The Pursuit of Knowledge vs. The Pursuit of Wisdom

[Koldo]

What exactly is your issue with my stance?

Anyone can say they are speaking out of their wisdom to assert anything.

 

[PureX]

Anyone can say they are speaking out of their wisdom to assert anything.

Why is this a problem for you?

 

[Koldo]

Why is this a problem for you?

If anyone can assert anything out of a self-proclaimed wisdom, how is this wisdom the currency of truth when two people can be asserting two completely opposite things that could not be true at the same time?

 

[PureX]

If anyone can assert anything out of a self-proclaimed wisdom, how is this wisdom the currency of truth when two people can be asserting two completely opposite things that could not be true at the same time?

You are assuming that truth is a singularity. But from our limited perspective and experience of it, it clearly is not. The truth is both the 'yin' and the 'yang' together even though they appear to us to oppose and contradict each other. Accepting this, I think, is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[Heyo]

Facts are both relative and dynamic. They depend on constantly shifting context for their voracity. So they are not the power-brokers that you are insinuating, here. We can each collect a set of facts that will lead us to a different conclusion about the same subject, and we will both still be "correct" in our facts AND or reasoning.

"Alternative facts" were one of the first attacks against reality by Donald Trump. He and you have the same idea about facts, they are subjective. State a bold lie and repeat it often enough, and people will believe it - and refute to give evidence. In 2020, Trump asserted that the election was "stolen" from him. He and his lawyers refused (or were unable) to give evidence in 60 trials. But his fans didn't accept the reality of that, and some were willing to storm the Capitol and kill Pence. Facts didn't bother them.
You are defending them and Trump by accepting their scheme to bend the (single) truth and establish their own. It is like Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."
Alternative facts and multiple truths are absurdities to all rationally thinking people.

 

[Koldo]

You are assuming that truth is a singularity. But from our limited perspective and experience of it, it clearly is not. The truth is both the 'yin' and the 'yang' together even though they appear to us to oppose and contradict each other. Accepting this, I think, is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I do not believe, think, or feel that knowledge is the currency of reality or truth. I think WISDOM is. And wisdom does not come primarily from knowledge. Wisdom comes from experience and applied intelligence.

Wisdom is a specific kind of knowledge. I define intelligence as the ability to identify and solve problems to obtain one's immediate goals and wisdom as the knowledge of what goals to pursue to bring lasting satisfaction. Thus, an "intelligent" fool is somebody who succeeds in achieving goals that leave him empty. Look at Trump to see a prime example - a man who succeeded at achieving his immediate goals of wealth, fame, and power, but who has never seen happiness.

So I apologize to all those atheists for my presuming they were simply succumbed to their own intellectual egos. As I can now see that what they have succumbed to is the idea that knowledge = correctness, and correctness = reality/truth.

So you've gone from seeing atheists (I think you mean critical thinkers) as corrupt and self-centered egotists to pursuing knowledge? That's a pretty substantial change of opinion.

It's not that they are wrong about this. It's that they are chasing after the wrong Grail.

It's not that they are wrong, but that they are making a mistake?

Thanks for your concern, but I've found my grail. I believe that living mindfully has taught me what to pursue throughout life and how to acquire it to maximize contentment, which is my definition of acquiring wisdom. My grail was and remains to be safe, happy, comfortable, stimulated by interesting activities, be surrounded by love and beauty, and be in the company of loved ones, which for me is a wife and two dogs upon whose happiness mine depends.

How about you? What grail are you chasing after instead that you consider the right grail? Have you found it and has it rewarded you as you had hoped and anticipated?

 

[Mock Turtle]

As YOU experience and understand it ...

As evidence exists. We don't choose such, but analyse it.

According to your current perception and understanding. Right?

But not yours?

Are you seeing the confirmation bias beginning, here?

But not yours?

As you have just done, systematically.

Not. Why should I accept one version of 'the truth'?

As any of us can be doing at any time, since our grasp of 'the whole truth' is extremely limited.

No kidding. Well why are so many here telling us that they just know? Because they have experienced something perhaps.

"So many" being all of us.

Not all, given that some of us recognise the limitations of knowledge - and hence will be agnostic atheists .

Why indeed! I strongly suspect that most of the time we pick the "true reality" that we're hoping to live in.

