The Rebellion in Heaven, was it sin?

[AdamjEdgar]

REv 12:7. Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Did the Lucifer and those angels who followed him, commit sin in the war in heaven?

The bible indicates the following in 1John

3: 1Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God. And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. 2Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears,a we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. 3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.b4Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness.c 5But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.7Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start.

When we read the 10 commandments we find the following laws that seem relevant here:
3You shall have no other gods before Me.a

4You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,

12Honor your father and mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.c

17You shall not coveth your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, or his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Did not Satan break all of the above laws when he rebelled against God? It seems to me that he did. Note what Satan said to Jesus in the wilderness...

Matthew 4:
8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9“All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”10“Away from Me, Satan!” Jesus declared. “For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’d”


from the above, i conclude that the first sin was not that of Adam and Eve, but Lucifer and his angels in Heaven!

 

[exchemist]

REv 12:7. Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Did the Lucifer and those angels who followed him, commit sin in the war in heaven?

The bible indicates the following in 1John

3: 1Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God. And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. 2Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears,a we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. 3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.b4Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness.c 5But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.7Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start.

When we read the 10 commandments we find the following laws that seem relevant here:
3You shall have no other gods before Me.a

4You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,

12Honor your father and mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.c

17You shall not coveth your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, or his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Did not Satan break all of the above laws when he rebelled against God? It seems to me that he did. Note what Satan said to Jesus in the wilderness...

Matthew 4:
8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9“All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”10“Away from Me, Satan!” Jesus declared. “For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’d”


from the above, i conclude that the first sin was not that of Adam and Eve, but Lucifer and his angels in Heaven!

And you find this remarkable?

 

[Kenny]

REv 12:7. Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Did the Lucifer and those angels who followed him, commit sin in the war in heaven?

The bible indicates the following in 1John

3: 1Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God. And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. 2Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears,a we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. 3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.b4Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness.c 5But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.7Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start.

When we read the 10 commandments we find the following laws that seem relevant here:
3You shall have no other gods before Me.a

4You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,

12Honor your father and mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.c

17You shall not coveth your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, or his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Did not Satan break all of the above laws when he rebelled against God? It seems to me that he did. Note what Satan said to Jesus in the wilderness...

Matthew 4:
8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9“All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”10“Away from Me, Satan!” Jesus declared. “For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’d”


from the above, i conclude that the first sin was not that of Adam and Eve, but Lucifer and his angels in Heaven!

I would agree. It might explain Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. (in Heaven)

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Adam was the first "human made in God's image and likeness" to sin on this earth.

 

[Father Heathen]

Perhaps Lucifer's rebellion was a noble one against tyranny.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Sin comes from temptation, but that old serpent is the accuser of mankind; mankind was tempted into knowledge of good and evil. Meaning man was persecuted for being lukewarm morally, and knowing it.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

I think also, note what James says...

1:5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But he must ask in faith, without doubting, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8He is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Clearly when Lucifer began to doubt in heaven, that suggests to me that his separation from God began in the moment of doubt...sin entered the universe at this point in time. This suggests that the need for salvation began long before Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of Eden...and this is a big deal. It destroys the argument that the 10 commandments written on tablets of stone at the time of Moses are only relevant to Judaism. Clearly, the transgression of the law is far more extensive than just breaking those 10 commandments. Perhaps its not the wording of the commandments that should be considered here, but the bigger picture...that perfect heavenly beings did not need the law explaining to them on tablets of stone. Prior to the flood i do not think mankind needed them either. Clearly after the flood a simple reminder was necessary...so they were spelled out rather explicitly, however, in heaven it was a universal understanding that did not need explanation.

To illustrate my point in this, which of the 10 commandments did Eve break when she took of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Answer...none. There is no "10 commandment" that says "do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". It was given as a commandment in the Garden to Adam after he was created in Genesis 2:16&17

And yet, Eves sin clearly resulted in death (eventually)...so she did transgress a law that was very obviously in existence at that time.

If we go back further, when Lucifer rebelled in Heaven, which law did he break? He obviously broke a law because he was cast out of heaven for breaking it and he lost his position as the highest of all the angels next to God and became that "ancient serpent" from that point forward.

