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The purposeful vagueness of scriptures.

idea

Question Everything
This is an interesting expression of a very postmodern idea. This is the idea that the reader brings meaning to a given text, rather than simply finding the meaning that the author imbued into the text when it was written. This type of textual interpretation leads to what I like to call "the death of the author" and it can be used to make any text (from the Bible to the U.S. Constitution) say whatever you want it to. If the reader is permitted to write their own meaning into any given text, then scripture, authorship, and any form of written language no longer has any meaning.

By that logic, I could "interpret" the above post and make it into an argument for destroying all movies and stage performances and replacing them with books. However, I presume you would reject that "interpretation" because that isn't what you (the author) meant when you wrote that message. It is the author who imbues a text with meaning, not the reader.

Communication can be one way, or two ways.

One way communication is limited. Good communicators deeply understand their audience. Without also listening to the audience, the message isn't individual, isn't personalized. One way communication isn't heard, isn't understood, isn't communication - just someone talking to themselves, someone talking about themselves.

Two-way communication includes listening, finding common experiences, two way understanding, with genuine connections at the end.

Sing-a-longs are more fun than just listening. Dinner murder mysteries with audience participation.

Video games - interactive - are more popular than books. Two-way. Audience invited in, audience listened to. By all the people, for the people - loving selfless celebration and connection rather than one way - by the pope for the pope, by the dictator for the dictator, by the author, by god.

god isn't God if not filled with love and two-way connection. god isn't God who doesn't listen, who doesn't personalize and individually craft the message to each individual.

No middle men.
No universal dogmas.
No borrowed light.

Personal individually tailored messages for all.
 

vijeno

Active Member
At issue is not what one can rationally speculate but what one can reasonable claim -- especially when the claim is being made for all members of a class.

Furthermore, what we can "rationally speculate" about today's utterances says exceedingly little about what was "likely" in the past.

Finally, perhaps you could tell us what warrants being deemed "rational speculation."

Sure, let's unpack the argument. I think there are two parts: Historical analogy, and its application.

Historical analogy

1. (At least) within historical timeframes (ie, since we had writing), human genes did not change a lot.
2. If genes do not change, then human behaviour remains roughly the same (in basic biological, psychological and social regards).
3. The bible was written within the historical timeframe.
4. Therefore, people in biblical times behaved basically the same as they do today.

Of course, our behaviour has changed insofar as we use computers, cellphones, and A/Cs. But it has not changed insofar as we want sex, need relationships, tend to form tribes and nations, and so on. The uttering/writing of prophecies seems to me to fall into the latter category.

I don't really see any good point against that. The only reason why people might initially oppose it, is because it is so simple and obvious. When you open the bible, you presuppose that it's talking about human beings who eat, sleep, procreate, love, cheat on each other, etc. The thought that they might be wildly different in basic biological and social regards, simply never occurs.

Application

1. We see prophecies that are purposely vague today.
2. Historical analogy holds.
3. We see prophecies in the bible.
4. Therefore, at least some of those prophecies are purposely vague.

I don't see any big issue with that. You might object that not ALL prophecies are purposely vague. I would agree. That is why I said, right at the start, that I don't find it an incredibly strong argument.

I won't make any effort to convince you that purposely vague prophecies exist today. If we disagree about that, so be it. It's saturday morning! :)

In short, I think it's true, but it is itself purposely vague and general. ;-) You have to look at every single instance. Of course you do. That is always the case, anyway. However, it does make sense to suspect that vague prophecies are deliberately phrased to be vague, so as to be unfalsifiable. You can't outright deny the possibility from the get-go.
 

idea

Question Everything
You’ll find as much consensus among theoretical physicists regarding the ontological implications of quantum mechanics, or among historians discussing the role of high profile individuals in shaping world events, as you will among theologians interpreting the various books of the Bible.

In all fields of human enquiry there is generally an orthodox position, evolving “one funeral at a time”, but there is always room for dissent, and real progress is frequently made when the prevailing orthodoxy is challenged by the independently minded.

Religious scripture is a distinct subset of the world’s literary pantheon, but it’s still literature and is often best approached as poetry imo. And poetry always lends itself to diverse interpretation, because the act of reading is a two way process, an interaction between writer and reader; no less so, when the two are separated by centuries.

