The Qur'an or the Gospels: Which is more authentic?

[LuisDantas]

It doesn't bother me in the slightest about the polling, but it does concern me the lack of participation from Muslims. Where are they? They form a quarter of the worlds population yet they are poorly represented on this forum.

Islam arouses strong feelings in many people as clearly it does for you. I'm not a Muslim of course and my background before becoming a Baha'i was Christian. However, there is an urgent need IMHO to better understand Islam and build bridges of mutual tolerance and understanding. I had thought this religious forum had those goals in mind or am I mistaken?

There is only so much that can be done for Islaam and Muslims without their cooperation.

I have chosen to make my peace with that. It is not my fault that Islaam is essentially predestined to collapse under its own weight and cause a lot of damage to Muslims and others as it does. But it would be my fault if I chose to encourage a greater amount of said damage.

 

[Dawnofhope]

There is only so much that can be done for Islaam and Muslims without their cooperation.

I have chosen to make my peace with that. It is not my fault that Islaam is essentially predestined to collapse under its own weight and cause a lot of damage to Muslims and others as it does. But it would be my fault if I chose to encourage a greater amount of said damage.

It may well be predestined to collapse, but beforehand it is more likely to eclipse Christianity as the largest world religion by the the end of the century.

Islam will be largest religion in the world by 2070, says report

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

Growth of religion - Wikipedia

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

I tried to get God to weigh in on this discussion, but that mofo is always busy.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I tried to get God to weigh in on this discussion, but that mofo is always busy.

You may have to exercise your God given intellect and weigh in on your own behalf!

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

You may have to exercise your God given intellect and weigh in on your own behalf!

Wouldn't you rather get the knowledge from the source? I mean I'm a pretty blasphemous believer and I can be quite bias.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Wouldn't you rather get the knowledge from the source? I mean I'm a pretty blasphemous believer and I can be quite bias.

Some Hindus believe they can directly experience God. Lowly Abrahamics such as myself have to rely on Revealed narratives and intuition.

There’s been some pretty mediocre contributions to this thread already. The worst you can do is join them.

 

[LuisDantas]

It may well be predestined to collapse, but beforehand it is more likely to eclipse Christianity as the largest world religion by the the end of the century.

Islam will be largest religion in the world by 2070, says report

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

Growth of religion - Wikipedia

Oh, if it only were a religion... but it is not.

 

[LuisDantas]

Some Hindus believe they can directly experience God. Lowly Abrahamics such as myself have to rely on Revealed narratives and intuition.

There’s been some pretty mediocre contributions to this thread already. The worst you can do is join them.

I realize that this is somewhat beside the matter, but isn't it widely accepted among Christians may be inspired by the Holy Spirit and as a result act wisely and compassionately?

Of course, that may qualify as the intuition that you mention.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Oh, if it only were a religion... but it is not.

It certainly meets any definition I've looked at, but you may have another...

Definition of religion

1 a : the state of a religious

• a nun in her 20th year of religion

b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural

(2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness

4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Definition of RELIGION

I realize that this is somewhat beside the matter, but isn't it widely accepted among Christians may be inspired by the Holy Spirit and as a result act wisely and compassionately?

Of course, that may qualify as the intuition that you mention.

That's a good point. Christians once they accept Christ, are filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit of course is part of the triune Christian God. So in a sense they have God within them, providing guidance and wisdom. It is of course only Christians that have this special and unique relationship with God. So if you ever wondered why posts from Christians seem to be consistently more enlightened than our meagre offerings....

I suppose grandiose religious beliefs are not just isolated to Hindus who have attained Moksha....I probably have a few too.

 

[LuisDantas]

It certainly meets any definition I've looked at, but you may have another...

If there is a God worth of worship, Islaam sure does not know of it. Instead, it teaches the idolatry of monotheism.

That's a good point. Christians once they accept Christ, are filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit of course is part of the triune Christian God. So in a sense they have God within them, providing guidance and wisdom. It is of course only Christians that have this special and unique relationship with God. So if you ever wondered why posts from Christians seem to be consistently more enlightened than our meagre offerings....