 

[Balthazzar]

Ok, so humans were created ignorant. They/we learned/learn the difference between good and evil. It was a difficult lesson to learn and ongoing for everyone who would ever be born. Death is certain but life and difficulty are no less certain than death. This much is an obvious truth in life. We learn through our ability to understand ourselves and our needs. I'm hungry - I need food. I stink - I need a bath. I'm angry - ??????? Ooops!! Sorry Able ..

No man ... pops just kicked me out - Me and my brother got into an argument, I'm an outcast now - I was living good too. My pops got kicked out of his home a lot of years ago, but I'm alone. At least he had a woman with him. Grrrr!! Grrrr! I hate this!! I hate this!! Grrrr!!!

Life sucks then you die man. Grrr!!!

 

[Balthazzar]

10 commandments

1. You shall have no other gods before Me = I'm your boss - My rules -
2. You shall make no idols. = Don't make **** up and pretend someone one else is your boss or made you do it = I'm your boss - My rules
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. I'm your boss - It does no good to complain about it. My rules
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. You get to rest a day = I'm your boss - my rules - Get some rest. It's important
5. Honor your father and your mother. Your mom's your boss too - Listen to your mother - She's a pretty wise woman. I'm still the boss. My rules
6. You shall not murder. I loved both Cain and Abel, so don't murder - I'm the boss - My rules -
7. You shall not commit adultery. If you expect to keep a wife you best be faithful - Her rules and mine -
8. You shall not steal. If it's not yours don't take it! You get 1 day to rest. You have 6 more days to get what you need every week. Lide isn't easy, so figure out how to obtain without taking things from others.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. If it isn't true then then don't say it against someone because you're pissed. at them Don't be a little lying sack of **&&* - Oh, don't forget # 6 - You won't like it if you do. Of this I can assure you!
10. You shall not covet. If you like something, then figure out how to obtain it and quit crying about it. GROW UP!!!!

My rules I'm the boss so if you don't like them GET THE BLEEP OUT and do it your way!!!

If you break one you break them all - Don't forget it .

 

[wellwisher]

REv 12:7. Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Did the Lucifer and those angels who followed him, commit sin in the war in heaven?

The bible indicates the following in 1John

3: 1Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God. And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. 2Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears,a we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. 3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.b4Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness.c 5But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.7Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start.

When we read the 10 commandments we find the following laws that seem relevant here:
3You shall have no other gods before Me.a

4You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,

12Honor your father and mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.c

17You shall not coveth your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, or his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Did not Satan break all of the above laws when he rebelled against God? It seems to me that he did. Note what Satan said to Jesus in the wilderness...

Matthew 4:
8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9“All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”10“Away from Me, Satan!” Jesus declared. “For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’d”


from the above, i conclude that the first sin was not that of Adam and Eve, but Lucifer and his angels in Heaven!

My theory is connected to the basic imagery of God creating the heavens and earth in six days and rested on the seventh day. The question is how long did God rest? While God rested, who was in charge of his creation?

If you look at the first six days of creation, these are epic caliber creations; universe, sun and planets, life, species, etc. But after that, there is no epic creation again in the Bible, until Revelations. Mose and Jesus did miracles but not epic creation close to the first six days and God. In Revelations, epic starts again. There is a Divinely Bejeweled City of Jerusalem, descending from Heaven. Then a New Heaven and Earth appear at the very end of Revelations. It makes sense to me that the seventh day or God's rest lasted though the Old Testament and New Testament until deep into Revelations. God resting explains many concerns by the Atheists.

The human Sabbath, which is an image of heavenly things, requires humans do no work on the Sabbath. If things need to be done you either need to prep in advance, or hire someone who will do the work for you. This human reflection of heaven, tells us about God's Sabbath rest. Before God rested on the first Sabbath, he made provisions in the Garden of Eden, for Satan to tend to the earth and to Adam and Eve; humans, as God rested. Satan was the Lord of the Earth, condoned by Heaven and God, as God rested. When Satan gets the boot from Heaven, God is close to finishing his Sabbath rest. The hired hands are paid; Satan and 1/3 of the Angels, and God resumes creation.

When Jesus began his ministry, he went into the desert to fast and pray. He was visited by Satan, who among others things promises him all the power and wealth of the kingdoms of the earth if Jesus would bow down and serve Satan; Lord of the Earth. Had Jesus accepted the offer, he would have become the Messiah anticipated by the Jews and Israel; rich and powerful. But to do so he had to serve Satan; Messiah was based on works of the Lord of the Earth. Jesus declines the offer. Jesus does not want to serve Satan as his Messiah, but he wants to take over this job as Lord of the Earth. This begins a political conflict in heaven. When Jesus is dying on the cross and says, "why has God forsaken me", God is still resting and doing no work. Satan has other plans as his hired hand.

