The Quran as a miracle - is it a legitimate challenge?

[Link]

God can speak in a way humans cannot. He can put signs in his speech that would indicate it's from him and beyond capability of humans. I think this is rational, as we see there is ranks to eloquence, and not everyone is capable of the same eloquence.

Therefore if God speaks in a way beyond all humans and challenges all humans and Jinn, to bring something like it if they don't believe it's revealed by God, I believe this is a legitimate challenge.

I also believe some of the sermons and prayers and visitations taught by Ahlulbayt (a) are beyond normal humans, but still, I can see Quran is MUCH higher in eloquence, form, and speech.

So people can't even replicate some of the works of Ahlulbayt (a) and bring something similar to it, let alone the Quran which is signs from God in form of speech.

I believe it's legitimate challenge, bring something like it or akin to it. Another challenge it poses which is fair, you claim it's not guidance from God, then bring something more guiding than it.

Both challenges are fair from my perspective.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Both challenges are fair from my perspective.

What if someone said to you: bring forth descriptive mathematical physics equations either as compelling or more compelling than Albert Einstein's, otherwise you simply prove yourself not as mathematically gifted.

Wouldn't you simply admit you weren't as mathematically gifted?

Also related to this - if you can't produce mathematical physics equations on par with Einstein, does this serve as proof of God's existence, do you think? Would it be that God had to have revealed those equations to Einstein if there are no others up to the challenge?

Point being - substituting the "eloquence" of the Quran as executed by its authors DOES NOT suddenly serve as a proof of God's having had to have been involved in its crafting.

 

[Link]

Math has specific people, and so you are appealing to a minority already. Eloquence - is something everyone can work on, but I do get what you mean. The thing is it didn't say you as an individual have to bring it, but if you can get anyone to bring something like it, and combined effort is allowed.

If humans and Jinn can't combine together to bring something like it, I would say that's a major sign it's from God. Perhaps, not a certainty, but huge indication that it should be studied and taken seriously.

The real signs of certainty are revealed to the heart which is a personal experience with Quran. But the fact no one - and you can get help from others and even combine efforts per Quran with others, has been able bring something like it so far. That's saying a lot.

 

[F1fan]

Why assume a God exists in the first place?

 

[F1fan]

If a person assumes their god exists they are going to find out it does, and they experience it. Oddly, other types of theists experience different Gods. Explain.

 

[Link]

Why assume a God exists in the first place?

Not every thread has to be about this topic. I've talked about God and his existence and proofs for it in other threads. But this thread is not about that.

 

[icehorse]

How about Rumi or Shakespeare ?

 

[viole]

So people can't even replicate some of the works of Ahlulbayt (a)

Who on earth is Ahlulbayt?

Ciao

- viole

 

[F1fan]

Not every thread has to be about this topic. I've talked about God and his existence and proofs for it in other threads. But this thread is not about that.

Yet you are referencing a God as if it exists, yes?

 

[sun rise]

I don't find any book to be a miracle. The Quran is full of contradictions which legions of theologians try to explain away with theories such as one section superseding another. And there's quite a bit of legitimate criticism documented here: Criticism of the Quran - Wikipedia

I know many Muslims dismiss such critiques but that does not stop the rest of us from finding them entirely valid.

 

[Link]

I don't find any book to be a miracle. The Quran is full of contradictions which legions of theologians try to explain away with theories such as one section superseding another. And there's quite a bit of legitimate criticism documented here: Criticism of the Quran - Wikipedia

I know many Muslims dismiss such critiques but that does not stop the rest of us from finding them entirely valid.

Let's open a thread about contradictions in Quran. But going to your first sentence, since you find no book, is God capable of making a book a miracle or incapable? And if the former, why hasn't he done so?

 

[Link]

Who on earth is Ahlulbayt?

Ciao

- viole

Prophet Mohammad, Fatima and the Twelve Successors:

 

[Link]

Yet you are referencing a God as if it exists, yes?

Yes and not every thread has to be about whether God exists or not.

 

[F1fan]

Yes and not every thread has to be about whether God exists or not.

If one of your assumptions is that a God exists, or is a premise, or aims to be a conclusion, then it's up for debate.

If you're going to ask if the Quran is a miracle, well let's discuss ALL the elements in regards to it. You seem to prefer a more fellowship environment where your basic religious assumptions are accepted as true. But in a diverse forum those assumptions aren't going to be accepted, they need to be established as true FIRST.

 

[Link]

If one of your assumptions is that a God exists, or is a premise, or aims to be a conclusion, then it's up for debate.

If you're going to ask if the Quran is a miracle, well let's discuss ALL the elements in regards to it. You seem to prefer a more fellowship environment where your basic religious assumptions are accepted as true. But in a diverse forum those assumptions aren't going to be accepted, they need to be established as true FIRST.

Quran being a miracle is about specifically, Nubuwa of Mohammad (s).

While God or whether God sends Anbiya in the first place at all even if he does exist, can be a debate, the debate really is not about that, but the particularly about the Nubuwa of Mohammad (s).

Those are two great topics

"Does God exist?"
"Does God reveal books/send Anbiya?"

But this thread is not about that. It's about given he does exist and does send Anbiya, is the Quran challenge legitimate?

 

[dybmh]

It sounds like this challenge is promoting spirit writing.

Automatic writing - Wikipedia

Wouldn't that be prohibited in Islam?

 

[Koldo]

God can speak in a way humans cannot. He can put signs in his speech that would indicate it's from him and beyond capability of humans. I think this is rational, as we see there is ranks to eloquence, and not everyone is capable of the same eloquence.

Therefore if God speaks in a way beyond all humans and challenges all humans and Jinn, to bring something like it if they don't believe it's revealed by God, I believe this is a legitimate challenge.

I also believe some of the sermons and prayers and visitations taught by Ahlulbayt (a) are beyond normal humans, but still, I can see Quran is MUCH higher in eloquence, form, and speech.

So people can't even replicate some of the works of Ahlulbayt (a) and bring something similar to it, let alone the Quran which is signs from God in form of speech.

I believe it's legitimate challenge, bring something like it or akin to it. Another challenge it poses which is fair, you claim it's not guidance from God, then bring something more guiding than it.

Both challenges are fair from my perspective.

How are you measuring eloquence, form and speech? I take it you mean that you are using an objective method?

 

[Link]

It sounds like this challenge is promoting spirit writing.

Automatic writing - Wikipedia

Wouldn't that be prohibited in Islam?

Prohibited for believers to trust soothsayers and their Angels, because they are of dark forces and unclean energy from our perspective, but if you in doubt, of course, who can stop you from seeking help of either other humans or Jinn? Quran saying so won't stop you, and so go ahead, bring a book like Quran, all humans and Jinn can help each other, they won't be able to, is what Quran says.

 

[Link]

How are you measuring eloquence, form and speech? I take it you mean that you are using an objective method?

This is a good question. We can look at examples and see if the criteria measuring that eloquence in Quran, is objective.

 

[Link]

I will make a thread separate from this about high eloquence examples in Quran. Because the question of this thread, is if the Quran challenge in itself is a fair one and then we can look a thread discussing particular high eloquence signs in Quran.