The Quran as a miracle - is it a legitimate challenge?

[dybmh]

Prohibited for believers to trust soothsayers and their Angels, because they are of dark forces and unclean energy from our perspective, but if you in doubt, of course, who can stop you from seeking help of either other humans or Jinn? Quran saying so won't stop you, and so go ahead, bring a book like Quran, all humans and Jinn can help each other, they won't be able to, is what Quran says.

If I follow your directive, then I'm spending my time chasing after practioners in dark forces asking them to recreate a Quran-like text? The challenge is unrealistic. Who would actually do this?

 

[Link]

If I follow your directive, then I'm spending my time chasing after practioners in dark forces asking them to recreate a Quran-like text? The challenge is unrealistic. Who would actually do this?

The ones who claim Quran is false or in serious doubt about it should in my view, Instead of just claiming it's false, let them prove it false. If you don't doubt God and Mohammad (s), no need to.

And to each person, they are addressed differently. Jewish people have specific proofs in Quran and how Quran calls to them is different, since they have a lot of foundations true.

But the specific taunt to Jinn and Humans who work together stands for those people who are part of that.

If you are not part of that but believe in Nubuwa of Musa but not Mohammad's (s), Quran addresses you differently, and says the same reasons you should believe in Nubuwa of Musa (a) should make you accept Mohammad (s). That, and the correction to the Torah were Torah goes against it's own central theme are key.

 

[Koldo]

I will make a thread separate from this about high eloquence examples in Quran. Because the question of this thread, is if the Quran challenge in itself is a fair one and then we can look a thread discussing particular high eloquence signs in Quran.

Depends on what you mean by 'fair'.

This is a good question. We can look at examples and see if the criteria measuring that eloquence in Quran, is objective.

Sure, please go ahead.

 

[viole]

Prophet Mohammad, Fatima and the Twelve Successors:

And who on earth are they?
Or was Fatima the little kid that Mohammed married, by any chance?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Link]

And who on earth are they?
Or was Fatima the little kid that Mohammed married, by any chance?

Ciao

- viole

Do some research, and let me know what you think. Then we can discuss.

 

[viole]

Do some research, and let me know what you think. Then we can discuss.

I agree I am not an expert. I only know that Mohammed married a 9 years old, which would qualify him as a pedophile, BPUH.

Or am I wrong?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Link]

I agree I am not an expert. I only know that Mohammed married a 9 years old, which would qualify him as a pedophile, BPUH.

Or am I wrong?

Ciao

- viole

Different topic. You can open a thread about it.

 

[F1fan]

Quran being a miracle is about specifically, Nubuwa of Mohammad (s).

While God or whether God sends Anbiya in the first place at all even if he does exist, can be a debate, the debate really is not about that, but the particularly about the Nubuwa of Mohammad (s).

Those are two great topics

"Does God exist?"
"Does God reveal books/send Anbiya?"

But this thread is not about that. It's about given he does exist and does send Anbiya, is the Quran challenge legitimate?

Well gee whiz given you can assume any number of premises are true you can assume your conclusion is true, too.

If you assume a God exists, well sure, why not miracles, or a sent prophet, or a devine book. If you want speculative debate you need to clarify the ground rules for it.

 

[Link]

Well gee whiz given you can assume any number of premises are true you can assume your conclusion is true, too.

If you assume a God exists, well sure, why not miracles, or a sent prophet, or a devine book. If you want speculative debate you need to clarify the ground rules for it.

You can make a topic about this. I'll be there. If someone is proving Prophets exist or day of judgment for example, you will have to put the God question on hold when discussing that topic. But make a topic about this and I will be there. I don't want to debate this in this thread.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

God can speak in a way humans cannot. He can put signs in his speech that would indicate it's from him and beyond capability of humans. I think this is rational, as we see there is ranks to eloquence, and not everyone is capable of the same eloquence.

Therefore if God speaks in a way beyond all humans and challenges all humans and Jinn, to bring something like it if they don't believe it's revealed by God, I believe this is a legitimate challenge.

I also believe some of the sermons and prayers and visitations taught by Ahlulbayt (a) are beyond normal humans, but still, I can see Quran is MUCH higher in eloquence, form, and speech.

So people can't even replicate some of the works of Ahlulbayt (a) and bring something similar to it, let alone the Quran which is signs from God in form of speech.

I believe it's legitimate challenge, bring something like it or akin to it. Another challenge it poses which is fair, you claim it's not guidance from God, then bring something more guiding than it.

Both challenges are fair from my perspective.

i may be off the rails, but here goes:

I am going to assume that Quran is God’s word
(I have no reason to assume otherwise)

then God must provide some people with the eyes to understanding the Quran
(If not, what is the purpose? and mustn’t God have a purpose?)

those people would then understand clearly what is written, and then be able to write similar things either to act as a bridge to explain it to others, or to expand on it.

i am not capable of doing this, but there must be some people who could do so, maybe even you?

