The Rapture

[javajo]

I believe the hour is getting late. Now it could be months or years or a decade or two, but the stage is set. Note the 4 kingdoms described in Daniel 2 that Jesus will crush all of them. Babylon is Iraq, Persia is Iran, Greece (not modern day Greece) was and is Syria, and Turkey is Roman (Constantinople was main center for centuries, esp during Jewish persecution. All 4 countries play major roles now in the Middle East and all 4 will be taken out according to this prophecy. In the end, all kingdoms of history will fade and Christ's Kingdom will last forever.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Daniel [2 v 44; 7 vs 13,14] God's kingdom will bring an end to all other kingdoms........

We are at the 'time of the toes' of the huge image of Daniel chapter two.
Perhaps more like the 'time of the toenails' !

 

[javajo]

Daniel [2 v 44; 7 vs 13,14] God's kingdom will bring an end to all other kingdoms........

We are at the 'time of the toes' of the huge image of Daniel chapter two.
Perhaps more like the 'time of the toenails' !

On that I can agree. While we in the west have speculated for some time that the Antichrist would come from the EU or the western leg of the Roman empire, now the shift has gone to the eastern leg, so perhaps Turkey or some say Iran. With the Arab Spring and all the uprisings, it is easy to see an antichrist arise to take control of those nations and lead them in the Gog-Magog war of Ezekiel 39 against Israel. The countries are all aligned just as the Bible foretold. For those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, that is a blessed hope indeed. The Bible tells us to wait patiently and earnestly for Jesus Christ who will keep us from, out of that time of trouble.

 

[Muffled]

Daniel [2 v 44; 7 vs 13,14] God's kingdom will bring an end to all other kingdoms........

We are at the 'time of the toes' of the huge image of Daniel chapter two.
Perhaps more like the 'time of the toenails' !

The toes are gone. The beast of Revelations is coming into being. It more or less exists now but is not united in purpose yet.

 

[Muffled]

On that I can agree. While we in the west have speculated for some time that the Antichrist would come from the EU or the western leg of the Roman empire, now the shift has gone to the eastern leg, so perhaps Turkey or some say Iran. With the Arab Spring and all the uprisings, it is easy to see an antichrist arise to take control of those nations and lead them in the Gog-Magog war of Ezekiel 39 against Israel. The countries are all aligned just as the Bible foretold. For those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, that is a blessed hope indeed. The Bible tells us to wait patiently and earnestly for Jesus Christ who will keep us from, out of that time of trouble.

Gog and magog are east and west. The Middle East considers themselves part of the East and Israel, the USA and Europe as West.

 

[Muffled]

LOL...not you again. Is the "Creed" in the Bible or not?

Duh! I own this thread.

The essence is but not the substance. A creed is simply a statement of belief. The Nicene Creeed states beliefs agreed upon at the First Ecumenical Council. I wasn't there so I don't know what Bible verses they were using but I do know that the Creed reflects Biblical truth.

However if you want to arrgue this start a Nicene thread and stop being off-topic.

 

[javajo]

Gog and magog are east and west. The Middle East considers themselves part of the East and Israel, the USA and Europe as West.

ON that, I don't agree. Gog and Magog are to the North of Israel, around the area of Turkey. Some have thought it may include Russia, but it is for sure just North of Israel, not east and west. That's not to say the west won't play a role, but I do not believe they will be on the side of Gog and Magog.

 

[jtartar]

Yes, finally somebody gets it.



Verse 5 of Rev 20 is a spurious verse, it shouldnt be there and it doesnt fit or match any other scripture. Where esle does it say that there is a first then a second resurrection. There are no second or third witness for that Rev 20:5 verse therefore it is spurious because it also doesnt show up in the earliest complete manuscripts. All the resurrection verses say that there is A RESURRECTION. I agree with you when you say that the ones who are "changed" will rule with Christ and they will be ruling over the others who were not changed and those who are resurrected to judgment (same resurrection).




You say resurrected to heaven....if they are to rule on earth with Christ then where is heaven? Not many know what heaven is so im just curious what you may say.



The 144,000 [which is a symbol and not literally 144,000] are the ones who came out of great tribulation. Notice how the meaning changes when one sticks to how the scriptures are and dont add "the" in front of great tribulation. There is no "THE" great tribulation. All those who are being called AND chosen now, in this life, are in great tribulation, are put in tribulation, are to go through MUCH tribulation.