No. Your error. For myself I don't expect or hope for any particular reality, but rather try to see just what is.

Ego certainly does play a role in all of this.

Cor!

As is everyone else. Believe it or not. But we are playing cards with a very incomplete and confused deck. And so often resort do plain old personal desire to decide what cards to drop and what cards to keep.

Which explains why we have so many different religious beliefs, the conflicts, and all the rest.

 

[PureX]

"Alternative facts" were one of the first attacks against reality by Donald Trump. He and you have the same idea about facts, they are subjective.

Trump is not presenting alternative facts, he is just flat out lying.

Also, facts are not "subjective", they are RELATIVE. Big difference. What is subjective is our experience/perception of them.

 

[PureX]

As evidence exists. We don't choose such, but analyse it.

Data is just data. It's not evidence of anything until you decide it is.

Why should I accept one version of 'the truth'?

Since the truth has "versions", perhaps it would be wise to remain skeptical of them all.

Not all, given that some of us recognise the limitations of knowledge - and hence will be agnostic atheists.

Whatever. Everyone is picking and choosing according to their own biases and desires. Then they are telling everyone else that they had no choice because their view of reality IS REALITY.

No. Your error. For myself I don't expect or hope for any particular reality, but rather try to see just what is.

And that is your particular chosen ideal reality. If you didn't desire it, choose another.

Which explains why we have so many different religious beliefs, the conflicts, and all the rest.

Most of the conflicts come from people chasing after knowledge instead of wisdom. They gain some the knowledge they seek, or some acceptable facsimile, and then have no idea what to do with it, so they behave like idiots.

 

[Heyo]

Trump is not presenting alternative facts, he is just flat out lying.

What's the difference?

Also, facts are not "subjective", they are RELATIVE. Big difference. What is subjective is our experience/perception of them.

Relative to what?

 

[PureX]

What's the difference?

Facts are true or false relative to other fact sets. Lies are only true to the degree necessary to complete the desired deception.

Relative to what?

Relative to other fact sets. The train whistle is blowing a D#, the train whistle is blowing a C, the train whistle is blowing a B flat. The train whistle is ascending in pitch, the train whistle is descending in pitch. All five facts are true and correct, and all five facts are false and incorrect relative to the adjacent facts (motion, direction, perspective location, etc.).

 

[PureX]

How about you? What grail are you chasing after instead that you consider the right grail? Have you found it and has it rewarded you as you had hoped and anticipated?

I don't think there is a "Grail" (knowable truth) available to us. I think the best we can do is keep our eyes and minds as open and broadcast as possible and keep adapting to the 'flow'.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I don't think there is a "Grail" (knowable truth) available to us.

Yet you wrote, "It's that they are chasing after the wrong Grail" anyway as if there were a correct grail and you knew what it was. I guess not.

Did you have an intelligent or honorable reason for doing that given your actual opinion?

Can we assume that you agreed with all of the content of that post that you ignored?

Incidentally, as long as you continue making such baseless, derogatory attacks, you should expect to receive answers like this one.

Hopefully, if you have any say over it or any self-control, that's what you want. If not, perhaps it's time for an attitude adjustment or at a minimum, some self-censoring.

 

[PureX]

Yet you wrote, "It's that they are chasing after the wrong Grail" anyway as if there were a correct grail and you knew what it was. I guess not.

The "correct Grail" (since you seem to really want there to be one) would be the wisdom of honest and creative thinking. (As opposed to the correctness and presumed truth of gained knowledge.)

Can we assume that you agreed with all of the content of that post that you ignored?

That would be quite a foolish assumption.

Incidentally, as long as you continue making such baseless, derogatory attacks, you should expect to receive answers like this one.

No one is being "attacked".

 

[Alien826]

I don't think there is a "Grail" (knowable truth) available to us. I think the best we can do is keep our eyes and minds as open and broadcast as possible and keep adapting to the 'flow'.

Do you demonstrate that in your real life? I mean, if there are conflicting "truths" available to you about some important matter where you have to make a decision, how do you decide? Just pick any one as they are all equally true and false at the same time? Stand frozen in indecision?

 

[PureX]

Do you demonstrate that in your real life? I mean, if there are conflicting "truths" available to you about some important matter where you have to make a decision, how do you decide? Just pick any one as they are all equally true and false at the same time? Stand frozen in indecision?

