good rational agents that appear in supply and demand models, people are largely free to shape the terms of their personal relationships and the government’s ability to regulate adultery is questionable. If it is a transgression, it is a private one for the parties involved.

I actually expect that infidelity will become less important at the personal level as time passes. We may never eliminate jealousy or a desire for sexual exclusivity altogether, but if it is no longer wedded to our system of property rights and resource allocation it will not have much significance socially, and as its social importance wanes so too will its importance to individual couples. As has been the case with religion.


 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Do you disagree much about issues, politics, how to spend money, where to eat, who cleans etc?

Nope, because we discussed all that in depth before we got married. That is, we discussed how to spend money, where to eat, etc. We disagree sometimes on politics but that's not a deal killer to either of us.

We knew going into it that we agreed on "the biggies." The biggies for us, that is. I think that's important, but often overlooked when one or both parties are focused on "the passion of the moment."
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Infidelity is wrong on a biological level for 2 reasons. First of all biologically speaking, sex is for procreation.

So based on that, if infidelity was prominent:

a) The male does not know if the child is his if the woman he's with committed infidelity. Thus he wouldn't want to share resources with a woman if he doesn't know the child is his or someone elses
b) The female does not have a male to help her raise the child if the man is sleeping around and/or her child will have to compete with his other children for resources

Western society has destroyed the concept of fidelity now, but it's not the first. Other societies concept of fidelity died a long time ago, and have adapted accordingly. In Jamaican villages for example many children's male caregivers are the mothers brother, rather than the biological father. This is because the brother knows that the child shares some genes with him while the father does not. Religions have created entire moral codes to deal with polygamy, which I view as a form of infidelity.

How in the world does Polygamy even fall under infidelity?

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Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Infidelity is wrong on a biological level for 2 reasons. First of all biologically speaking, sex is for procreation.

Then your biological knowledge is poor. Pleasure is an after effect of sex. Sex is primarily for procreation, anyone with grade school knowledge in the sciences knows this. Dolphins and bonobos might engage in sex for fun, but if sex really wasn't only for procreation we would have evolved valves to prevent pregnancy.
Exactly- grade school knowledge. Any courses about this subject beyond that level would show it's far more complex than just "sex is for procreation".

For humans, sex plays a multitude of roles with procreation and social bonding being among the most important. Types of animals where they go into mating season and have sex a few times in a single week and never see each other again- that's where one can more correctly say simply that sex is for procreation. For social animals that hide ovulation and where orgasms trigger oxytocin releases and other things, it's more than just that. Those aren't just accidents that happen to go along with procreation- it's an activity that plays multiple key roles for which society builds itself around.

So based on that, if infidelity was prominent:

a) The male does not know if the child is his if the woman he's with committed infidelity. Thus he wouldn't want to share resources with a woman if he doesn't know the child is his or someone elses
b) The female does not have a male to help her raise the child if the man is sleeping around and/or her child will have to compete with his other children for resources

Western society has destroyed the concept of fidelity now, but it's not the first. Other societies concept of fidelity died a long time ago, and have adapted accordingly. In Jamaican villages for example many children's male caregivers are the mothers brother, rather than the biological father. This is because the brother knows that the child shares some genes with him while the father does not. Religions have created entire moral codes to deal with polygamy, which I view as a form of infidelity.
Many matrilineal/matrilocal societies, some of the oldest hunter/gatherer types, had social structures as you describe- where uncles take a larger role in parenting than fathers. Throughout a person's lifetime, a person in such a society will often have multiple sex partners and infidelity is often not some critical sin. In some of them it's normal for the guy to move in with the woman's family and they're more monogamous, and in other societies it's more normal for the couple to separate eventually and they'll likely have other partners at a later time.

With the rise of patrlineal societies across much of the world where it's critical to know that the children are indeed of the father, we start to see more societal rules built around keeping women from meeting with men other than family members and husbands, up to the extreme side of keeping them covered head to toe and/or in the house at all times.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
....


Many matrilineal/matrilocal societies, some of the oldest hunter/gatherer types, had social structures as you describe- where uncles take a larger role in parenting than fathers. Throughout a person's lifetime, a person in such a society will often have multiple sex partners and infidelity is often not some critical sin. In some of them it's normal for the guy to move in with the woman's family and they're more monogamous, and in other societies it's more normal for the couple to separate eventually and they'll likely have other partners at a later time.

With the rise of patrlineal societies across much of the world where it's critical to know that the children are indeed of the father, we start to see more societal rules built around keeping women from meeting with men other than family members and husbands, up to the extreme side of keeping them covered head to toe and/or in the house at all times.

There is one of these matrilineal/matrifocal societies still going in China. They had a show about them a couple of years ago.

All property stays with the mother and her daughters. The children's male influences are the uncles and other males born to the house's women.The fathers stay in their mother's homes, or men's houses, just meeting the women for sex.

They have special festivals, and every girl that is considered old enough for sex, attends the festival and dances with the available men, perhaps finding one to mate with.

They found that the world's patriarchal cultures consider them to be like whores, and because of that, tourists are showing up expecting free sex, and causing problems.

These women have nothing to do with the sex-tourists, so real whores have moved in around them to service the men. A real problem, and a real tragedy, as this ancient culture fights to survive.

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