Again, those are man made doctrines, first resurrection and general resurrection, this is not scriptural and as for "for some who will not prove worthy of life, so the will receive a resurrection of judgement, while some will receive life, everlasting life on earth" consider this

Ver. 21-22: "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For AS in Adam ALL die, EVEN SO in Christ shall ALL be made alive."
​

Comment: First I want to show you that the word "alive" in this verse is a word that is used with reference to imparting immortality, and not just mortal life. The Greek word is zoopoieo, and it means to give life beyond the grasp of any future death. Notice how it is used in Rom. 8:11, "But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead [Christ was raised to immortality, not back to a mortal life] dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken [zoopoieo] your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwells in you." So clearly God does not give "mortal" life to our "mortal" bodies, seeing that we already have mortal life. No, He imparts IMMORTALITY to us. And this is exactly what Paul tells us in I Cor. 15, "For this corruptible [body] must put on incorruption [spiritual], and this mortal [dying or dead body] must put on IMMORTALITY [Gk: DEATH-LESS-NESS]" (Verse 53). And to whom does Christ grant immortal "zoopoieo" life? Answer: "ALL." The very same "all" who die in Adam are the very same "all" who are given life IN CHRIST.
It is also noteworthy that it is "…IN Christ ALL…" and is not restricted to only, "…ALL IN CHRIST…" as many have tried to twist this verse to mean. They say it is only all those who are "in" Christ. But that is not what this verse says. It says "in Christ ALL." That is the order of words. This verse is not speaking of those just the "all believers" who are said to be "IN Christ." No, this verse is speaking about the very same "in Adam ALL" who die become the very same "in Christ ALL" who are made alive. And although this particular verse does not say that "all" are now "IN Christ," it does most definitely say that "in Christ," the "ALL" shall be shall be "made alive." "Made alive" does not prove they are "in" Christ or that they are "saved," only that they have been given immortal life. Then comes JUDGMENT. But don’t think that therefore there is no Scripture that says they will eventually "ALL" be "IN" Christ, because there is:

"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one ALL [‘things’ is not in original] IN Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even IN HIM" (Eph. 1:10).
​

Christ first raises ALL to mortal life. At a later date He gathers this same ALL into Himself. The "in Christ ALL" (I Cor. 15:22) then becomes the "ALL IN CHRIST" (Eph. 1:10). Every creature in heaven and earth will be ONE IN Christ! I hope you can believe that.

AK4,
First, I want you to stop and think about this one point, because if you see what I am explaining it will make it much easier to understand all the Holy Scriptures.
ALL of the early Christians were to be resurrected to immortal life in heaven the same as Jesus was, Rom 6:4,5, 1Pet 3:18,19, 1Cor 15:51-54, Eph 1:11-14, Rom 8:28-30.
Jesus taught that the Kingdom would belong to a LITTLE FLOCK, Like 12:32. This little Flock would be very little compared to the Great Crowd that would live under those who would be Kings and Priests, and rule as CO- Heirs with Jesus, Rom 8:17, Rev 7:4, Rev 20:4-6. All the ones who go to heaven to be with Jesus are ANOINTED and SEALED with the Holy Spirit, and are ADOPTED by God to become Jesus' BROTHERS, 1Cor 1:21,22, Rom 8:14-17, Gal 4:6,7, Eph 1:5-8, Heb 2:11,12, John 20:17, Matt 25:40.
Now, this brings into question; who will this Little Flock, that are to be Kings and Priests in heaven, rule over??? The ones resurrected by Jesus, John 5:28,29, and the group that come out of the Great Tribulation, Ren 7:14.
You see, God never changed His purpose to have the earth filled with perfect people, living in a paradise earth, Gen 1:26-28, Isa 45:18, Ps 37:29. When God states His purpose it is certain to be fulfilled, Isa 55:11, 14:24.

 

[455SinceFriday]

I personally think each and everyone of us is the Beast, and each and everyone of us is the antichrist.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The toes are gone. The beast of Revelations is coming into being. It more or less exists now but is not united in purpose yet.

How can the huge statue's 'toes' of Daniel [2 vs 42-44] be gone when the political statue
[of world powers] is still standing ? The kingdom 'stone' did not yet strike it. Vs 34,35

The beasts of Revelation are political in nature. The 8th king [Rev. 17 v 11] is pictorial of all earth's kingdoms in opposition to Christ.

In the past God used the political world as his 'long arm of the law' to carry out His justice.
In Ezekiel's day God used the Babylonian military forces against apostate Israel for 70 years of captivity.
In 1st-century Christianity, God used the Roman armies against apostate Jerusalem in the year 70 CE/AD.
With Backing today, the United Nations can be united in purpose to be God's modern-day 'long arm of the law' used to turn on the world's religions who have run afoul playing false to God and his Word.

 

[Muffled]

ON that, I don't agree. Gog and Magog are to the North of Israel, around the area of Turkey. Some have thought it may include Russia, but it is for sure just North of Israel, not east and west. That's not to say the west won't play a role, but I do not believe they will be on the side of Gog and Magog.