Saying "they are all equally true" presupposed that we can know their relative truthfulness in advance of choosing them. This would be an expression of dishonesty and arrogance, not of honesty and wisdom.

Since we can't know what we don't know, all we can ever do is identify our choices as best we can, and then choose. And then change it as needed. Most people will choose according to the result they most hope to manifest. And why not? But whatever comes, we need to be willing and able to keep adapting, and keep choosing.

 

[plodding inarticulateness]

The Pursuit of Knowledge vs. The Pursuit of Wisdom

The problem with your argument here is that “Wisdom” is an antiquated and essentially vacuous term. It has no real value and as such hardly merits being pursued.

“Wisdom”, what constitutes or merits the label, is completely subjective and relative. It is not a fixed thing. In addition, any application of the term can only come well after the results of choices or action to be labeled “wise” have fully played out and all their ramifications become known. It is at best a word for historians. And since what constitutes or qualifies as “wisdom” is entirely subjective, what may be deemed “wise” in the generation in which choices and actions are made may be deemed the exact opposite in subsequent generations.

So we set “Wisdom” aside, and where does that leave us? We still have to make choices and take actions in the present. How do we make (granted entirely subjectively) the best choices and actions possible? We do it by being as accurately informed as possible, by pursuing knowledge. The more complete and accurate the information we use to make decisions and take actions, the greater our ability to predict and anticipate the outcome of those actions.

Still, we will often find ourselves unable to be fully informed and will have to do the best we can within the limits of our current perception. Hopefully subsequent generations won’t be overcritical in their evaluation of our choices and actions made today within our current state of ignorance.

 

[wellwisher]

As per the OP: "Wisdom comes from experience and applied intelligence. Wisdom doesn't come from the facts, or the evidence, or the biggest data base and the strictest adherence to logic. Wisdom comes from how clearly we can we 'see' all that data and how creatively and adeptly we can assemble it, and disassemble it, and reassemble it differently, as needed. Knowledge is practical, but wisdom is 'meta-practical'. Wisdom IS 'meta'. It exists beyond the "evidence" and the "proof" and our pretensions of 'correctness'."

Knowledge is more like a catalog of facts and conclusions. Whereas wisdom is about using and applying this set to add to knowledge. The problem with knowledge is it is only as good as your data base. Partial facts, such as used in politics, can lead to conclusions that can fit a smaller data base, but become erroneous conclusions, that do support all the facts. Wisdom, tries to stay in the middle, instead of Left or Right, Atheism or Religion, etc. It also does not try to specialize, since sometimes the best answers come from a composite of specialties, each with truth pieces of a much larger puzzle.

List of philosophies - Wikipedia

For example, the subject of philosophy, has a huge list of different philosophical schools. You can pick one and become an expert of its truth. Or you can learn them all, and try to figure out how the average the larger truth; wisdom. Applied thinking is also common to wisdom since this is how you test your ideas. If in touch with reality one can anticipate the results.

I like both science and religion. I prefer the path of wisdom even if the truth appear to be in conflict with itself. That is not due to truth, but two branches of knowledge, each using half the truth. This is often symbolized as Jesus on the cross between two thieves. One is in a state of tension being pulled in opposite directions. The value is the synthesis into a wisdom.

 

[PureX]

The problem with your argument here is that “Wisdom” is an antiquated and essentially vacuous term. It has no real value and as such hardly merits being pursued.

Well that's just silly. Wisdom is the application of intelligence and creativity. And is therefor of great value to we humans as both both present and lacking.

“Wisdom”, what constitutes or merits the label, is completely subjective and relative.

Yep. Why you think this is some sort of problem I can only presume to be because you are a knowledge seeker. You want to be able to KNOW X = X. And relativism and subjectivity make that impossible for you.

Seems to me you are exemplifying the point being made in at the to of the thread.

It is not a fixed thing.

Nothing is.

In addition, any application of the term can only come well after the results of choices or action to be labeled “wise” have fully played out and all their ramifications become known.

Again, you seem to imagine that wisdom is a 'thing' that sits around awaiting our recognition and appreciation. But it's not. It's a way of being. It only happens in the here and now, and only if we are choosing that way of being.