The stages of life - from the cradle of dependency, to leaning on comforting creeds and authoritarian shelters, to a midlife awakening where old shelters crumble and a new world of uncertainties unfolds. A crisis at first, to lose certainty, then slowly the dawn of seeing the possibilities of that new blank canvas. Within the unknowns, the spice of life, mysterious tales, secrets, a song of finding ourselves, finding others, seeing more closely the enchanted magic we are all surrounded by.
 

idea

Question Everything
I like to study scriptures. But I don't think it's possible for me to arrive at the "universal" interpretation of them. Nor do I think anyone else can do such.

It's like a mystery novel where you know that new piece of information is just around the corner that will change everything.

Without knowing everything, we can't be sure of anything. That's ok.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Prophecies/scriptures are purposefully vague which allow for/create a wide range of interpretations. People find meaning in the interpretations that fit their experiences, reinforcing a belief in the legitimacy of various different dogmas. Ambiguity leads to self-fulfilling prophecies as individuals and societies shape their actions based on their understanding of the prophecies, influencing outcomes to match their expectations.


If viewpoints change to recognize the non-literal personal and subjective nature of contemplating/studying scriptures, use spiritual texts for personal exploration of one's own inner thoughts rather than thinking one interpretation applies to everyone, religious texts could be helpful.

How many here enjoy the study of scriptures, hold their own personal interpretations of the text, and see those interpretations as personal - not universal.
We have two sides of the brain. The left side is more differential; analytical, while the right side is more integral; spatial. Like in calculus, differentiation finds the slope at any given point on a curve. While integration finds the area under a curve from A to B.

Prophesy and scripture is more right brain and universal, from A to B. Modern culture is more left brain; analytical, and therefore it tries to define the area under the curve from A to B, as a slope; angle or opinion. Therefore we get a wide range of interpretations. The left brain is wrong tool for the job. Slope; angle, is not the same thing as an area.

However, another way to look at this is prophesy is a set of integral symbols, similar to a 3-D ball. This 3-D ball can be approximated by a large number of 2-D circles all with a common center, but each at different angles. The sum of the all the circles, each with its own unique angle; opinion, all centered on the 3-D symbol, is very close to the 3-D ball. People feel conviction for their interpretation because this common center touches the 3-D ball and all other opinions, even if we are only a circle; collective intuitive feeling.

The sum of all the rational or 2-D interpretations adds up to the 3-D volume of the ball. So it takes time; generations, to generate all the 2-D circles and angles until the 3-D symbol is full or fulfilled. This is part of the mystery of why religions last so long; time potential. The symbols connect to the firmware of the natural brain; timeless like DNA.


Extra;
Many years ago, I developed an interest in bible prophesy and I decided to see if I could add another circle at my own angle. I had become competent at interpreting collective human symbolism, so I thought I would give bible prophesy a try as a rational scientist. My approach was unique. It was based on what is often seen as a warning, to not add or subtract anything, or curses will come to you. After giving this warning thought, I sense it was not so much a warning, but a hint.

Almost all interpretations add words or ignore aspects of the prophesies, such as attribute a symbol to a place like Rome or Persia, while ignoring other things. This breaks the rules of adding or subtracting words. The logical work around was to high-lite the entire bible, both New and Old Testament, of any prophesy I could find; anything with a future prediction, and use just these quotes, like the pieces of a jig saw puzzle. In my case, I printed all the quotes I found, and then I used scissors, to cut them into individual pieces. I then spread them on my living room floor and reassembled them. This way I did not add or take away any single prophesy or word. Everything was there, but the order needed to be rearranged to tell an integrated story.

At the time, I was very knowledgable of collective human symbolism and seeing that Revelations was connected to Christianity and New Testament, my gut told me to use the Four Horsemen; sign of the cross, as the core of the puzzle. Essentially it was a four act play, with the rest of the symbols; pieces, telling the more details for each act; add pieces to the four core symbols.

There were other symbols of four, such as the four beasts of Daniel and the four living creatures around the throne of God. These are all connected, in the same order as the Four Horsemen, and give more detail for assembly in each act of the play. For example, the first Horseman is the color white, while the first beast of Daniel is a lion with the wings of an eagle; white lion. This white lion is a classic symbol of wisdom. The gold crown on the head of the White horseman, is a type of marriage to heaven; mind marriage of wisdom.

he Divine women was also given the wings of an eagle. Wisdom is symbolically female or the Divine woman was the soul; female side; anima, of a man. The White Horseman is wise and gathers the tribes of Israel. This is act one. Many of the optimistic prophesy of Isaiah fill in here as he gathers the tribes.

