The Real Question

[lilithu]

People spend a lot of time arguing over whether God exists or not, with certain atheists trying to prove God does not and certain theists trying to prove that God does exist.

Not only is this logically impossible, but it misses the most important question about God. Seriously, why do you care whether your neighbor believes or doesn't believe? The thing that should most concern you is how your neighbor behaves toward others because that is what is going to directly affect you. Therefore the fundamental question should not be over existence; it should be (given the presumed existence of God): What does one believe God stands for?

Even for atheists who think all this God-stuff is made up, surely you can see that the concepts have powerful influences on behavior. What one believes about God's values strongly influences the values that one will uphold oneself. If one believes in a God that "saves" believers and condemns unbelievers then one is likely to view humans that way oneself. And one will also vote in a way that reflects that. If one believes in a God that loves everyone, then one will more likely try to emulate that oneself. And one will also vote in a way that reflects that. etc. Religion is a powerful motivator for both good and ill. And despite what some think it's not going away. So the question isn't "Is there a God?" The real question is "What does God stand for in this world?"

 

[+Xausted]

People spend a lot of time arguing over whether God exists or not, with certain atheists trying to prove God does not and certain theists trying to prove that God does exist.

Not only is this logically impossible, but it misses the most important question about God. Seriously, why do you care whether your neighbor believes or doesn't believe? The thing that should most concern you is how your neighbor behaves toward others because that is what is going to directly affect you. Therefore the fundamental question should not be over existence; it should be (given the presumed existence of God): What does one believe God stands for?

Even for atheists who think all this God-stuff is made up, surely you can see that the concepts have powerful influences on behavior. What one believes about God's values strongly influences the values that one will uphold oneself. If one believes in a God that "saves" believers and condemns unbelievers then one is likely to view humans that way oneself. And one will also vote in a way that reflects that. If one believes in a God that loves everyone, then one will more likely try to emulate that oneself. And one will also vote in a way that reflects that. etc. Religion is a powerful motivator for both good and ill. And despite what some think it's not going away. So the question isn't "Is there a God?" The real question is "What does God stand for in this world?"

I think the question should be
What does God ideally stand for in this world?
otherwise you will have people giving very negative interpratations to your question

 

[lilithu]

I think the question should be
What does God ideally stand for in this world?
otherwise you will have people giving very negative interpratations to your question

I agree that there will be people who will give very negative interpretations. But part of my argument is that's self-defeating behavior. I suppose that if all one wants is to feel better about oneself by putting others down, then one can paint a very negative picture of God and say "That's what other people worship." But if one truly wants to make the world a better place, one should be FRAMING it in the way one wants it to be. Pointing out the negative only reinforces the negative.

 

[Storm]

I could quibble about the phrasing, but I won't.

For me, the 7 Principles sum it up nicely, with a huge emphasis on the seventh:

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

• The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
• Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
• Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
• The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
• The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
• Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

 

[fantome profane]

“God” is no different than any other symbol, it stands for what human beings decide it stands for. And whatever it stands for, it is as you say, a powerful concept.

One thing that “God” very often stands for (among many other things) is ultimate authority. Whatever values humans attribute to “God”, once attributed become unquestionable. Once a human attributes a human idea to “God” that human idea suddenly becomes divine. And then what human reason, logic, evidence, understanding can possibly argue against a divine idea. Even human emotion, love, compassion, or human intuition become powerless when matched against what has become “what God stands for”. This is what makes it such a powerful concept. And like anything that is that powerful it can be very dangerous.

It is true that people often attribute things like universal love and compassion to “God”. But I would suggest that these ideas are so powerful on their own that they don’t need to be “elevated” to divine status, they are already there without “God”. Compare these ideas with the petty concepts of judgment, discrimination, selfishness, bigotry. How can such little ideas compete with universal love? The answer is “God”. Once these little ideas are attributed to “God” they gain the status that I believe love and compassion already have without “God”.

 

[Kungfuzed]

Would the answer be any different if someone were to ask "What do I stand for?" rather than "What does God stand for?".

 

[michel]

Would the answer be any different if someone were to ask "What do I stand for?" rather than "What does God stand for?".

Only to a secularist!

 

[Storm]

Would the answer be any different if someone were to ask "What do I stand for?" rather than "What does God stand for?".

It would be for me.

 

[fantome profane]

Would the answer be any different if someone were to ask "What do I stand for?" rather than "What does God stand for?".

The difference is that you will be required to take personal responsibility for what you stand for. Nobody is responsible for what “God” stands for, not even “God”.

 

[lilithu]

Would the answer be any different if someone were to ask "What do I stand for?" rather than "What does God stand for?".

It does to the believer.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Would the answer be any different if someone were to ask "What do I stand for?" rather than "What does God stand for?".

To me they are the same, but they are also different. All depends on your self.