Ah! I am not one to think that Christians are so favored. I can only assume that neither would their God, if he existed.

I suppose grandiose religious beliefs are not just isolated to Hindus who have attained Moksha....I probably have a few too.

Belief is not a valid goal, nor an advantage in the religious sense.

 

[Muffled]

The Qur'an or the Gospels: Which is more authentic?

In other words what is a more authentic representation of the actual words Muhammad or Jesus really spoke? Authenticity (for this thread) is not to be confused with whether or not Muhammad or Jesus were who they claimed to be. We are simply considering to what extent the Qur'an reflects what Muhammad actually taught or the Gospels reflect Christ's true teachings.

What are your reasons?

I believe the unauthorized words of Muhammad in the Hadiths bring into question whether some of that might have happened with the Qu'ran as well.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Qur'an or the Gospels: Which is more authentic?

In other words what is a more authentic representation of the actual words Muhammad or Jesus really spoke? Authenticity (for this thread) is not to be confused with whether or not Muhammad or Jesus were who they claimed to be. We are simply considering to what extent the Qur'an reflects what Muhammad actually taught or the Gospels reflect Christ's true teachings.

What are your reasons?

Quran not only reflects the correct teachings of Muhammad revealed on him by G-d but also the correct and core teachings of Jesus and his life account.

Regards

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I appreciate your input into this thread. The title may have been worded a less ambiguously as clear some will have a major aversion to associating authenticity to Islam. Perhaps the question would be better phrased 'To what extend did the Qur'an and Gospels reflect the original Teachings of Muhammad and Christ respectively?'



Once I've finished studying Islam, I do intend to examine Buddhism and Hinduism more closely. I don't see the Abrahamic Faiths as being about blind, impotent submission at all, but that can be a danger with any religion whether Abrahamic or from Asia.



It doesn't bother me in the slightest about the polling, but it does concern me the lack of participation from Muslims. Where are they? They form a quarter of the worlds population yet they are poorly represented on this forum.

Islam arouses strong feelings in many people as clearly it does for you. I'm not a Muslim of course and my background before becoming a Baha'i was Christian. However, there is an urgent need IMHO to better understand Islam and build bridges of mutual tolerance and understanding. I had thought this religious forum had those goals in mind or am I mistaken?

Why would they want to waste their time on a board where their religion is constantly maligned and insulted by hateful remarks, including by staff members? RF is not a welcoming place for Muslims.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why would they want to waste their time on a board where their religion is constantly maligned and insulted by hateful remarks, including by staff members? RF is not a welcoming place for Muslims.

Muslims are poorly represented here on RF. There's a lot of prejudice for certain. I see it as being an opportunity and challenge to educate and create the kinds of discussions that might help develop a better understanding of who Muhammad was for those who are interested. This thread was the 7th of a series on Islam (see below) that seemed to go OK. Through educating myself in this way I've become a more adept at discussing Islam. Hopefully in time more Muslims will feel more comfortable on RF and want to join.

Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

What are the Key Theological Differences between Islam and Christianity Regarding Concepts of God

Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

The Islamic Golden Age - Origins and Influences

Can theological difference between the Gospels and the Qur'an be resolved?

To what extent did Muhammad meet the Messianic Requirements of Judaism and Christianity?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Muslims are poorly represented here on RF. There's a lot of prejudice for certain. I see it as being an opportunity and challenge to educate and create the kinds of discussions that might help develop a better understanding of who Muhammad was for those who are interested. This thread was the 7th of a series on Islam (see below) that seemed to go OK. Through educating myself in this way I've become a more adept at discussing Islam. Hopefully in time more Muslims will feel more comfortable on RF and want to join.

Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

What are the Key Theological Differences between Islam and Christianity Regarding Concepts of God

Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

The Islamic Golden Age - Origins and Influences

Can theological difference between the Gospels and the Qur'an be resolved?

To what extent did Muhammad meet the Messianic Requirements of Judaism and Christianity?