The Divine woman first appears in heaven; set the background of the white horseman's rise, in labor about to give birth. Satan, the red dragon, is there waiting to devour her child, who is caught to to God and to his throne; psychic pregnancy of a future state as a man. Servant of God or White Horseman.

“A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward.

The Red Horseman is connected to the second beast of Daniel who is a bear built up on one side. The Red Horseman is connected to the two anointed ones, with him the built up side. The bear has three ribs in his mouth; trinity, and told to devour much meat. The Red Horseman has a dividing sword; sound reason behind right from wrong.

The two anointed ones were to become a sacrifice for guilt. The beast from the abyss would wage war and kill them. They like Jesus, they will resurrect and go to heaven in front of everyone. Great fear appears for what will come next.

But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

Jesus was a sacrifice for sin. However, for many, even if your sins were forgiven, many people still feel guilty which counters the intent of forgiveness. This sacrifice would be to remove lingering guilt connected to the forgiveness of sin. This sacrifice sets the stage for the third horseman often seen as the AntiChrist. With sin and guilt gone, the black horseman will make changes to times and law and mess things up, since there is no sin or guilt due to forgiveness.

The third of the four beasts (of Daniel) is “like a leopard,” except it has four bird-like wings on its back and four heads (Daniel 7:6). This beast is given authority to rule.
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I believe each must become their own authority. None should interpret for another.

No borrowed light.

"‘I thought someone could tell me how to paint a landscape. But I never found that person. I just had to settle down and try...They could tell you how they painted their landscape, but they couldn’t tell me how to paint mine." - Georgia O'Keeffe
I agree fully that we each must investigate for ourselves but that the true meaning is known only to God. interpretation is what has divided great religions like Christianity into over 40,000 sects. And scholars have divided Islam.These sects moreover have gone to war with one another as they are no longer united because of their differences of interpretation. That is why we need authoritative interpretations from Messengers of God like Christ, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah. Religious leaders are the mischief makers who through their interpretations have caused so much division.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Prophecies/scriptures are purposefully vague which allow for/create a wide range of interpretations. People find meaning in the interpretations that fit their experiences, reinforcing a belief in the legitimacy of various different dogmas. Ambiguity leads to self-fulfilling prophecies as individuals and societies shape their actions based on their understanding of the prophecies, influencing outcomes to match their expectations.


If viewpoints change to recognize the non-literal personal and subjective nature of contemplating/studying scriptures, use spiritual texts for personal exploration of one's own inner thoughts rather than thinking one interpretation applies to everyone, religious texts could be helpful.

How many here enjoy the study of scriptures, hold their own personal interpretations of the text, and see those interpretations as personal - not universal.
Here, Baha’u’llah, Who we Baha’is believe to be the latest Messenger from God, has written about interpretation and speaks about both literal and symbolic interpretations as well as those ‘only known to God’.

The purpose of interpretation is this: that none become deprived of that which is evident, and be veiled from that which is intended. A fair man will comprehend which instance is to be interpreted and in which instance the outward command of the revelation is intended. (Baha’u’llah)

 
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idea

Question Everything
I agree fully that we each must investigate for ourselves but that the true meaning is known only to God. interpretation is what has divided great religions like Christianity into over 40,000 sects. And scholars have divided Islam.These sects moreover have gone to war with one another as they are no longer united because of their differences of interpretation. That is why we need authoritative interpretations from Messengers of God like Christ, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah. Religious leaders are the mischief makers who through their interpretations have caused so much division.

Christ, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are the mischief makers. Wars will end when individuals no longer follow dictators, no longer follow priests, no longer follow prophets.

Groupthink, tribalism, it all needs to be replaced by individuals taking responsibility for themselves. By the people, for the people, checks and balances - no organization is perfect, but it needs to be everyone's voice, everyone's vote.

Healthy vs. Unhealthy societies.

Unhealthty = dictators, kings/queens, prophets, popes

Healthy = everyone equally heard, individual self-reliance, democracy.