In Revelations, before Satan finally gets the boot, there is a Divine Woman in Heaven who is in the pains of labor about to give birth. Satan is near the woman, waiting to devour her child as soon as it is born. However, her baby is caught and taken up to God and to his throne for protection, as God rested; Guarded by Michael the ArchAngel. Satan is then thrown from heaven for these final actions. He chases the Divine women, as she descends from heaven to find her safe place on the earth. Once she is there, safe, Satan leaves her and wages war against others. In a sense, the Divine Woman escorts Satan away from heaven back to Earth. She is the white lion with wings of an eagle; wisdom that is safe from Satan.

Satan was condoned by God and heaven until he gets the boot; hired hand. After that Satan and law of good and evil are no longer divinely sanctioned. However, the humans are not clear about this change, but most people still think Satan; Lord of the Earth, and law is still divinely sanctioned, and that Satan, acting on behalf of God, is God. This leads to all types of human problems, culminating in the Antichrist and the False Prophet. They intend to make drastic self serving changes to law and times. Heaven comes to earth to settle the situation; heaven open, and the divine change becomes clear.

This symbolism is about an update in the brain's operating system that can allow peace on earth. It deals with a subroutine that has formed in the human brain induced by the polarization and repressed evil created by law.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

We learn through our ability to understand ourselves and our needs. I'm hungry - I need food. I stink - I need a bath.

This is empiricism. We learn through trial-and-error what makes us happy and how to make such things happen while avoiding the opposite. The problem arises when we accept received moral values, ideas that haven't passed an empirical test, and we never modify them however counterproductive they may be, because trial-and-error is off limits there and is a cause for sharp rebuke in Abrahamic circles. You are angrily accused of trying to usurp God's power, when actually it was the other way around if they convinced you to forfeit your autonomy and substitute their god.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me = I'm your boss - My rules -

I can agree to the first part, but not your addition. I have no gods. Of course, your link says a god is whatever has priority in one's life, and by that definition, yes, I am my own god, since I'm the boss and it's my rules that hold sway in this head.

2. You shall make no idols. = Don't make **** up and pretend someone one else is your boss

This one I already follow.

3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. I'm your boss - It does no good to complain about it. My rules
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. You get to rest a day = I'm your boss - my rules - Get some rest. It's important
5. Honor your father and your mother. Your mom's your boss too - Listen to your mother - She's a pretty wise woman. I'm still the boss. My rules

It's remarkable to see such trivial commandments among the top ten, although I have a hypothesis to account for the command to stop laboring every seventh day for a day, and why the biblical creation myth has a timetable in it, which may be unique among creation myths. Who would benefit from such a commandment?

What does honor mean here? Obey, as in honor a commitment? I doesn't mean celebrate or recognize as with a school honor roll or throwing an anniversary party, so I guess it's obey. Does it apply only to minor children, or are adult children also expected to continue obeying their parents until one of them dies? Do we think that children will be more obedient after their parents read them the commandment? And why does this take one of the top ten spots? Are bratty children a major societal concern? They don't bother me except at odd times in restaurants and in airplanes. I'd rather see a commandment for parents to police their unruly children.

6. You shall not murder. I loved both Cain and Abel, so don't murder - I'm the boss - My rules -
7. You shall not commit adultery. If you expect to keep a wife you best be faithful - Her rules and mine -
8. You shall not steal. If it's not yours don't take it! You get 1 day to rest. You have 6 more days to get what you need every week. Lide isn't easy, so figure out how to obtain without taking things from others.
9.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. If it isn't true then then don't say it against someone because you're pissed. at them Don't be a little lying sack of **&&* - Oh, don't forget # 6 - You won't like it if you do. Of this I can assure you!

Good people don't need to be commanded to not to murder, betray, steal, or lie.

10. You shall not covet. If you like something, then figure out how to obtain it and quit crying about it. GROW UP!!!!

Here's another head scratcher. What's the problem with coveting, or wanting? I coveted a good education and a life of love and happiness.

Maybe it meant to not be jealous, which is different. I once heard that envy is when I want what you have, and jealously is that I hate or resent you for having it. I see no problem with coveting ("I want the car on the commercial") or envy ("I want a car like my neighbor's"), just jealousy ("Good, they couldn't make the payments and lost the car").