Re 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Gog and Magog are described as the four corners here but it is a dichotomy not a quartochomony. IN this case it would represent two dichotomies: East-west and North-South.

This may still be reasonable as a North-South dichotomy with Turkey in the north and Israel in the south. However a specific instance of a dichotomy does not necessarily change the meaning of the general dichotomy.

 

[Muffled]

Daniel [2 v 44; 7 vs 13,14] God's kingdom will bring an end to all other kingdoms........

We are at the 'time of the toes' of the huge image of Daniel chapter two.
Perhaps more like the 'time of the toenails' !

That is historically innacurate. There is nothing left of the Roman or Byzantine empires.

 

[cataway]

That is historically innacurate. There is nothing left of the Roman or Byzantine empires.

Roman empire was higher up on the leg

 

[javajo]

Re 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Gog and Magog are described as the four corners here but it is a dichotomy not a quartochomony. IN this case it would represent two dichotomies: East-west and North-South.

This may still be reasonable as a North-South dichotomy with Turkey in the north and Israel in the south. However a specific instance of a dichotomy does not necessarily change the meaning of the general dichotomy.

We have no disagreement as I think we are discussing two different events. Rev. 20 is after the thousand year reign when Satan is loosed for a time and deceives that nations and those he deceives come from all over the earth to go against Jerusalem. The one I am referring to is from Ezekiel 38 and he refers to some of these as coming down from the north against Israel after she has become a nation again and it names the countries involved. The phrase God and Magog are used in both events, although they are not the same event. One happens before the thousand year reign, the other, at the end of it.

 

[javajo]

That is historically innacurate. There is nothing left of the Roman or Byzantine empires.

Roman empire was higher up on the leg

Uravip has that right. While the Roman empire, the legs of iron is no more, what I believe it refers to is the next empire, a type of a revived Roman empire in that the legs of iron, very strong, will be the toes of iron and clay, an empire part strong and part weak. Each kingdom is successive, first Nebuchadnezzar's head of gold, the Babylonians, then Darius' breast of silver, the Me do-persian empire, then Alexander the Great's Greek empire, the belly of bronze, then the Roman empire, the legs of iron. There will be one more kingdom, the toes of iron and clay, ruled by the Antichrist, before the Lord Jesus Christ ultimately conquers as the stone that was cut out but not with hands that destroys the whole image of gold, silver, brass, iron and iron and clay. In a sense all those kingdoms are back. But I think already posted the details of that a while back.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Uravip has that right. While the Roman empire, the legs of iron is no more, what I believe it refers to is the next empire, a type of a revived Roman empire in that the legs of iron, very strong, will be the toes of iron and clay, an empire part strong and part weak. Each kingdom is successive, first Nebuchadnezzar's head of gold, the Babylonians, then Darius' breast of silver, the Me do-persian empire, then Alexander the Great's Greek empire, the belly of bronze, then the Roman empire, the legs of iron. There will be one more kingdom, the toes of iron and clay, ruled by the Antichrist, before the Lord Jesus Christ ultimately conquers as the stone that was cut out but not with hands that destroys the whole image of gold, silver, brass, iron and iron and clay. In a sense all those kingdoms are back. But I think already posted the details of that a while back.

The kingdom to follow in the legs of iron [Roman} history shows to the British empire and especially since WWI and WWII there is an Anglo-American mixture in the fact that the iron becomes mixed with clay. Partly strong [iron] and partly weak [clay].
The clay would be the people. The people weaken the iron's rule.
That is why the statue's feet and toes can not properly support the huge statue.
The statue does not collapse on its own, but the kingdom 'stone' [Dan.2 vs34,35,45]
hits the feet, and this present system that is on its 'last legs' so to speak, is finished off by the kingdom stone causing the statue's collapse. We are at the time of the toenails!

The statue does Not return, and according to verse 44 only God's kingdom [in the hands of Christ Jesus] will consume all of the statue's kingdoms [ world powers ] and only God's Messianic kingdom rule will stand. Stand forever because God's kingdom [thy kingdom come] is the only solution for our need for good and lasting government.
We are at the threshold of Jesus' coming 1000-year reign over earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

We have no disagreement as I think we are discussing two different events. Rev. 20 is after the thousand year reign when Satan is loosed for a time and deceives that nations and those he deceives come from all over the earth to go against Jerusalem. The one I am referring to is from Ezekiel 38 and he refers to some of these as coming down from the north against Israel after she has become a nation again and it names the countries involved. The phrase God and Magog are used in both events, although they are not the same event. One happens before the thousand year reign, the other, at the end of it.