Any religious group or god, who doesn't teach self-reliance is evil and power-hungry. Effective teaching, praiseworthy God whether in religious or educational contexts, encourages individuals to develop their talents and capabilities rather than fostering dependence.
 

idea

Question Everything
We have two sides of the brain. The left side is more differential; analytical, while the right side is more integral; spatial. Like in calculus, differentiation finds the slope at any given point on a curve. While integration finds the area under a curve from A to B.

Prophesy and scripture is more right brain and universal, from A to B. Modern culture is more left brain; analytical, and therefore it tries to define the area under the curve from A to B, as a slope; angle or opinion. Therefore we get a wide range of interpretations. The left brain is wrong tool for the job. Slope; angle, is not the same thing as an area.

However, another way to look at this is prophesy is a set of integral symbols, similar to a 3-D ball. This 3-D ball can be approximated by a large number of 2-D circles all with a common center, but each at different angles. The sum of the all the circles, each with its own unique angle; opinion, all centered on the 3-D symbol, is very close to the 3-D ball. People feel conviction for their interpretation because this common center touches the 3-D ball and all other opinions, even if we are only a circle; collective intuitive feeling.

The sum of all the rational or 2-D interpretations adds up to the 3-D volume of the ball. So it takes time; generations, to generate all the 2-D circles and angles until the 3-D symbol is full or fulfilled. This is part of the mystery of why religions last so long; time potential. The symbols connect to the firmware of the natural brain; timeless like DNA.


Extra;
Many years ago, I developed an interest in bible prophesy and I decided to see if I could add another circle at my own angle. I had become competent at interpreting collective human symbolism, so I thought I would give bible prophesy a try as a rational scientist. My approach was unique. It was based on what is often seen as a warning, to not add or subtract anything, or curses will come to you. After giving this warning thought, I sense it was not so much a warning, but a hint.

Almost all interpretations add words or ignore aspects of the prophesies, such as attribute a symbol to a place like Rome or Persia, while ignoring other things. This breaks the rules of adding or subtracting words. The logical work around was to high-lite the entire bible, both New and Old Testament, of any prophesy I could find; anything with a future prediction, and use just these quotes, like the pieces of a jig saw puzzle. In my case, I printed all the quotes I found, and then I used scissors, to cut them into individual pieces. I then spread them on my living room floor and reassembled them. This way I did not add or take away any single prophesy or word. Everything was there, but the order needed to be rearranged to tell an integrated story.

At the time, I was very knowledgable of collective human symbolism and seeing that Revelations was connected to Christianity and New Testament, my gut told me to use the Four Horsemen; sign of the cross, as the core of the puzzle. Essentially it was a four act play, with the rest of the symbols; pieces, telling the more details for each act; add pieces to the four core symbols.

There were other symbols of four, such as the four beasts of Daniel and the four living creatures around the throne of God. These are all connected, in the same order as the Four Horsemen, and give more detail for assembly in each act of the play. For example, the first Horseman is the color white, while the first beast of Daniel is a lion with the wings of an eagle; white lion. This white lion is a classic symbol of wisdom. The gold crown on the head of the White horseman, is a type of marriage to heaven; mind marriage of wisdom.

he Divine women was also given the wings of an eagle. Wisdom is symbolically female or the Divine woman was the soul; female side; anima, of a man. The White Horseman is wise and gathers the tribes of Israel. This is act one. Many of the optimistic prophesy of Isaiah fill in here as he gathers the tribes.

The Divine woman first appears in heaven; set the background of the white horseman's rise, in labor about to give birth. Satan, the red dragon, is there waiting to devour her child, who is caught to to God and to his throne; psychic pregnancy of a future state as a man. Servant of God or White Horseman.



The Red Horseman is connected to the second beast of Daniel who is a bear built up on one side. The Red Horseman is connected to the two anointed ones, with him the built up side. The bear has three ribs in his mouth; trinity, and told to devour much meat. The Red Horseman has a dividing sword; sound reason behind right from wrong.

The two anointed ones were to become a sacrifice for guilt. The beast from the abyss would wage war and kill them. They like Jesus, they will resurrect and go to heaven in front of everyone. Great fear appears for what will come next.