 

[Link]

i may be off the rails, but here goes:

I am going to assume that Quran is God’s word
(I have no reason to assume otherwise)

then God must provide some people with the eyes to understanding the Quran
(If not, what is the purpose? and mustn’t God have a purpose?)

those people would then understand clearly what is written, and then be able to write similar things either to act as a bridge to explain it to others, or to expand on it.

i am not capable of doing this, but there must be some people who could do so, maybe even you?

We can't write similar, but we can help facilitate insights into Quran and Sunnah.

 

[icehorse]

I believe it's legitimate challenge, bring something like it or akin to it. Another challenge it poses which is fair, you claim it's not guidance from God, then bring something more guiding than it.

ICYMI - How about the works of Rumi or Shakespeare or any number of gifted authors?

 

[Link]

ICYMI - How about the works of Rumi or Shakespeare or any number of gifted authors?

Take shakespeare for example, there are many "fake" works attributed to him and it takes experts to sort that, not that people can't write in his style.

 

[Truthseeker]

God can speak in a way humans cannot. He can put signs in his speech that would indicate it's from him and beyond capability of humans. I think this is rational, as we see there is ranks to eloquence, and not everyone is capable of the same eloquence.

Therefore if God speaks in a way beyond all humans and challenges all humans and Jinn, to bring something like it if they don't believe it's revealed by God, I believe this is a legitimate challenge.

I also believe some of the sermons and prayers and visitations taught by Ahlulbayt (a) are beyond normal humans, but still, I can see Quran is MUCH higher in eloquence, form, and speech.

So people can't even replicate some of the works of Ahlulbayt (a) and bring something similar to it, let alone the Quran which is signs from God in form of speech.

I believe it's legitimate challenge, bring something like it or akin to it. Another challenge it poses which is fair, you claim it's not guidance from God, then bring something more guiding than it.

Both challenges are fair from my perspective.

The Qur'an beauty and eloquence doesn't translate well to English, I understand.

 

[Truthseeker]

The real signs of certainty are revealed to the heart which is a personal experience with Quran.

That's the best proof of any scripture.

 

[Truthseeker]

Prophet Mohammad, Fatima and the Twelve Successors:

In other words the Twelve Imams.

 

[Link]

The Qur'an beauty and eloquence doesn't translate well to English, I understand.

Some signs in Arabic of eloquence are missed, but there other signs of eloquence that translate to any language. Mohammad (s) is sent to all people.

 

[Truthseeker]

How are you measuring eloquence, form and speech? I take it you mean that you are using an objective method?

Personally, I don't think eloquence can be measured objectively. In the case of the Qur'an the English translation is a poor way to measure the eloquence anyway. It loses something in translation.

 

[Link]

Personally, I don't think eloquence can be measured objectively. In the case of the Qur'an the English translation is a poor way to measure the eloquence anyway. It loses something in translation.

I disagree. There are some points in eloquence that can be seen to be eloquent objectively. The degree of amazement and wow factor will differ person to person, but you can point to amazing eloquent signs. And when they add up in Quran, they make a cumulative case.

Some of these signs are best seen in Arabic. Some of the eloquent signs in terms of eloquence don't require that.

 

[Clara Tea]

God can speak in a way humans cannot. He can put signs in his speech that would indicate it's from him and beyond capability of humans. I think this is rational, as we see there is ranks to eloquence, and not everyone is capable of the same eloquence.

Therefore if God speaks in a way beyond all humans and challenges all humans and Jinn, to bring something like it if they don't believe it's revealed by God, I believe this is a legitimate challenge.

I also believe some of the sermons and prayers and visitations taught by Ahlulbayt (a) are beyond normal humans, but still, I can see Quran is MUCH higher in eloquence, form, and speech.

So people can't even replicate some of the works of Ahlulbayt (a) and bring something similar to it, let alone the Quran which is signs from God in form of speech.

I believe it's legitimate challenge, bring something like it or akin to it. Another challenge it poses which is fair, you claim it's not guidance from God, then bring something more guiding than it.

Both challenges are fair from my perspective.

Greatness is measured by the observer, not the braggart. Goodness is measured by deeds.

The Muslim religion has been abysmal with terrorism. They have literally declared war on whole civilizations without even announcing their intent to fight. The only hint of war is the first strike (like the 911 attack). They use peace as a last resort, preferring, instead, wars and terrorist attacks.

I say that terrorism is not a legitimate way to solve one's differences. Instead, one should open dialogs and find peaceful solutions.

Israel has had to deal with so much terrorism (sometimes multiple acts of terrorism per day), that they had to take draconian measures. They built walls, they used rubber bullets (until they realized that they were costing more lives than they save by not deterring violence).

To speak eloquently while destroying is still destroying.