 

[lilithu]

“God” is no different than any other symbol, it stands for what human beings decide it stands for. And whatever it stands for, it is as you say, a powerful concept.

One thing that “God” very often stands for (among many other things) is ultimate authority. Whatever values humans attribute to “God”, once attributed become unquestionable. Once a human attributes a human idea to “God” that human idea suddenly becomes divine. And then what human reason, logic, evidence, understanding can possibly argue against a divine idea. Even human emotion, love, compassion, or human intuition become powerless when matched against what has become “what God stands for”. This is what makes it such a powerful concept. And like anything that is that powerful it can be very dangerous.

It is true that people often attribute things like universal love and compassion to “God”. But I would suggest that these ideas are so powerful on their own that they don’t need to be “elevated” to divine status, they are already there without “God”. Compare these ideas with the petty concepts of judgment, discrimination, selfishness, bigotry. How can such little ideas compete with universal love? The answer is “God”. Once these little ideas are attributed to “God” they gain the status that I believe love and compassion already have without “God”.

So... in your opinion, when "God" is used to justify discrimination, selfishness, bigotry... that's a powerful (albeit unwanted) weapon against Love, but when "God" is used to justify love, that's merely unnecessary. :sarcastic

My point is that for as long as people continue to equate God with jealousy, vengeance, etc, the power of the concept continues.

 

[fantome profane]

So... in your opinion, when "God" is used to justify discrimination, selfishness, bigotry... that's a powerful (albeit unwanted) weapon against Love, but when "God" is used to justify love, that's merely unnecessary. :sarcastic

Yes, I don’t believe that love requires justification. Love is the justification for our actions.

My point is that for as long as people continue to equate God with jealousy, vengeance, etc, the power of the concept continues.

I agree.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

So the question isn't "Is there a God?" The real question is "What does God stand for in this world?"

This is a question I've posed a few times, only a little differently. "We know existence exists, so the real question isn't whether God exists, but the nature of Ultimate Reality."

To me, God stands for that what is "primal in all domains: deified or undeified, personal or impersonal, actual or potential, finite or infinite. No thing or being, no relativity or finality, exists except in direct or indirect relation to, and dependence on, the primacy of [this,] the First Source and Center." (UB)

Just consider the implications! :angel2:

 

[NIX]

Would the answer be any different if someone were to ask "What do I stand for?" rather than "What does God stand for?".

In the final analysis, probably no.
Those who follow the God of a religion generally (choose to) stand for the very same beliefs/ideals they are taught (their) God stands for.
And
Those who have their own personal understanding of God genarally understand (their) God as standing for the very same things they do themselves.

The answer wouldn't be any different for MOST.

:islam:Nyx

 

[Yerda]

Interesting topic. I think you've made a valuable point, Lil.

Even for atheists who think all this God-stuff is made up, surely you can see that the concepts have powerful influences on behavior.

Yes, but when non-theists suggest this can be a bad thing we are often berated.

In any case, what does God stand for, Lilith?

 

[lilithu]

Yes, but when non-theists suggest this can be a bad thing we are often berated.

I can only speak for myself; I would not berate unless the bad were emphasized above the good. Certainly I've had no problems with statements you make about God/religion. Some other non-theists otoh...

In any case, what does God stand for, Lilith?

Love and Justice.

 

[Yerda]

Love and Justice.

In light of who I'm talking to I'm going to assume you don't mean justice as in punishment. What is justice?

Is the love between people (or that should exist between them), between you and God, or both?

 

[Kungfuzed]

Would the answer be any different if someone were to ask "What do I stand for?" rather than "What does God stand for?".

What I mean is that the image of God that we create is a reflection of who we are inside.

People seek out the God that most aligns with their own personal beliefs, or they might try to change their beliefs to align with the God that they are raised with. God created man in his own image, or the other way around depending on whether you're a theist or atheist. Either way, the believer and the God should be quite similar.

 

[lilithu]

In light of who I'm talking to I'm going to assume you don't mean justice as in punishment. What is justice?

Not punishment, no. But there are consequences to one's actions. Justice is treating people equitably.

Here's an example: A couple of years ago I hear Bishop Robinson speak. Robinson is the first openly gay Episcopal bishop. Someone asked him how he responded when people told him that he was going to hell for being gay. He said, "God is on the side of the oppressed." It was such a powerful statement, I got chills.

Mind you, that doesn't mean that God sides with the oppressed and the oppressors are thrown in hell. Because all that would do is flip it and create another "oppressed." It means that whenever there is injustice, unfair treatment, God moves to make things more fair. The moral arc of the universe is long but it bends towards justice.

Is the love between people (or that should exist between them), between you and God, or both?

Both. You should keep in mind that in my belief system, we are part of God. When humans love each other, they are loving God.

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

But I also believe that it is God's love - the continual giving of Godself - that sustains creation. Is the basis for all existence.