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the reality warning: contains disturbing pictures

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
In most cases, if you don't have a voice you have no rights. :(
I'd say if you have no form of brain and are essentially a parasitic bundle of developing tissues then you have no rights.

There really is no difference between removing the organism in pic 1 and removing an appendix, both are unwanted tissues that cannot survive outside the greater organism, and neither are independent, thinking individuals.
That may sound harsh, but it is true. You wouldn't apply the same right to life to a chimpanzee and a tapeworm, so we can't really compare a fully developed cognitive human being with a bunch of differentiated human cells.
 

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
To me it is most logical not to allow abortions when the fetus becomes conscious. That is when the fetus becomes a person and an individual. Before the body can feel, I see no difference between it and a dead body.
 

BFD_Zayl

Well-Known Member
I myself do not see much of a problem with abortion, most of it is done before the fetus is 100% "self aware" (for lack of a better term) the fetus does not know life, because techically it is not its own intelligent life yet. I've been asked once (By a prolifer) if I would rather take a fresh fetus, and smash it underfoot. or kill a man. now, in my eyes I would rather smash the fetus, why? because the man has a full and rich life, he knows and loves his family. he goes about his day to day things much like I do. I know its a bad analogy, but its the only question I have been asked in person.
 

jimbob

The Celt
BFD, whoever asked you that question, well, they asked a stupid question.

okay, it seems a lot of you have a problem with this being in a debate forum. i'm sorry. i wasn't really sure where to put it, and i saw a bunch of other abortion topics in the forum. i figured i'd just put it here. i'm not debating.

and whoever said a page or two back that those pictures aren't reality.........what? do i need to actually present pictures of every single abortion, videos of abortions and doctors testamonies? please define your version of "reality" because those pictures pretty much show exactly the reality i was talking about.

another problem folks on here are having is the whole idea that i'm trying to "shock and awe" if you people had actually taken the time to read my posts, you'd realize (AE already knows cause we were chatting in the earlier posts about this, so AE doens't have to read this ;) ) that i didn't do this to shock and awe anyone. i didn't put this up to amaze anyone into changing their minds. i didn't put this up to cause hard feelings, controversy, or anger. i put this up so that PEOPLE COULD PERHAPS HAVE AN IMAGE IN THEIR HEAD THE NEXT TIME THEY CALLED A BABY AN "IT". that's it. it wasn't for my personal gratifications. it wasn't for my religious views. it wasn't to change anyones mind. it was to bring a little more respect to the fetuses who had a chance at life.
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
*MOD POST*

I've converted the images to links because there was a good bit of concern over their graphic nature. You can still view the images if you like, but you've got to click on the link now. Hopefully, this is a happy medium.
 

bflydad

Member
Jimbo,

First, I want to say thank you for putting the pictures in their own thread rather than embedded in an existing discussion. This way I had a choice and a chance to consider before looking at the pictures (and I did spend a while thinking about it). The other way I would have been angry about shock-and-awe. For me, it was the first time seeing pictures of aborted fetuses.

With all that said, I am still in favor of choice (perhaps, you believe I am now making a more informed decision). I am also against abortions. I guess that is the part of all of this that I don't get. I have my own beliefs but I do not have the right to impose them on others. I am a man. I have never been pregnant. I have no idea how it would feel to have a life inside of me or how difficult it would be to make a decision to terminate it, especially if I was 12 or 13.

I have heard stories about women who have had abortions at a young age and then speak out years later saying that they regret it. I wonder if at the time they are speaking that they are high school graduates or college graduates or in a healthy, happy relationship. We can never know what the road untraveled would have been. How that girl's life would have turned out or how the child's life would have turned out. It is terrible that teenagers are put in that position. I have never been there and I will not choose to judge any woman who has been there.

Most importantly I will not choose to legislate it. For the moment, put the moral piece aside. If abortion is illegal, those teenagers who come from affluent homes will still get abortions. If abortion is illegal, some poor teenagers will be using coat hangars and never be able to have children later in life. If abortion is illegal, we as a society will need to completely overhaul our method of government care of children.

I'm not suggesting that the moral piece is not relevant, only that there are practical issues to consider as well. From a moral perspective, it is a question of considering a woman's personal rights vice the rights of an unborn fetus. If we decide that abortion is illegal and a woman must carry a baby to term, we are in effect placing her in prison for 9 months for a crime that only women can be guilty of. Along these lines, I would expect that the state would force health care on the mother - if we can force her to carry the baby to term, I expect the state would also force her to take care of herself as it decides is proper as well

This is probably off-topic but I'm curious because I've never heard anything about this... if it could be proven that a baby will be healthier if he/she is breast-fed, does anyone think the state should have a legal right to force a mother to breastfeed?
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I believe why some folks are upset is because they want to call it a choice or a termination. They want to sanitize and trivialize just exactly what they are advocating.