Since Pentecost the 'Israel of God' is Not fleshly national Israel but 'spiritual Israel'.
Since Pentecost Jerusalem is Not earthly Jerusalem but now 'heavenly Jerusalem'.
The fleshly Jewish 'house of worship' [temple] was abandoned- Matthew 23 v 38

-Galatians 4 v 26; Romans 2 vs 28,29; 1st Peter 2 vs 5,9

Please notice chapter 20 of Revelation starts out with the abyssing of Satan.
So, Rev. 20 is Not just after the 1000-year reign of Christ, but including both.
Verses 7 to 11 deal with 'after'. The other verses are 'during' the thousand years.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That is historically innacurate. There is nothing left of the Roman or Byzantine empires.

The iron legs lead to, or break down to feet and toes mixed of iron and clay.
From the iron: developed the British empire, and especially since the world wars there is an Angelo-American connection. From the 'seven kings' [world powers -Rev. 17 v 10 ] develops an 8th king [verse 11]. That 8th king proves to be the United Nations.

Five kings or world powers are mentioned in Daniel, and in John's day [1st-century] the sixth is named as Rome [legs of iron] leaving the seventh king [power] un-named.
That '8th king' [scarlet beast] does unite itself with the seven while it springs from them.
With backing today the United Nations can be strengthened to God's long arm of the law to be used to go against the world's religious systems [ systems teaching Babylonian-like religious myths as Scripture] and have run afoul playing false to God and his Word.
- Rev. 17 v 17

 

[javajo]

The kingdom to follow in the legs of iron [Roman} history shows to the British empire and especially since WWI and WWII there is an Anglo-American mixture in the fact that the iron becomes mixed with clay. Partly strong [iron] and partly weak [clay].
The clay would be the people. The people weaken the iron's rule.
That is why the statue's feet and toes can not properly support the huge statue.
The statue does not collapse on its own, but the kingdom 'stone' [Dan.2 vs34,35,45]
hits the feet, and this present system that is on its 'last legs' so to speak, is finished off by the kingdom stone causing the statue's collapse. We are at the time of the toenails!

The statue does Not return, and according to verse 44 only God's kingdom [in the hands of Christ Jesus] will consume all of the statue's kingdoms [ world powers ] and only God's Messianic kingdom rule will stand. Stand forever because God's kingdom [thy kingdom come] is the only solution for our need for good and lasting government.
We are at the threshold of Jesus' coming 1000-year reign over earth.

Since Pentecost the 'Israel of God' is Not fleshly national Israel but 'spiritual Israel'.
Since Pentecost Jerusalem is Not earthly Jerusalem but now 'heavenly Jerusalem'.
The fleshly Jewish 'house of worship' [temple] was abandoned- Matthew 23 v 38

-Galatians 4 v 26; Romans 2 vs 28,29; 1st Peter 2 vs 5,9

Please notice chapter 20 of Revelation starts out with the abyssing of Satan.
So, Rev. 20 is Not just after the 1000-year reign of Christ, but including both.
Verses 7 to 11 deal with 'after'. The other verses are 'during' the thousand years.

We see some of these things a little differently and some the same, either way, thanks for your input.

 

[Muffled]

Uravip has that right. While the Roman empire, the legs of iron is no more, what I believe it refers to is the next empire, a type of a revived Roman empire in that the legs of iron, very strong, will be the toes of iron and clay, an empire part strong and part weak. Each kingdom is successive, first Nebuchadnezzar's head of gold, the Babylonians, then Darius' breast of silver, the Me do-persian empire, then Alexander the Great's Greek empire, the belly of bronze, then the Roman empire, the legs of iron. There will be one more kingdom, the toes of iron and clay, ruled by the Antichrist, before the Lord Jesus Christ ultimately conquers as the stone that was cut out but not with hands that destroys the whole image of gold, silver, brass, iron and iron and clay. In a sense all those kingdoms are back. But I think already posted the details of that a while back.

This is highly speculative and not likely since the prophecy has alrady been fulfilled in the Byzantine empire. The Byzantine empire is represented as iron and clay for these rasons:

1. The iron represents the fact that the Byzantine empire derives from the Roman Empire. However this can be seen in two ways: the aforementioned and also the remnants of the Roman empire which is still associated with the Byzantine Empire. The toes signify that these empires are often divided up into pieces (toes).

2. The clay represents the Mesopotamian influence known for its pottery and brick building. The Byzantine empire found its rulers increasingly married into Armenian royalty (since both kingdoms were Christian at the time). Also many of the Byzantine rulers were of Greek heritage and my feeling is that the Greeks had more in common with their eastern neighbors than their western neighbors.