My rules I'm the boss so if you don't like them GET THE BLEEP OUT and do it your way!!!

I opt for B - I'll do it my way.

 

[Balthazzar]

This is empiricism. We learn through trial-and-error what makes us happy and how to make such things happen while avoiding the opposite. The problem arises when we accept received moral values, ideas that haven't passed an empirical test, and we never modify them however counterproductive they may be, because trial-and-error is off limits there and is a cause for sharp rebuke in Abrahamic circles. You are angrily accused of trying to usurp God's power, when actually it was the other way around if they convinced you to forfeit your autonomy and substitute their god.

I can agree to the first part, but not your addition. I have no gods. Of course, your link says a god is whatever has priority in one's life, and by that definition, yes, I am my own god, since I'm the boss and it's my rules that hold sway in this head.

This one I already follow.

It's remarkable to see such trivial commandments among the top ten, although I have a hypothesis to account for the command to stop laboring every seventh day for a day, and why the biblical creation myth has a timetable in it, which may be unique among creation myths. Who would benefit from such a commandment?

What does honor mean here? Obey, as in honor a commitment? I doesn't mean celebrate or recognize as with a school honor roll or throwing an anniversary party, so I guess it's obey. Does it apply only to minor children, or are adult children also expected to continue obeying their parents until one of them dies? Do we think that children will be more obedient after their parents read them the commandment? And why does this take one of the top ten spots? Are bratty children a major societal concern? They don't bother me except at odd times in restaurants and in airplanes. I'd rather see a commandment for parents to police their unruly children.

Good people don't need to be commanded to not to murder, betray, steal, or lie.

Here's another head scratcher. What's the problem with coveting, or wanting? I coveted a good education and a life of love and happiness.

Maybe it meant to not be jealous, which is different. I once heard that envy is when I want what you have, and jealously is that I hate or resent you for having it. I see no problem with coveting ("I want the car on the commercial") or envy ("I want a car like my neighbor's"), just jealousy ("Good, they couldn't make the payments and lost the car").

I opt for B - I'll do it my way.

The point may have escaped your comprehension. You live in a home, a community, or say you work somewhere for someone or a company, # 1 reflects that concept and required need for those particulars. The rest follow suit accordingly. The phrase many mansions rings a bell, and very likely due to not being satisfied with status quo realities, hence we have our departures and new movements, societal constructs, families, business ethic models, etc. The 10 are basic rules set up by specific entities, whether singular, family, or community oriented. That's how life works. We have that option and sometimes, particularly when in situations that involve larger communities such as larger governments, etc. and in the case of the rebellion in heaven and the war that ensued, we end up with what we've experienced on earth for like ever. I prefer the democratic process over war, but that's not always an option. As kids, and in relation to being dissatified with our home life and honoring mom and pops rules, well ... We typically end up leaving home anyway. That too is part of life. Growing up, and creating families, communities, and work places, etc. for ourselves is expected from us as autonomous beings. We create our own, more satisfactory to and for ourselves than what we've previously known ... At least, this is typically the goal. God was the boss, and in a universal sense, in terms of cause and effect and natural consequence of action, still is and always will be. We choose for ourselves what WE want out of life for ourselves, our families, and our surrounding communities. Democracy is about community involvement and sometimes our chosen route becomes unacceptable to ourselves and others, which is why we so often end up in conflict. Is that fair enough to satisfy a non God speak type of character you seem to have?

 

[Brickjectivity]

from the above, i conclude that the first sin was not that of Adam and Eve, but Lucifer and his angels in Heaven!

I'd like you to imagine Time in the book Revelation as a loop, like the loop on an 8-track cassette. There is currently war in heaven. There are seals and trumps and angels and bowls and a woman clothed with the Sun. Avoid taking its Revelation's comments about time literally. Instead take literally the phrase "This calls for patience on the part of the saints."

• [Rev 1:9 NIV] 9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
• [Rev 14:12 NIV] 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Imagine that the seven churches are here, today; and decide which church are you in? Think of the events in the book as a description of what you experience in your own life in Christ. Think of this as the war in heaven.