Jesus was a sacrifice for sin. However, for many, even if your sins were forgiven, many people still feel guilty which counters the intent of forgiveness. This sacrifice would be to remove lingering guilt connected to the forgiveness of sin. This sacrifice sets the stage for the third horseman often seen as the AntiChrist. With sin and guilt gone, the black horseman will make changes to times and law and mess things up, since there is no sin or guilt due to forgiveness.

The common center. Lewis does a good job collecting common themes which many groups share:


Research vs. plagiarism:

Research: Use multiple sources from multiple unaffiliated groups. If two different independent groups independently arrive at the same conclusions - or many groups - this should be personally investigated. Responsible researchers use many references, study many groups, many cultures, many people, and additionally experiment themselves. Write your own individual paper, add your own personal observations and data, know you and everyone could still be wrong, never refuse to change opinion, never stop researching, never confined to single group, lifelong diverse learning, evolving, changing, refining.

Plagiarism - only one book, only one group, copy don't think for yourself, then refuse to change.... - not so healthy for any line of thought.
 
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idea

Question Everything
Sorry, what is vague in that?

Things not seen, not written, mystery.
Light a fire, don't fill a bucket.
Good teachers don't just give students an answer, but allow students to create their own answer.

Musician/artist/engineer - need to find their own style, their own design.

Progress isn't made if the final goal is to copy copy copy.

Everyone becomes a unique creator is the most glorious end goal.
 

idea

Question Everything
True, no man knows the day or hour until it arrives. And when it arrived then we knew.

The JW's (Bible Students, Mormons) believe the 2nd coming has already happened - like the dawn, like a thief in the night, slowly illuminating.

To me, no one knows the day or hour when any individual finds that Light within themselves, discovers the strength of their own two feet, finds their own authority - from student to colleague - the transition- no one can say when this happens for another. Each must individually step up themselves, their own time, their own mind, not known or dictated by another.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Christ, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are the mischief makers. Wars will end when individuals no longer follow dictators, no longer follow priests, no longer follow prophets.

Groupthink, tribalism, it all needs to be replaced by individuals taking responsibility for themselves. By the people, for the people, checks and balances - no organization is perfect, but it needs to be everyone's voice, everyone's vote.

Healthy vs. Unhealthy societies.

Unhealthty = dictators, kings/queens, prophets, popes

Healthy = everyone equally heard, individual self-reliance, democracy.

Any religious group or god, who doesn't teach self-reliance is evil and power-hungry. Effective teaching, praiseworthy God whether in religious or educational contexts, encourages individuals to develop their talents and capabilities rather than fostering dependence.
Replacing God's Authority with that of mankind will never work. Manipulators will manipulate others - the way out is to trust and rely on God and his guidance.

Not only that, but mischief in the earth will be too severe were it not God and his forces. He is the King of mankind, and appoints as kings on his behalf who he wishes. He has take upon himself to give security on earth and in the lands.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Christ, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are the mischief makers. Wars will end when individuals no longer follow dictators, no longer follow priests, no longer follow prophets.

Groupthink, tribalism, it all needs to be replaced by individuals taking responsibility for themselves. By the people, for the people, checks and balances - no organization is perfect, but it needs to be everyone's voice, everyone's vote.

Healthy vs. Unhealthy societies.

Unhealthty = dictators, kings/queens, prophets, popes

Healthy = everyone equally heard, individual self-reliance, democracy.

Any religious group or god, who doesn't teach self-reliance is evil and power-hungry. Effective teaching, praiseworthy God whether in religious or educational contexts, encourages individuals to develop their talents and capabilities rather than fostering dependence.
I agree that dictators and priests and popes have caused hatred, wars and prejudices but that is because they have not obeyed the laws of the Prophets which teach love and unity of all human beings. I believe in the independent investigation of truth, that is, to look with an unbiased mind using our own mind and eyes not others.

As to dependency I disagree. Yes we should not be dependant on any person’s knowledge as man is fallible and prone to error. But God does not err and I believe His knowledge is perfect. So not to depend on any man that is definitely correct. But to turn away from God’s guidance I believe that to be a grave mistake as God i believe is All Knowing.

Christ, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah all defended independent thought and promoted love and unity. If blame is to be assigned it is to the clergy and followers who, instead of fostering harmony chased after power and wealth. That is not the fault of the Prophets.

“O Son of Spirit!

The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.”

Bahá'u'lláh
 
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