It's a good thing to do. These discussions are needed. I just get so frustrated because I see the hatred, bigotry and ignorance so often and it gets a pass. We've lost almost all of our regular Muslim posters although a few drop in once in a while. I will try to help, too. Islam is the religion I feel closest to and I almost converted last year. I'm studying and considering it again. People get all worried and try to warn me away from it like I'm thinking of joining a criminal gang.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Abrahamic Faiths do place emphasis on what their respective Founders actually taught, so this thread explores how well those Teachings are reflected in Sacred scripture. Clearly the Dharmic Faiths don’t have the same degree of concern for textural criticism with regards what Buddha, Krishna or whoever else taught.

The Gospels were probably written by second or third generation Christians whose concern was to meet the needs of some of the Churches at the time and to encourage the Faithful. They weren’t written as historic accounts of what happened. The resurrection narrative is most likely an adaptation of Paul’s preaching to the Greeks. Christians get themselves in trouble when they insist the Gospels to be written by historians. They weren’t.

The intense antipathy felt towards Islam by some on RF is pretty obvious really and at times acutely felt. We’re all human beings at the end of the day regardless of our beliefs.

Hmmm? What were the "needs" of the Churches when the gospels were written by these second and third generation Christians? From whom did they get their information? Was it written or oral traditions? Were the writers really Luke, Matthew, Mark and John? Baha'is like to say that in the "original", the religion taught the truth about God. But overtime, it got distorted. When was the NT ever not distorted? You're saying that people that knew Jesus and walked with him didn't write the gospels. And they were writing to fit the needs of the Church several decades later? That sounds like you're saying they already took some liberties with the truth to give people what the "needed" to hear. Which, if it wasn't the truth about what really happened, what was it"

No matter how nice Baha'is write about Jesus, everything said about Jesus in the New Testament sounds like Baha'i don't believe any of it.... except the prophecies. They of course, are right on. But, then again, not really. Even they need a special Baha'i interpretation. Like when we were talking about Revelation. The "Lamb" is the Bab. The "two witnesses" are Muhammad and Ali. And, I hope it wasn't the Uthman you said was one those there when the Quran was put together. 'Cause didn't you say the Umayyad dynasty was the evil beasts from Revelation?

So for Fundamental/Evangelical kinds of Christians, or "Bible believing" Christians, the Bible is accurate and not just some kind of ordinary authentic... but it's the authentic Word of God. But, is it? Do Baha'is say that? I'd have to say that somehow and someway, Baha'is do say that? But more and more, it sounds like Baha'is don't really believe that at all. They seem to believe that it was flawed from the beginning. It talks of historical events, but it's not historical? And even the words of Jesus don't mean what they seem to mean. And for 2000 years Christians have misunderstood their true meaning. But now we have the true interpretation from the Baha'is? A true interpretation of things that didn't happen and words that weren't said?

 

[Dawnofhope]

It's a good thing to do. These discussions are needed. I just get so frustrated because I see the hatred, bigotry and ignorance so often and it gets a pass. We've lost almost all of our regular Muslim posters although a few drop in once in a while. I will try to help, too. Islam is the religion I feel closest to and I almost converted last year. I'm studying and considering it again. People get all worried and try to warn me away from it like I'm thinking of joining a criminal gang.

Although I've never been a Muslim, I practice a Faith that came out of Islam and sees Muhammad as being the Messenger of God He claimed to be and the Holy Quran as the authenticated Word of God. We have similar practices with prayer, fasting etc. Epic bearded man has become a defacto Islamic apologist as I have, though of course neither of us would consider ourselves Muslims for different reasons. Its good to know you are close to Islam.

I had a Muslim Malaysian family consult with me yesterday. I practice medicine in a provincial town about 90 minutes North of my home town, two days per week. They are here on a work visa at the meat works as Halal slaughter man. It meant a lot to them to have someone who loved Muhammad and the Quran. We have over 60.000 Muslims in my country (more than 1% of the population) and we've never had problems with terrorism.