Are you going to triumph through the blood of the lamb, through the word of your testimony and through not valuing your own life? Will you be patient as the book begs you to be? Imagine that you are even now in the great tribulation living out the words of Jesus who says "In the world you have tribulation, but take courage. I have overcome the world." (John 16:33)

Or will you rebel? If so that is the sin of rebellion that Revelation is talking about, from a point of view.

• [Rev 7:14 NIV] 14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
• [Rev 12:11 NIV] 11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You live in a home, a community, or say you work somewhere for someone or a company, # 1 reflects that concept and required need for those particulars.

You didn't address any of my comments, much less attempt to rebut them, which is understood as having no rebuttal, which in academic circles such as scientific peer review and courtroom trials is understood as indicating that the unrebutted claim is correct, since correct claims cannot be successfully rebutted.

I suppose #1 refers to the first commandment, and I don't know how you are connecting it to the community or workplace. What required need? What particulars?

The 10 are basic rules set up by specific entities, whether singular, family, or community oriented.

I still don't see your point. They're somebody else's rules. Some are also mine, but that's coincidence.

God was the boss, and in a universal sense, in terms of cause and effect and natural consequence of action, still is and always will be.

I have no reason to believe that. Neither do you, but maybe you don't require one.

Democracy is about community involvement and sometimes our chosen route becomes unacceptable to ourselves and others, which is why we so often end up in conflict. Is that fair enough to satisfy a non God speak type of character you seem to have?

A no-God speak type of character? Did you mean atheist, skeptic, empiricist, or critical thinker? Shall I consider you a God speak type of character?

And what does democracy have to do with Abrahamic religion? As you note, God gives commandments. There are no surveys or elections in heaven or hell, just an authoritarian deity who doesn't count hands, and with whom there is no appeal or parole.

 

[Balthazzar]

You didn't address any of my comments, much less attempt to rebut them, which is understood as having no rebuttal, which in academic circles such as scientific peer review and courtroom trials is understood as indicating that the unrebutted claim is correct, since correct claims cannot be successfully rebutted.

I suppose #1 refers to the first commandment, and I don't know how you are connecting it to the community or workplace. What required need? What particulars?

I still don't see your point. They're somebody else's rules. Some are also mine, but that's coincidence.

I have no reason to believe that. Neither do you, but maybe you don't require one.

A no-God speak type of character? Did you mean atheist, skeptic, empiricist, or critical thinker? Shall I consider you a God speak type of character?

And what does democracy have to do with Abrahamic religion? As you note, God gives commandments. There are no surveys or elections in heaven or hell, just an authoritarian deity who doesn't count hands, and with whom there is no appeal or parole.

Here's the thing and it's important. Lets say heaven was home and the kids wouldn't follow the rules and ended up coming against the parental structure and those who enforced it. The kids were kicked out of their home. The work-place operates under similar paradigms, as do communities and governments. There are rules in place that those in charge expect to be followed by the "kids". If the kids don't agree, particularly in the workplace and refuse to follow them, then they would likely be fired which would force them to find other types of employment better suited for their "personal" needs.

I come from a bible literate background and I've noticed some very natural and practical things about what it teaches. The term God is un-suitable for you, so I utilized other structures to illustrate a point. We live in a predominately religious world that has been this way for 1000's of years. I'm also an American who values the freedom of peaceful religious practice. Replace the term "heaven" with "home" or "work place" and the term "God" or "Lord" with "boss" or "bosses" or "mom" and "pops", and you may understand my point a little better. If not, and you continue to resist the obvious by holding to your own views of what you think God or heaven or hell are or should be, then I don't know what else to say or write to help you understand MY PERSONAL position.

 

[Twilight Hue]

REv 12:7. Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Did the Lucifer and those angels who followed him, commit sin in the war in heaven?

The bible indicates the following in 1John

3: 1Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God. And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. 2Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears,a we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. 3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.b4Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness.c 5But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.7Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start.

When we read the 10 commandments we find the following laws that seem relevant here:
3You shall have no other gods before Me.a

4You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,

12Honor your father and mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.c

17You shall not coveth your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, or his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Did not Satan break all of the above laws when he rebelled against God? It seems to me that he did. Note what Satan said to Jesus in the wilderness...

Matthew 4:
8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9“All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”10“Away from Me, Satan!” Jesus declared. “For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’d”


from the above, i conclude that the first sin was not that of Adam and Eve, but Lucifer and his angels in Heaven!

Which means Heaven is now tainted forever.

God is dead.