It is sad that some individuals think that their life is more important than their child's life. I would lay my life down without thought to save my child.

It saddens me that some people are so self involved that a child in their life is looked upon as a burden and not a blessing.
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
Some of us don't want any children because we wouldn't lay our lives down. Wouldn't it be best for us to not have children?
 
M

Majikthise

Guest
I believe why some folks are upset is because they want to call it a choice or a termination. They want to sanitize and trivialize just exactly what they are advocating.

It is sad that some individuals think that their life is more important than their child's life. I would lay my life down without thought to save my child.

It saddens me that some people are so self involved that a child in their life is looked upon as a burden and not a blessing.

I'm glad you said some folks, because I have two children and would endure torture and death for them. I do not expect anyone else to do this in my place, except my wife. I do not trivialize abortion, I just believe it is not my call as to what other people do in their own personal situation. Trivializing it is making a theological claim against it.
Anyone who believes religion is not a factor in the banning of abortion rights is deluding themselves. Some people can see through the "I never said it had anything to do with my religion", arguement.
I saddens me that some people are so self involved in their religious beliefs that they refuse medical treatment for their children because they believe the power of prayer will heal them.
Religious beliefs weigh heavily in these arguements and I wish we could just get that out in the open.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I'm glad you said some folks, because I have two children and would endure torture and death for them. I do not expect anyone else to do this in my place, except my wife. I do not trivialize abortion, I just believe it is not my call as to what other people do in their own personal situation. Trivializing it is making a theological claim against it.
Anyone who believes religion is not a factor in the banning of abortion rights is deluding themselves. Some people can see through the "I never said it had anything to do with my religion", arguement.
I saddens me that some people are so self involved in their religious beliefs that they refuse medical treatment for their children because they believe the power of prayer will heal them.
Religious beliefs weigh heavily in these arguements and I wish we could just get that out in the open.


Your wish is my command, Yes it is about my religious beliefs and I will not go into detail what I believe the fate of these actions are.

That said, it is no different saying it is a couple of cells either. I admit where I am coming from. Trying to trivialise or sanitize what is happening is just as biased.
 

jimbob

The Celt
........listen up peeps. ya'lls are making me out as a guy set on changing everyones mind. believe me, i understand your minds ain't going to be changed, cause if they were going to, they'd have done so long before i came around. and majik, please don't doubt what i say. due to my religion (here, happy? i'm doing something cause my religion tells me to) i try my best not to lie. as such, don't accuse my of lieing. it's demeaning to me, and i lose respect for you as such.

as a "person" believe a fetus is a human with a possiblity, not a possible human. as such, i posted this to perhaps give them some dignity in the discussions here. as a Catholic, i believe that a fetus has a right to life. see the difference?


i'm hoping a mod might please delete this topic. the threads aren't actually making any progress, people are attacking each other (however subtly). I had no intention of this. the posts are all pretty much the same, and i'm not sure my intent has been well understood or recieved.
 
M

Majikthise

Guest
Good.
Then we know rational scientific explanation and real life experience are next to useless when dealing with purely emotional responses.
I'm amazed we got past demonic possessions and started treating people for mental illness.

(to previous post, JB)
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Good.
Then we know rational scientific explanation and real life experience are next to useless when dealing with purely emotional responses.
I'm amazed we got past demonic possessions and started treating people for mental illness.

You are probably the most interesting person I have met on this forum. We agree on many things and disagree on others. Most people here agree or disagree with me exclusively.
 
M

Majikthise

Guest
You are probably the most interesting person I have met on this forum. We agree on many things and disagree on others. Most people here agree or disagree with me exclusively.

My friends out here say the same kind of thing. We hash it out over something one minute and complain in unison about something else the next. There are some other threads I've been following that I totally agree with you on.
Got to get to bed now. Give em heck!

Dan:D
 

kiwimac

Brother Napalm of God's Love
I subscribe to the ancient Jewish thought on this matter. Until the foetus can live on its own, it is of no more or less importance than any other 'organ.' Only once the brain begins to function post 20 weeks can we begin to see the foetus as a human being until then it is a human being in potentio.
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
That said, it is no different saying it is a couple of cells either. I admit where I am coming from. Trying to trivialise or sanitize what is happening is just as biased.
Okay, step outside of your perspective for a moment. You see it as trivializing, but we see your feelings about the issue as overreacting. Which is right? Obviously neither. We need to at least admit that we're all speaking what we honestly believe to be the truth. I don't think people here are trying to manipulate information to hurt the other team.

You are probably the most interesting person I have met on this forum. We agree on many things and disagree on others. Most people here agree or disagree with me exclusively.
I think it may just be the threads you're running into people in. I know I've agree with you on some issues too.
 
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