We need to ignore the prejudices of those around us. If Islam seems the best religion for you then its good to put yourself around Muslims and those who appreciate Islam.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Quran not only reflects the correct teachings of Muhammad revealed on him by G-d but also the correct and core teachings of Jesus and his life account.

Regards

Its true the Quran addresses key issues where Christianity has strayed. Particularly in regards the divinity of Christ, the trinity, the son-ship of Jesus. However Muslims (not Muhammad) are in error to say the gospel the Christians have is a false gospel. Through both the gospels and the Quran any errors in theology can be corrected. To reject either the Quran or the Gospels is an error in itself.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hmmm? What were the "needs" of the Churches when the gospels were written by these second and third generation Christians? From whom did they get their information? Was it written or oral traditions? Were the writers really Luke, Matthew, Mark and John? Baha'is like to say that in the "original", the religion taught the truth about God. But overtime, it got distorted. When was the NT ever not distorted? You're saying that people that knew Jesus and walked with him didn't write the gospels. And they were writing to fit the needs of the Church several decades later? That sounds like you're saying they already took some liberties with the truth to give people what the "needed" to hear. Which, if it wasn't the truth about what really happened, what was it"

The needs of the church would have been to have a written account of the Teachings and life of Christ. This would have emerged through the stories passed down through the Teachings of the Apostles including Paul. We do not know for certain the identity of any the gospel authors. The narrative provided is more theological than historic. Its a mistake to take it all as literal history as many Christians appreciate. Nor does it really matter, unless we start making outrageous claims like the entire Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

No matter how nice Baha'is write about Jesus, everything said about Jesus in the New Testament sounds like Baha'i don't believe any of it.... except the prophecies. They of course, are right on. But, then again, not really. Even they need a special Baha'i interpretation. Like when we were talking about Revelation. The "Lamb" is the Bab. The "two witnesses" are Muhammad and Ali. And, I hope it wasn't the Uthman you said was one those there when the Quran was put together. 'Cause didn't you say the Umayyad dynasty was the evil beasts from Revelation?

The key theological differences between the Christians and the Baha'is are the Divinity of Christ and the exclusivity of Christ. Terms such as resurrection, return, salvation, heaven, hell and Satan must be seen metaphysically, not literally.

The book of Daniel and Revelation can be seen to meet historic events. Most of the book of revelation has happened. Uthman was the third Caliph. He standardised the Quran into the version that's widely available now. He was assassinated well before the Umayyad Caliphate began in 661 AD.

So for Fundamental/Evangelical kinds of Christians, or "Bible believing" Christians, the Bible is accurate and not just some kind of ordinary authentic... but it's the authentic Word of God. But, is it? Do Baha'is say that? I'd have to say that somehow and someway, Baha'is do say that? But more and more, it sounds like Baha'is don't really believe that at all. They seem to believe that it was flawed from the beginning. It talks of historical events, but it's not historical? And even the words of Jesus don't mean what they seem to mean. And for 2000 years Christians have misunderstood their true meaning. But now we have the true interpretation from the Baha'is? A true interpretation of things that didn't happen and words that weren't said?

I know that you don't believe the Christian fundamentalists. Why not study what some of the modern Bible scholars are saying if you don't believe the Baha'is?

 

[England my lionheart]

The Qur'an or the Gospels: Which is more authentic?

In other words what is a more authentic representation of the actual words Muhammad or Jesus really spoke? Authenticity (for this thread) is not to be confused with whether or not Muhammad or Jesus were who they claimed to be. We are simply considering to what extent the Qur'an reflects what Muhammad actually taught or the Gospels reflect Christ's true teachings.

What are your reasons?

I voted for the quran being the author of the quran although Its easy to understand why people think he plagiarised the other scriptures.

To see that the quran is the authentic teachings of muhammed one needs to separate the verses written in mecca and those written in medina/yathrib.

The medina verses were more violent with more rules, this would be important because of the growing numbers of followers so there would be the need to be clear on things like the share of booty for example or share of inheritance etc.